Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad, 

Rev 6:12...."the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood and the stars of the sky fell"

Mathew 24:29....." the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky"

So in both of these scriptures, what do we see? 

Both say the sun does not give its light....... correct?....sun being darkened....became black... cannot give light.

Both say the moon does not give its light....correct?....moon becoming like blood cannot give light.

Both say the stars fell from the sky.....correct?

If this is the logic a person uses to differentiate the same event, then I could just as well say that there were 4 resurrections of Jesus. Each Gospel writer describes something different. So, it must be different...RIGHT?

                          In Mathew 28:2...there was ONE angel, sitting on a stone, outside the tomb

                          In Mark 16:5....there was a young man in a white robe, sitting, in the tomb, at the right

                          In Luke 24:4...TWO men in dazzling clothing, standing

                          In John 20:12... Two angels in white, sitting, one at the head and one at the feet 

How would ANYONE be able to prove a sign of a blood moon unless they SAW the moon and saw that it was red colored?

On the other hand, people could LOOK up at a dark sky (when it is suppose to be midday and LOOK for a sun or a moon, and not see either of them. They they would KNOW this is the sign written about. One moon is SEEN, the other is NOT SEEN, but both are a sign; just a different sign, at a different time, for a different purpose.

Argue on - it will do no good. You are simply trying to prove the truth is if it were not true. No amount of effort on your part will turn two signs that come over 7 years apart into one. 

Just the fact that one is in Rev. 6 and the other AFTER the days of tribulation should be proof enough they are two signs separated by 7 years. But no, that is not enough for you. Just MOVE the 6th seal to the end and you solve that problem!  WRONG. The 6th seal comes before any part of the 70th week, and before any part of "the tribulation" and surely before the days of GT.

On the other hand, the darkened sun and moon come after the entire week has ended. 

[Spock]

16 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

I agree we go pre-trib, and I will show you through the scriptures why I believe that.

Marilyn.

He Marilyn,

About a week ago you said you should me clear and convincing biblical evidence for why you believe the rapture is pre Trib. But, I think you forgot that purpose when you start talking about THRONES with LAmad. 

If you don’t mind. I am still looking forward to reading your evidence (remember, excluding evidence that Daniels 70 weeks are only for Jews so the Church has to be gone). 

In addition, if you would also like to show my why a MID TRIB RAPTURE IS IMPOSSIBLE according to the scriptures, that would even be better. Surprisingly, no one has been able to provide the evidence that will make me back off of this “proposed” timeline. Even our talk about the RESTRAINER seems to lend more support to a Mid Trib rapture. (Before the man of sin can be revealed at the abomination, the restrainer has to step aside. If the church is the one stepping aside, it fits to say a Mid Trib rapture is possible.) 

Anyhow, I just want you to know, I havent forgotten this and am still waiting patiently.

cheers,

spock

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, JohnD said:

Okay. What are the seals?

Hitler?

World War?

The advent of telecommunications?

You will find the interpretation of these and the bowls applied to may subjective interpretations and opinions throughout history since John penned the Apocalypse. 

Some thought the Protestant Reformation was one of the seals being opened.

Personally I believe (but am not dogmatic about it) that Constantine was the riider on a white horse with a bow and no arrows. 

No doubt the seals and the bowls will align with the events centered on the defiling of the Tribulation Temple, but rather than being indicative prophecies, they appear (to me) to be affirmative / authentication prophecies.

The Temple is God's time piece on planet Earth ever since Solomon (with David's help) went against God's original design not to build one*.

Zechariah 6:12–13 (AV)
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Matthew 16:18 (AV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Corinthians 3:16 (AV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

* 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (AV)
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

But just like the monarch (1 Samuel 8 )  God condescended to grant the people their wishes and to deal with them through that format / venue from that point on. 

Note in its dedication Solomon broke nearly every Levitical law for sacrificing to the LORD. And there is no mention of the Temple in:

Hebrews 8:5 (AV)
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The seals are exactly what they SAY they are: seals on a document - to prevent any of the events from taking place UNTIL someone worthy was found to open them.  Satan probably thought he was safe, for NO ONE had ever escaped out of hell. I guess he was SURE no one would ever be found worthy to open those seals. He was wrong. 

So what ARE they exactly? When seal one was opened, God could legally send out the church to take the gospel to the world.

When seals 2-4 was opened then Satan could legally do those things listed to try and stop the gospel from getting out of that 1/4 of the earth with Jerusalem as the center.  He did, but he failed. He could use wars, famines, pestilences, etc.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. Satan could legally murder believers.  After all, they were in HIS world. 

Keep in mind, this is all a countdown to Satan being dethroned. 

Seal 6 is the start of judgment. We are not there yet.

I really don't care what people a thousand years ago thought about the seals. I know what they are. There was VERY LITTLE revelation knowledge of the word of God before Martin Luther. But since then, year after year, God reveals more. 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

He Marilyn,

About a week ago you said you should me clear and convincing biblical evidence for why you believe the rapture is pre Trib. But, I think you forgot that purpose when you start talking about THRONES with LAmad. 

If you don’t mind. I am still looking forward to reading your evidence (remember, excluding evidence that Daniels 70 weeks are only for Jews so the Church has to be gone). 

In addition, if you would also like to show my why a MID TRIB RAPTURE IS IMPOSSIBLE according to the scriptures, that would even be better. Surprisingly, no one has been able to provide the evidence that will make me back off of this “proposed” timeline. Even our talk about the RESTRAINER seems to lend more support to a Mid Trib rapture. (Before the man of sin can be revealed at the abomination, the restrainer has to step aside. If the church is the one stepping aside, it fits to say a Mid Trib rapture is possible.) 

Anyhow, I just want you to know, I havent forgotten this and am still waiting patiently.

cheers,

spock

Hi Spock,

So glad you want to hear the rest of what I wanted to say. Now I realise that others want to discuss and thus my thoughts can get lost in the middle of those. So...I am preparing my notes and will post them on my own thread, probably when most are asleep and I can get a run of posts for people to read. In a few days or so I hope to lay it all out for you. I will do the diagrams and try to make it succinct as possible.

As to the `mid trib rapture` you are thinking about, will do that later.

Glad you hadn`t forgotten amid the rush, and I hadn`t either. I appreciate you taking the time to hear me out.

regards, Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

So God shakes the heavens and earth and says, "once more," and then he does it again and says, "once more," and then He does it again and says "once more"...... Strange for I don`t read that ANYWHERE in God`s word.

Marilyn.

Now, Marilyn, you know this is not true: you read of a shaking at the 6th seal, and you read of a shaking at the 7th vial.  You SHOULD know that it is impossible for these to be two versions of one shaking. TIME will not allow that.

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The seals are exactly what they SAY they are: seals on a document - to prevent any of the events from taking place UNTIL someone worthy was found to open them.  Satan probably thought he was safe, for NO ONE had ever escaped out of hell. I guess he was SURE no one would ever be found worthy to open those seals. He was wrong. 

So what ARE they exactly? When seal one was opened, God could legally send out the church to take the gospel to the world.

When seals 2-4 was opened then Satan could legally do those things listed to try and stop the gospel from getting out of that 1/4 of the earth with Jerusalem as the center.  He did, but he failed. He could use wars, famines, pestilences, etc.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. Satan could legally murder believers.  After all, they were in HIS world. 

Keep in mind, this is all a countdown to Satan being dethroned. 

Seal 6 is the start of judgment. We are not there yet.

I really don't care what people a thousand years ago thought about the seals. I know what they are. There was VERY LITTLE revelation knowledge of the word of God before Martin Luther. But since then, year after year, God reveals more. 

I am not falling into the trap of suppositional arguments.

If you are going to spiritualize this and literalize that in your interpretation of prophecy then it is a matter of debate between two opinions only.

Wormwood is it a literal star?

You say the seals are just what they say they are.

So it cannot be Chernobyl. Can it? 

Unless you are doing the spiritualize this and literalize that game.

[JohnD]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You can disagree till the cows come home, but SEVERAL of the first translations into English used the word Departing.  Perhaps you should dig a little deeper. I am talking about men who translated the entire bible! These men KNEW Greek.

The question is, CAN this word mean something else?  It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what STrong's says about "apo:

of separation

of local separation, 

after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole

where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance

physical, of distance of place

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES. 

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

If you are willing to go to the mat to defend your belief despite the evidence to the contrary... that's your business.

To a point, I will contend with such an one to hopefully show them the evidence to the contrary. 

But if they insist on refusing to believe a brick wall is solid and that they should not bang their head against it...

then I ignore them and bless them with a God bless you... bang away.

 

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Hi iamlamad,

We`ve had a good discussion but anymore would just be going over old ground.

regards, Marilyn.

[The Light]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If seals are sealing a book, then ALL seals must be opened before the book can be opened. Seal 6 is no exception. 

 

Hi LA,

You need to rightly divide the WORD. How is it possible that all seals need to be open before the book can be opened.

It says when the first seal is opened the rider on the white horse goes forth conquering and to conquer. As each seal is opened an event happens. For you to say that all the seals need to be opened before the book can be opened is just wrong.

 

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, The Light said:

Hi LA,

You need to rightly divide the WORD. How is it possible that all seals need to be open before the book can be opened.

It says when the first seal is opened the rider on the white horse goes forth conquering and to conquer. As each seal is opened an event happens. For you to say that all the seals need to be opened before the book can be opened is just wrong.

Back then, "books" were actually "scrolls." This scroll was sealed with 7 seals. Their purpose was to prevent just ANYONE from getting that book open. Understand, once the book gets opened, it is the countdown to Satan losing his place as the god of this world.  He has held that position since Adam.  We can make an educated guess that he demanded this book be sealed.  Notice, ONLY the "redeemer" would be worthy to take the book and open the seals - and to become the Redeemer, it must be a MAN, and that MAN must escape death and hell. I am sure Satan was confident that no man ever would be found. After all, in 4000 years of history, not one human escaped out of hades permanantly. (a few were raised from the dead to die again.)

Yes, events happen for every seal. But that is the point: these events would be ILLEGAL until that seal is opened.  God wanted to start a church. Satan then wanted to be able to stop the church. This is a LEGAL DOCUMENT from heaven.  Our God is going to kick Satan off his throne, but do it LEGALLY.  First, all seven seals must be opened. Then, and only then, finally, the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments. Satan never thought the book could be opened. He never thought any man ever would be found worthy to open or break these seals so the book could get opened.  He was wrong. Jesus lived a sinless life, overcame death and became our Redeemer, and was then found worthy to take the book and begin opening the seals. He began that as soon as He ascended into heaven. He opened the first 5 seals in a short period of time.  

The church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seals all this time. I do hope you now understand a seal.  Have you ever watched the old classic movies, like Ben Hur, Demetrius and the Gladiators, the Robe?  I remember seeing a sealed document in one of those movies. It would have the king's mark from his ring in the seal. The truth is, the misunderstanding has been on your side.