The Hebrews Roots Movement

[BibleGuy]

24 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Really.  So DNA descendants of tribes, could change their tribe?  A descendant of Manasseh could decide he wanted to be a member of Reuben or Zebulun? Wouldn't his "new" tribe have to approve him as a member?  I kinda think Yeshua will appoint saved individuals to a tribe?  That's if there actually are separate "tribes" in the Kingdom. 

I do believe one will need to be an Israelite - to enter the New Jerusalem, which does not "descend" until all sin is cleansed from the earth. 

I used to puzzle over Ezekiel 44:9, about circumcision of "the flesh".  Until I realized that we will ALL be "circumcised in our flesh" at the Glorious Return, by Yeshua.  The old "flesh" will be gone, and we will receive our new spiritual bodies.  It means that only those with the new spiritual body will be able to enter God's future "Sanctuary". 

Ezekiel 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary (Eze 44:9 KJV)

Joshua (Yeshua) "circumcised the people" after he led the people over the Jordan which "rolled back as a scroll".  Then they ate the Passover.  

Jesus (Yeshua) will "circumcise" His redeemed people, as He leads them up through the sky that is "rolled back as a scroll" (Rev 6:14 and Isaiah 34:4).  Then He will eat the Passover, new with us in the Kingdom. 

"So DNA descendants of tribes, could change their tribe?  "

I'm not persuaded we have distinct "DNA descendants of tribes" any more.

And, I'm referring to those aliens/strangers/foreigners who join Israel...THEY are evidently free to join whichever tribe they prefer.

 

"A descendant of Manasseh could decide he wanted to be a member of Reuben or Zebulun?"

I'm referring to those aliens/strangers/foreigners who join Israel...THEY are evidently free to join whichever tribe they prefer.

 

"I kinda think Yeshua will appoint saved individuals to a tribe?"

Yes, that's another possibility...but Eze. 47:23 does not show Yeshua doing the "appointing".  It rather appears to suggest that aliens can choose.

 

"I do believe one will need to be an Israelite - to enter the New Jerusalem, which does not "descend" until all sin is cleansed from the earth. "

May well be true, as far as I can tell...

 

"I used to puzzle over Ezekiel 44:9, about circumcision of "the flesh".  Until I realized that we will ALL be "circumcised in our flesh" at the Glorious Return, by Yeshua.  The old "flesh" will be gone, and we will receive our new spiritual bodies.  It means that only those with the new spiritual body will be able to enter God's future "Sanctuary". "

Rather, Dt.30:1-8 confirms Torah will be 100% obeyed by Israelites at that time....so even those Israelites in regular physical bodies will be circumcised (given Lev.12:3)....

 

blessings...

 

 

[BeauJangles]

13 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Howdy!

I already stated that I have no idea about Jewish DNA...and your question regarding "Judaism" was ambiguous (given various definitions of JUDAISMS)...so I was hoping you'd clarify your question, so I could answer more precisely.

blessings...

 

Sooo, you're either Jewish or you aren't. One thing that's conclusive, is you're not going to give me a straight answer concerning this. Okay, that's fine. It is a bit dodgy, but at least you're friendly about it. God bless you!   

[Resurrection Priest]

8 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

"Even Peter had a vision from the Lord, and he no longer had to remain kosher due to his commision to the Gentiles. Was he then in violation of the tanakh? What about that? "

I'm glad you asked me about that!  This question comes up A LOT.  And it's a common mistake....I used to make the same mistake....so I understand where you're coming from...

 

Ac. 10 has Peter telling us the MEANING of the vision....it's about the DUDE....not the FOOD!

See look: "...I should not call any MAN unholy or unclean" (Ac. 10:28).

And, Peter CONTINUES to apply Lev. 11 to you (1Pe.1:16). 

So Peter CONTINUED to obey Lev. 11 and required it of others as well.

I agree.  The vision was ABOUT the Gentiles not being "unclean".  They were definitely "unclean" in the eyes of the Jews.  Had been for centuries.  It was actually "unlawful" for a Jew to keep company with, eat with, or go to one of another nation (Acts 10:28). 

Question for BibleGuy:  Was this a "change of the law"?  Or was that something added by zealous Pharisees?  (Acts 11:2-3). 

Acts 11:2 "So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers took issue with him, 3 saying, 'You went to uncircumcised men and shared a meal with them!'" (NET)

Exodus 23:32, and 34:12-15, and Deut 7:3-4, and Deut 23:6 suggest Israelites were to make no covenants with "strangers" or "aliens".  In the Ancient Middle East, to eat a meal with another man implied covenant, especially if the shared the salt.  The believing Pharisees from Jerusalem certainly put the fear into Peter.  He stopped eating with the Gentile believers.  Paul rebuked him for that. 

Galatians 2:11-14 However, when Cephas came to Antioch, then I did oppose him to his face since he was manifestly in the wrong. 12 Before certain people from James came, he used to eat with gentiles; but as soon as these came, he backed out and kept apart from them, out of fear of the circumcised. 13 And the rest of the Jews put on the same act as he did, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 When I saw, though, that their behaviour was not true to the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of all of them, 'Since you, though you are a Jew, live like the gentiles and not like the Jews, how can you compel the gentiles to live like the Jews?'

In the vision of the sheet with the unclean animals, the LORD used unclean animals, to represent unclean Gentiles.  He was about to command Peter to preach the Gospel to some Gentiles, and to baptize them into Christ Jesus. 

The only question I have is about the words "whom God has cleansed". 

Did the LORD "cleanse" ALL GENTILES, by His death - or only those who believed?  Would that mean believers of "Israel" should still not "eat with" or enter into "covenants" with non-believers.   

[BibleGuy]

2 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Sooo, you're either Jewish or you aren't. One thing that's conclusive, is you're not going to give me a straight answer concerning this. Okay, that's fine. It is a bit dodgy, but at least you're friendly about it. God bless you!   

Not dodgy at all my friend!

There are MANY mutually exclusive definitions of "JEW".

1. Jew by DNA

2. Jew by religious family affiliation (i.e., your mother or grandmother was "Jewish" in some sense)

3. Jew by personal religious practice (regardless of family affiliation).

4. Jew by virtue of companionship with Judah (Eze. 37:16)

5. Spiritual "Jew" by virtue of being grafted into Israel as a fellow Israelite (Eph.2:12;Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8;Rom.11).

 

You know, there's a silly joke...goes something like this:

A guy stands up in the airplane and says: "Every Jew stand up NOW!  I plan to shoot you!"

Then, a man in the plane stands up and says: "But excuse me, sir, that is a difficult question."

 

Terrible joke...but it get's the point across.

I'm not dodgy.

I'm SENSITIVE to the plethora of definitions out there.

 

For me personally, I don't view myself as a "Jew"...but as an ISRAELITE (i.e., along the lines of #5 above....but using the term "Isarelite", not "Jew").

 

After all, Jews are Israelites...but NOT all Israelites are Jews.

ISRAEL is greater than Judah.

 

Feel free to state your definition so I can address your question with greater precision.

 

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

7 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I agree.  The vision was ABOUT the Gentiles not being "unclean".  They were definitely "unclean" in the eyes of the Jews.  Had been for centuries.  It was actually "unlawful" for a Jew to keep company with, eat with, or go to one of another nation (Acts 10:28). 

Question for BibleGuy:  Was this a "change of the law"?  Or was that something added by zealous Pharisees?  (Acts 11:2-3). 

Acts 11:2 "So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers took issue with him, 3 saying, 'You went to uncircumcised men and shared a meal with them!'" (NET)

Exodus 23:32, and 34:12-15, and Deut 7:3-4, and Deut 23:6 suggest Israelites were to make no covenants with "strangers" or "aliens".  In the Ancient Middle East, to eat a meal with another man implied covenant, especially if the shared the salt.  The believing Pharisees from Jerusalem certainly put the fear into Peter.  He stopped eating with the Gentile believers.  Paul rebuked him for that. 

Galatians 2:11-14 However, when Cephas came to Antioch, then I did oppose him to his face since he was manifestly in the wrong. 12 Before certain people from James came, he used to eat with gentiles; but as soon as these came, he backed out and kept apart from them, out of fear of the circumcised. 13 And the rest of the Jews put on the same act as he did, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 When I saw, though, that their behaviour was not true to the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of all of them, 'Since you, though you are a Jew, live like the gentiles and not like the Jews, how can you compel the gentiles to live like the Jews?'

In the vision of the sheet with the unclean animals, the LORD used unclean animals, to represent unclean Gentiles.  He was about to command Peter to preach the Gospel to some Gentiles, and to baptize them into Christ Jesus. 

The only question I have is about the words "whom God has cleansed". 

Did the LORD "cleanse" ALL GENTILES, by His death - or only those who believed?  Would that mean believers of "Israel" should still not "eat with" or enter into "covenants" with non-believers.   

 

"It was actually "unlawful" for a Jew to keep company with, eat with, or go to one of another nation (Acts 10:28). "

That's not Torah law...that's bogus anti-Torah traditional Jewish law that forbids foreigners to associate with Israelites.

Is. 56 confirms that foreigners are WELCOME to join Israel (Is.56:6-7).  Jesus UPHOLDS Is.56 (Mk.11:17).  Let's obey JESUS' law...(i.e., Torah!)....not the bogus anti-Torah Jewish traditional law that CONTRADICTS Torah (Mk.7:8-9,13;Mt:23:23).

 

"Question for BibleGuy:  Was this a "change of the law"?  Or was that something added by zealous Pharisees?  (Acts 11:2-3). "

I'd say that's not Torah law...that's bogus anti-Torah traditional Jewish law that forbids foreigners to associate with Israelites.

So, the Torah did not change.  Rather, MEN created anti-Torah laws which CONTRADICT Torah....same thing in the Jewish establishment today.

 

"Exodus 23:32, and 34:12-15, and Deut 7:3-4, and Deut 23:6 suggest Israelites were to make no covenants with "strangers" or "aliens". "

Careful!  Ex. 23:32, context, refers to " the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites ", not ALL strangers and aliens.

Ex. 34:12-15 refers to the preexisting "inhabitants of the land", not ALL strangers and aliens.

Dt. 7:3-4 refers to " the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you", not to ALL strangers and aliens.

Dt. 23:6 refers (in context!) to the Ammonite or Moabite, not to ALL strangers and aliens.

 

After all, Dt. 29:11-12 confirms that ALIENS properly JOIN into the Torah covenant with God.

Again, Dt. 31:12 confirms that ALIENS properly JOIN into the Torah covenant with God.

Again, Is. 56 confirms that FOREIGNERS properly JOIN the Torah covenant with God.  And Jesus upholds Is. 56 for ALL people of ALL nations.

Thus, Jesus invites ALL people to join Israel, because it's ALWAYS been that way.

That's the plan.....use Israel to evangelize the planet....(Dt.4:6-8;Is.42:6;49:6;60:3;Rev.21:24)

 

" In the Ancient Middle East, to eat a meal with another man implied covenant, especially if the shared the salt.  The believing Pharisees from Jerusalem certainly put the fear into Peter.  He stopped eating with the Gentile believers.  Paul rebuked him for that. "

Paul rebuked Peter....because Torah-obedient Paul rebuked Peter's observance of an ANTI-TORAH rule.

 

"Did the LORD "cleanse" ALL GENTILES, by His death - or only those who believed? "

Well, the blood cleanses us (1Jn.1:7) IF we walk in the light (1Jn.1:7)...and the Torah is our light (Ps.119:105)....and NOT all Gentiles walk in the light....so NOT all Gentiles are cleansed, of course.

 

"Would that mean believers of "Israel" should still not "eat with" or enter into "covenants" with non-believers."

Well, we do have 2Cor.6:14 and 2Jn.1:10 and 2Th.3:14.

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

6 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Rather, Dt.30:1-8 confirms Torah will be 100% obeyed by Israelites at that time....so even those Israelites in regular physical bodies will be circumcised (given Lev.12:3)....

Why would ANY "Isrealites" still be in mortal physical bodies, during the millennium.  I thought we are ALL CHANGED and made immortal at the Glorious Return.

Those who are not Christs, will not survive the plagues that follow the Glorious Return - especially if they were of Israel.  That would mean they were hypocrites - just Jews on the outside - not the inside. 

    Isaiah 24:6 “Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, and those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left”.

        NOTE: The “few men” who “are left” will be the redeemed, who are removed from this earth before it is consumed by the last plagues.

The last "bowl" plagues of Rev Cpt 16 take everything necessary for human life.  Every living creature in the sea dies.  There goes the algae that makes 75% of our oxygen.  One third of all trees and all grass was "burned up" by the first trumpet plague.  (Not much oxygen from plants, or food.)  The sea and all rivers become like blood.  (There goes the food chain.)  The sun scorches men with fire (maybe a gamma ray burst), or maybe because the earth is "moved out of its place (Job 9:6, Rev 6:14).  The kingdom of the Beast goes pitch dark.  Since everyone without the seal of God will worship the Beast, and the Beast is given authority over all nations and tongues - that makes his "kingdom" worldwide.  Looks like the sun stops shining.  

    Jeremiah 4:23-26 [After the great day of the Lord] “I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.  I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth.  I beheld, and indeed there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.  I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down at the presence of the LORD, By His fierce anger.” 

Just how much time will pass between the earth being "burned up" (consumed by fire) and the earth being healed/restored/made new - I don't know.  Could be 1000 years.  Could be just 7 days.  HE created it in the first place, in just 7 days.  "He spoke and it was done."  "He commanded and it stood fast." 

I believe the "saved" will be removed from this planet by Christ at His glorious return (just like Lot was removed from Sodom).  They will stand on the Sea of Glass before the Father's throne.  The earth will remain "desolate" for at least some time period.  Jeremiah did say that desolation is "rest" (Lev 26:33-35).  At some point Yeshua will heal this planet and Israel redeemed will be returned to this planet, and to "the land".  They will rebuild and restore.  They will build Ezekiel's Temple in preparation for the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" (Rev 20:5). 

[Still Alive]

56 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Not sure....but if Heiser thinks that....then it only confirms that Heiser doesn't understand that field of research.

Heiser does have some interesting things to say....I thought his observation that Paul might be referencing Enoch in Galatians was quite intriguing...

 

Now that I think about it, I don't think he really gets into it that much regarding Hebrew Roots. It seems to be a bit of a "fringe issue" with him.

[Resurrection Priest]

23 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Melchizedek laws need not SUBSTITUTE for Levitical laws...because BOTH can function simultaneously.

After all, Jesus CONTINUES as an ongoing Melchizedek priest who will RESTORE the Levitical Priesthood (Mal.3:4)...so there's the confirmation that BOTH can function simultaneously.

 

So, we simply have the Messiah discerning the inferiority of the Levitical priesthood....and focusing upon the requisite Melchizedek Priesthood sphere of operation so as to achieve complete sin removal.

 

This in NO WAY requires termination or cessation of animal-sacrifice activity, as I've already shown.

After all, Jesus comes to RESTORE those very Levitical animal sacrifices (Mal.3:4) to fulfill Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.14;Is.61;Dt.30:1-8;etc.

Great arguments BibleGuy.  Giving me lots to study and think about.  Though I can't agree that the prophecy and the fulfillment will operate simultaneously. 

If we can go directly to the LORD, why would anyone go to a Levite priest?  If that system was inferior, why keep it?  We only need the "more perfect" system. 

 1 Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."

Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Resurrection Priest]

Just recently, I came to an understanding of Zechariah's vision in Chpt 4.  Been puzzling over that one for 40 years.  Just suddenly "saw it". 

The two olive branches represent priest and king.  Both were anointed.  The anointing of king, and the anointing of high priest ("flowing down the beard" Ps 133:2) are combined in Yeshua Messiah, who is BOTH High Priest and King.  

Yeshua is then the conduit for the Spirit to "the churches" (Rev. 1:12-13).  

John the Baptist did say "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire"  (Matt 3:11).

The prophecy was about Messiah Yeshua.  He is the "golden bowl" of the vision. 

[BibleGuy]

21 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Now that I think about it, I don't think he really gets into it that much regarding Hebrew Roots. It seems to be a bit of a "fringe issue" with him.

Right....I think it's generally a "fringe" issue for most pastors across the country too.......it's still a bit "off the radar".....

Which is strange, given that Jesus taught us to obey all Torah (Mt.5:19).  Paul agrees (2Ti.3:16).  John agrees (1Jn.5:3).

 

My oh my!   Behold how we have drifted away from the 1st-century model of authentic Torah-obedient faith and practice!

THOUSANDS were zealous for Torah (Ac.21:20)....but now the church is widely opposed to it....

 

blessings...