The Hebrews Roots Movement

[BibleGuy]

1 hour ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Yes.  Moses - not Jeremiah. 

Rest is rest - whether it was during the Babylonian captivity, or during the upcoming 7th millennium, after the plagues have destroyed life on planet earth. 

"The land" was not completely desolate during the Babylonian captivity.  Some people (the poor) were still living on "the land". 

"The land" was not completely desolate after Rome dispersed "the people". 

I'm talking COMPLETE literal desolation of the entire earth - "the uninhabited place". 

I believe the last 7 bowl plagues are "poured out" on the day that Christ returns in glory, just after He has removed His people from this planet. 

Revelation 18:8 "Therefore her plagues will come in one day-- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her." (NKJ)

Babylon will rule the entire world. She rides the Beast.  When she falls, her judgment will involve the entire world - which has become "the kingdom of" the Beast.

The last bowl judgment plagues are a cascading event that begins on THE DAY that Christ returns in glory.    Like a volcano begins a cascade of events, but it's really one event.   It takes awhile for famine to happen, but it results from THE EVENT that started the process.   When the LORD withdraws His Spirit from this earth, nature along with mankind will go into a spiral of demonic wickedness and chaos, which will end in the complete destruction of this planet. 

During the process, men will curse God. 

" I'm talking COMPLETE literal desolation of the entire earth - "the uninhabited place".  "

But EARTH (in English) sometimes merely refers to the land of ISRAEL, not ALL THE PLANET.

So, we need to be careful about that possibility.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

1 hour ago, Resurrection Priest said:

  Hebrews 9:8 "By this arrangement, the Ruach HaKodesh showed that so long as the first Tent had standing, the way into the Holiest Place was still closed." (CJB)

"had standing" :  "standing" -  4714 sta,sij stasis {stas'-is}
Meaning:  1) a standing, station, state

The "first Tent" no longer has any "standing" before God, as the place or means of atonement or justification.   When Yeshua Messiah ascended to minister as our High Priest before God in "the Holiest Place" (Heaven itself - where God is),  there was no longer any need to seek for atonement/justification at the "first Tent". 

Yes.  I realize that Paul went back to Jerusalem and went up to the Temple to complete a Nazarite Vow, and he paid for the sacrifices of several other men doing the same. 

The LORD had warned him at least three times NOT TO GO (Acts 20:22-23, Acts 21:4, & Acts 21:11).    Paul went anyway.  I personally believe that in so doing Paul "struck the rock twice".  The LORD allowed Paul to suffer in chains for what remained of his life, before he was beheaded. 

" there was no longer any need to seek for atonement/justification at the "first Tent".  "

Rather, the "first Tent" now comes to symbolize the full and complete once-for-all atonement achieved by bringing Christ's blood having been brought into the heavenly Temple to achieve once-for-all atonement.

It doesn't say "no longer has any 'standing' "...in Heb.9:8.

Rather, the broader context of Heb.9:8 confirms that the ongoing MEANING of the "standing" of the "first Tent" now has broader/greater symbolic significance.

After all, the SAME writer of Hebrews just told us that ALL Torah passes into the New Covenant (Heb.8:8), and it will be OBEYED (Heb.8:10).

And, the SAME writer of Hebrews will tell us, in just a moment (Heb.10:15-16), that Torah will be OBEYED in the New Covenant.

And again, Heb. 10:1 uses PRESENT TENSE to refer to the ONGOING shadow-function of Torah....thus the shadow CONTINUES, in the mind of the writer of Hebrews.

Heb.10:3 confirms that the sacrifices are an ongoing REMINDER of sins....and now that Christ has come, we are also reminded of Christ's permanent once-for-all sacrifice which fully takes those sins away (as symbolized by the ongoing Levitical service).

Heb.10:11, again, confirms ONGOING priestly Levitical service.

Heb.10:22 again, "let us draw near" is language for "let us go to the temple and sacrifice"....it's ONGOING.

Heb.10:26 again, confirms we should NOT GO ON SINNING (meaning NOT DISOBEY TORAH....meaning OBEY TORAH.....meaning LEVITICAL Torah portions are still in force).

Heb.10:28 confirms the Law of Moses is NOT SET ASIDE, thus Levitical service is ongoing.

Heb.10:29 upholds the blood of the covenant (Lk.22:20) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Heb. 10:29 upholds the SPIRIT who leads us to obey ALL Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27), and all Torah "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21), with NO EXCEPTIONS regarding Levitical service.

Heb. 10:38 requires that we live by FAITH, and FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138), NO EXCEPTIONS given for Levitical service.

And, we have much evidence of future restoration of Levitical service (Mal.3:4;Jer.33;Is.66;Is.61;Eze.40-47;Dt.30:1-8;etc.)

 

So, the broader context, here, does not support the idea that Levitical Torah portions are now terminated.

 

" I realize that Paul went back to Jerusalem and went up to the Temple to complete a Nazarite Vow, and he paid for the sacrifices of several other men doing the same. "

And we should IMITATE that model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9), and likewise condone sacrifice-laden vows for the purpose of proving Paul "walked orderly according to the law" (Ac.21), NO EXCEPTIONS GIVEN for Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions, and NO EXCEPTIONS GIVEN regarding obeying the model demonstrated by Paul's decision to partake in the Nazirite vow and subsequently go to Rome.

 

"The LORD had warned him at least three times NOT TO GO (Acts 20:22-23, Acts 21:4, & Acts 21:11). "

Ac.20:22-23 does not say the Spirit told Paul not to go!  It merely confirms that the Spirit graciously warned Paul what would happen.

Ac.21:4 confirms the the DISCIPLES did not want Paul to go, given insight from the Spirit....but I don't see the Spirit in Ac. 21:4 TELLING Paul not to go.

Ac.21:11 again merely has the Spirit warning Paul about what would happen.....not COMMANDING Paul not to go.

 

So, I don't see evidence that the LORD "warned him" "NOT TO GO".

 

" I personally believe that in so doing Paul "struck the rock twice".  "

Rather, Paul was simply exercising his free will, in the Lord, to choose his fate (Ac.20:24).

After all, some people voluntarily CHOOSE to suffer more, so as to achieve a greater judgement (Heb.11:26,35).

The Spirit may not have REQUIRED Paul to go to Rome....but that doesn't prove Paul wasn't free to make that choice in the Lord.

 

blessings...

 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 11/28/2019 at 2:59 PM, BibleGuy said:

" I'm talking COMPLETE literal desolation of the entire earth - "the uninhabited place".  "

But EARTH (in English) sometimes merely refers to the land of ISRAEL, not ALL THE PLANET.

So, we need to be careful about that possibility.

 

blessings...

 

I'm talking about "the earth" that was created in the beginning by God's Son, per Hebrews 1:10-12.  That "earth" or "land" or "ground".  

  Hebrews 1:10 And, "You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you continue. And they will all grow old like a garment, 12 and like a robe you will fold them up and like a garment they will be changed, but you are the same and your years will never run out." (NET)

I believe this death of the earth by plagues and fire, will happen just after the Glorious Return of Yeshua Messiah.   Then - after a period of time - He will heal and restore it, making it new again. 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

22 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Rather, the broader context of Heb.9:8 confirms that the ongoing MEANING of the "standing" of the "first Tent" now has broader/greater symbolic significance.

Ahhhh.  So the earthly one is SYMBOLIC.  It always has been. 

[Resurrection Priest]

22 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

After all, the SAME writer of Hebrews just told us that ALL Torah passes into the New Covenant (Heb.8:8), and it will be OBEYED (Heb.8:10).

Hebrews 8:10 "This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." (NIV)

The writer of Hebrew is quoting from Jeremiah 31:31-33

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (NAS)

So the NEW COVENANT is NOT going to be like the "first" covenant - the one they broke.  What then is the difference.  The "first covenant" was written on stone.  The future covenant would be written in the mind/heart.  The future covenant will be the same as the original covenant - the one in Eden at the beginning.  Only AFTER sin entered were sacrifices necessary. 

At Mt Sinai,  did the "first" covenant include animal sacrifices?  Was that written on the stones?  No.  Just the 10 Commands.  The stone symbolized the hardness of the hearts of the people.  The 10 Commands were literal promise of what God would do - in them/us one day. 

The "first" covenant was "we will do" for HIM.  The New Covenant is what HE will do in us. 

When you say "ALL Torah" you include the entire system of Levite priests performing animal sacrifices, but that system was not established until AFTER "the Covenant" was spoken and written, and agreed to by the people.  That entire system was THE REMEDY for breaking covenant.  But it SYMBOLIZED the true remedy - the blood of Messiah, His resurrection, His defeat of Satan, our resurrection,  and His New Covenant written inside the heart. 

Under the New Covenant HE has "changed" HIS priesthood - to "the firstborn" who belong to HIM.  They "will reign with HIM" to rule the nations. 

[Resurrection Priest]

23 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Heb.10:22 again, "let us draw near" is language for "let us go to the temple and sacrifice"....it's ONGOING.

The LORD allowed that "first Tent" to be obliterated.  HE has not allowed its rebuilding - for almost 2000 years.  The only way a believer could "go up to the Temple of the LORD" is through prayer. 

Jesus "became a minister in the sanctuary, and in THE TRUE TABERNACLE, which the Lord pitched, not man" (Heb 8:2 NAS). 

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into HEAVEN ITSELF, now to appear in the presence of God for us; (NKJ). 

Heaven itself is the place where our "sin offering" is presented - all our "offerings" in fact.  When they build another "copy" on earth, just this side of the Glorious Return, will that be a "house" built by the LORD?  Will His Spirit return to that House.  I don't believe so. 

"Except the Lord build the house, they that build labour in vain:" (Psa 127:1 LXA). 

That "House" will be destroyed, along with everything else man-made, when the earth is consumed in fire. 

[Resurrection Priest]

BibleGuy,  you thought that maybe a Temple may exist "outside" of the New Jerusalem, and that Temple will continue forever with Levite priests and animal sacrifices. 

Revelation 21:22 "But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." (NKJ)

If God and the Lamb ARE THE TEMPLE in the New Jerusalem, I don't see how there could be any other Temple, especially one outside the City. 

[Resurrection Priest]

BibleGuy,

Will uncircumcised men be allowed to come into the courtyard of sacrifice, of the future rebuilt Temple?  Will they still be forbidden to enter there to present their offerings? 

And what about women? 

Ezekiel 44:9 "Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel." (KJV)

Any believer can come before His presence today, in the person of our High Priest.  No physical circumcision necessary. 

Hebrews 6:19 "We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." (NIV)

A "forerunner" goes before.  Which means that we also will one day enter that "presence" to stand before God.  Obviously we will need to be "circumcised" in heart, by Christ.  But we (men and women) will ALSO need to be physically circumcised.  THAT happens when we receive the new spiritual body.  The old "flesh" will be gone. 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 11/28/2019 at 12:58 PM, Alive said:

Do you think that men during the millennial age and afterwards will be 'baptized into Christ'? Will be regenerated?

I believe "the rest of the dead" will be resurrected at the 8th millennium.  These will be people who - for whatever reason - did not have the opportunity to choose God/Christ during the first 6000 years of earth's history.  They will be resurrected, learn of God and Christ, then they will have to choose.  They will be taught and governed by those redeemed and made immortal at the Glorious Return.  Many will choose Christ.  They rest will come up to attack Jerusalem where Christ is reigning as King.  They will be consumed by fire (Gog/Magog).  Satan is "loosed" from the pit, for this time period.  He will tempt/test those of "the rest", to show whom they will serve. 

 

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I believe "the rest of the dead" will be resurrected at the 8th millennium.  These will be people who - for whatever reason - did not have the opportunity to choose God/Christ during the first 6000 years of earth's history.  They will be resurrected, learn of God and Christ, then they will have to choose.  They will be taught and governed by those redeemed and made immortal at the Glorious Return.  Many will choose Christ.  They rest will come up to attack Jerusalem where Christ is reigning as King.  They will be consumed by fire (Gog/Magog).  Satan is "loosed" from the pit, for this time period.  He will tempt/test those of "the rest", to show whom they will serve. 

 

That isn't what I asked.