The Hebrews Roots Movement

[Resurrection Priest]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

That isn't what I asked.

OK.  Never mind.

[Alive]

1 minute ago, Resurrection Priest said:

OK.  Never mind.

However--what you typed does dovetail into something I have had in mind for more than a year.

[BibleGuy]

22 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Ahhhh.  So the earthly one is SYMBOLIC.  It always has been. 

Yes....before Christ, the Levitical service points FORWARD to the needed forthcoming once-for-all sacrifice of Messiah....

And AFTER Christ came, the Levitical service points BACKWARD to the once-for-all sacrifice now achieved by Messiah....

 

[BibleGuy]

22 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Hebrews 8:10 "This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." (NIV)

The writer of Hebrew is quoting from Jeremiah 31:31-33

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (NAS)

So the NEW COVENANT is NOT going to be like the "first" covenant - the one they broke.  What then is the difference.  The "first covenant" was written on stone.  The future covenant would be written in the mind/heart.  The future covenant will be the same as the original covenant - the one in Eden at the beginning.  Only AFTER sin entered were sacrifices necessary. 

At Mt Sinai,  did the "first" covenant include animal sacrifices?  Was that written on the stones?  No.  Just the 10 Commands.  The stone symbolized the hardness of the hearts of the people.  The 10 Commands were literal promise of what God would do - in them/us one day. 

The "first" covenant was "we will do" for HIM.  The New Covenant is what HE will do in us. 

When you say "ALL Torah" you include the entire system of Levite priests performing animal sacrifices, but that system was not established until AFTER "the Covenant" was spoken and written, and agreed to by the people.  That entire system was THE REMEDY for breaking covenant.  But it SYMBOLIZED the true remedy - the blood of Messiah, His resurrection, His defeat of Satan, our resurrection,  and His New Covenant written inside the heart. 

Under the New Covenant HE has "changed" HIS priesthood - to "the firstborn" who belong to HIM.  They "will reign with HIM" to rule the nations. 

"What then is the difference.  "

We are told about an important difference!

Torah was DISOBEYED in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9).

Torah is properly OBEYED in the New Covenant (Heb.8:10).

 

The first covenant was written on stone, but not on many hearts, because many disobeyed.

The New Covenant places that Torah (that was written on stone) onto our HEARTS so that we OBEY IT (Dt. 30:14).  After all, IN YOUR HEART means you OBEY IT (Dt.30:14).

 

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16;Mt.5:19).

 

" The future covenant will be the same as the original covenant - the one in Eden at the beginning. "

Rather, the NEW Covenant consists of the TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16) written upon our hearts (Dt.30:14) so that we obey it in faith (Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:26-27).

After all, Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT yet fulfilled....thus, per Mt. 5:18, NO TORAH OF MOSES is terminated or cancelled or abolished in any way.

 

" Only AFTER sin entered were sacrifices necessary. "

And sin has entered!  Thus Levitical sacrifices are necessary, and WILL return (Dt. 30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.61;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3:4). 

Paul condoned them (Ac.21); we should imitate that model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

 

"At Mt Sinai,  did the "first" covenant include animal sacrifices?"

Of course.  The FIRST commandment ("you shall have no other gods before Me") entails obedience to ALL Torah of Moses subsequently given to Israel.

ALL Torah is required of Israel (Mal.4:4), not merely the 10 commandments.

And Christians are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12); thus no Christian is excluded from the obligation to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of Moses.

And God was proceeding to SPEAK all the Torah of Moses (not just the 10 commands) to the Israelites....but they got scared, so they asked Moses to get the revelation privately, and then Moses received the rest of the Torah of Moses privately, and then Moses gave it to Israel (Dt. 5:25-33).  God reaffirms that He intended ALL the Torah to be obeyed....(not merely just the 10 + MORE Torah later due to violation of the 10).

 

"When you say "ALL Torah" you include the entire system of Levite priests performing animal sacrifices, but that system was not established until AFTER "the Covenant" was spoken and written"

God would have spoken all the Torah of Moses to the Israelites, but they got scared (Dt.5:25-33), so Moses received the revelation privately and then gave it all to Israel, as God intended ALL of it to be given to ISRAEL from the beginning.

Of course God did not reveal the entire written Torah of Moses all at one instant!  It took awhile for it to be fully given to Moses and then, subsequently, given to Israel.

Nevertheless, ALL Torah applies to ALL Israelites (Mal.4:4)....

The idea that Israelites should obey the 10 commandments, but not the rest of the Torah of Moses, is completely foreign to the context of Scripture.

 

"The "first" covenant was "we will do" for HIM.  The New Covenant is what HE will do in us. "

No.  The First covenant included all the WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES.

The New Covenant includes the SAME WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33, " תּוֹרָה ") or else Jeremiah was a false prophet (given Dt. 13:1-5).

 

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah of Moses (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

 

"Under the New Covenant HE has "changed" HIS priesthood - to "the firstborn" who belong to HIM. "

I already addressed your "firstborn" consideration earlier in this thread.

The Levitical priesthood will be RESTORED by Jesus Himself (Mal.3:4)....it's not changed into something else.

 

"They "will reign with HIM" to rule the nations. "

They will NOT all be Levitical priests...only the sons of Zadok will be Levitical priests (Eze.44-47), just as only SOME Christians were Levitical priests in the 1st century (Ac.6:7).

Abraham will INHERIT THE LAND....otherwise God's promise is a lie....

Thus, Abraham will NOT be one of the Levitical priests serving at that time.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

22 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

The LORD allowed that "first Tent" to be obliterated.  HE has not allowed its rebuilding - for almost 2000 years.  The only way a believer could "go up to the Temple of the LORD" is through prayer. 

Jesus "became a minister in the sanctuary, and in THE TRUE TABERNACLE, which the Lord pitched, not man" (Heb 8:2 NAS). 

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into HEAVEN ITSELF, now to appear in the presence of God for us; (NKJ). 

Heaven itself is the place where our "sin offering" is presented - all our "offerings" in fact.  When they build another "copy" on earth, just this side of the Glorious Return, will that be a "house" built by the LORD?  Will His Spirit return to that House.  I don't believe so. 

"Except the Lord build the house, they that build labour in vain:" (Psa 127:1 LXA). 

That "House" will be destroyed, along with everything else man-made, when the earth is consumed in fire. 

"Heaven itself is the place where our "sin offering" is presented - all our "offerings" in fact.  "

All our PERMANENT ONCE-FOR-ALL offerings are presented in the heavenly temple...sure.

But that's NOT a termination of EARTHLY offering.

Sin offerings will be RESTORED on earth (e.g., Eze.45:17).

 

"When they build another "copy" on earth, just this side of the Glorious Return, will that be a "house" built by the LORD?  Will His Spirit return to that House.  I don't believe so. "

The Messiah HIMSELF will build the temple (Zec.6:12)...and SACRIFICES happen in temples!

And of COURSE the Messiah does things "by the Spirit" (Zec.4:6)....that's presumed in the context of Zechariah.

And why would the temple not have the Spirit return?  I think the Messiah knows how to do things properly!

After all, it's the SPIRIT who will lead us to obey ALL Torah ordinances...(Eze.36:27)...and that entails Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial ordinances.

And again, it's the SPIRIT who works in us to oppose the flesh (Rom.8:13)...and the flesh opposes the Torah (Rom.8:7)...so the Spirit leads us to OBEY all Torah in the Spirit....so surely the obedience to the Torah will be of the SPIRIT at that time.

 

"Except the Lord build the house, they that build labour in vain:" (Psa 127:1 LXA). "

Don't worry!  Jesus will build it (Zec.6:12).

 

"That "House" will be destroyed, along with everything else man-made, when the earth is consumed in fire. "

Don't worry!  Jesus will build it (Zec.6:12).

 

blessings...

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

40 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

" The future covenant will be the same as the original covenant - the one in Eden at the beginning. "

Rather, the NEW Covenant consists of the TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16) written upon our hearts (Dt.30:14) so that we obey it in faith (Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:26-27).

After all, Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT yet fulfilled....thus, per Mt. 5:18, NO TORAH OF MOSES is terminated or cancelled or abolished in any way.

So - in the forever kingdom, the LORD will have to remind us not to give false witness, or commit adultery, not to disrespect our parents, etc. etc.  ??

I thought the whole law hangs on 2 principles - love for God and love for each other.  If those principles become part of our very nature, why the need for specifics? 

In the forever kingdom the Ark will not be visited or even come to mind.  

Jeremiah 3:16 "And it shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they shall say no more, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they miss it, nor shall it be made again. 17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem 'The Throne of the LORD,' and all the nations will be gathered to it, to Jerusalem, for the name of the LORD; nor shall they walk anymore after the stubbornness of their evil heart.'" (NAS)

How do animal sacrifices hang on love for God and love for one another?  I can love God and love others WITHOUT killing animals.  Many have done so for 1950 years, since God allowed the destruction of that House.  

[Resurrection Priest]

48 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

The Messiah HIMSELF will build the temple (Zec.6:12)...and SACRIFICES happen in temples!

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?
 (NIV)

 

[Resurrection Priest]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

 

"Under the New Covenant HE has "changed" HIS priesthood - to "the firstborn" who belong to HIM. "

I already addressed your "firstborn" consideration earlier in this thread.

The Levitical priesthood will be RESTORED by Jesus Himself (Mal.3:4)....it's not changed into something else.

It seems we are repeating.  I have shared my view that "the priesthood" was "changed" BACK to the original "firstborn" - of whom Yeshua Messiah is chief and we are part of His priesthood.

I have shared my view that the "first Tent" - that physical Tabernacle/Temple made with hands, was a symbolic prophecy, and will pass away when the forever Temple of God and the Lamb is our reality - here on earth. 

I thank you for the great dialog.  You have really helped me to understand the Hebrew Roots view. 

[BibleGuy]

23 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

So - in the forever kingdom, the LORD will have to remind us not to give false witness, or commit adultery, not to disrespect our parents, etc. etc.  ??

I thought the whole law hangs on 2 principles - love for God and love for each other.  If those principles become part of our very nature, why the need for specifics? 

In the forever kingdom the Ark will not be visited or even come to mind.  

Jeremiah 3:16 "And it shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they shall say no more, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they miss it, nor shall it be made again. 17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem 'The Throne of the LORD,' and all the nations will be gathered to it, to Jerusalem, for the name of the LORD; nor shall they walk anymore after the stubbornness of their evil heart.'" (NAS)

How do animal sacrifices hang on love for God and love for one another?  I can love God and love others WITHOUT killing animals.  Many have done so for 1950 years, since God allowed the destruction of that House.  

"So - in the forever kingdom, the LORD will have to remind us not to give false witness, or commit adultery, not to disrespect our parents, etc. etc.  ??"

I'm not persuaded that the Millennium is the "forever kingdom".  Rather, I think the "Millennium" is simply a 1000-year future phase in the ongoing history of man. 

There may well be additional phases subsequent to the Millennium.

 

And we know that the future temple has SIN OFFERINGS (e.g., Eze. 45:25)....which implies SIN is present during the time of Ezekiel's temple.

And we know that DEATH occurs in the future (Is.65:20,22)...which implies sin is also present at that time.....because sin leads to death.

 

So, those who are still in regular sinful bodies of flesh and blood will still be subject to sin and death.....even though they will KNOW (without need for teaching, Jer. 31:34) that they should not sin.

We in glorified bodies will no longer be subject to sin....

There will evidently regular sinful bodies AND glorified bodies on earth at the same time, in the future.

 

"I thought the whole law hangs on 2 principles - love for God and love for each other.  If those principles become part of our very nature, why the need for specifics? "

The "hanging" is a SUMMARIZING (Gr. " ἀνακεφαλαιόω ", Rom.13:9), not a REPLACEMENT or SUBSTITUTE.

Remember, Jesus applies Mt. 5:19 to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20)....

Torah will go out to the nations (Is.2:3-4;Mic.4:2-3), not merely the two summarizing instructions.

 

"In the forever kingdom the Ark will not be visited or even come to mind.  "

Well, at least that is true when Jer.3:16 occurs.  Perhaps the ark is only in the heavenly temple at that time.

 

"How do animal sacrifices hang on love for God and love for one another?"

Because love for God ENTAILS obedience to ALL God's commands (1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25)....and God's commands are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3) which requires animal sacrifices.

Jesus DESIRES sacrifices (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17)....so obedience to Jesus as an expression of our love for Him (Jn.14:15) will surely not OPPOSE those very sacrifices He desires!

I desires what HE desires!  That's proof of love.

 

" I can love God and love others WITHOUT killing animals. "

If you're not a priest, then it's not your job to be "killing animals".

But if you love, then you obey ALL observable Torah instructions....and when we return to the land we WILL obey 100% of ALL Torah again (Dt.30:1-8), with NO exceptions given regarding the Levitical service.

AND, our obedience is an expression of our love (1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25;Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19;etc.)

 

Sure, we can't observe Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions during our present diaspora....we can't even properly keep the feasts in all details (Lam.1:4)...but that's only a temporary problem.....we WILL obey 100% again....AFTER we return to inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29;Eph.3:16;Dt.30:1-8;Eze.37:21-28;39:25-29;Jer.33:7-26;etc.), as an expression of our love (1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25;Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19;etc.)

 

"Many have done so for 1950 years, since God allowed the destruction of that House. "

It's only a TEMPORARY diaspora (Jas.1:1;Mt.15:24)....We WILL return! (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29;Eph.3:16;Dt.30:1-8;Eze.37:21-28;39:25-29;Jer.33:7-26;etc.)

 

blessings...

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

23 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?
 (NIV)

 

SYMBOLS need not replace that which is SYMBOLIZED....

When you behold a tree, the SHADOW IS STILL THERE!  (the shadow CONTINUES, PRESENT TENSE in Col. 2:17 and Heb. 10:1 in regards to the ONGOING shadow function of Torah).0

 

So BOTH are true.

 

After all, the temple STILL existed in Paul's day, and Paul CONDONED a sacrifice-laden vow to prove he "walked orderly according to the Torah" (Ac.21); YOU should likewise condone fully Torah-obedient behavior (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians were zealous for ALL Torah (Ac.21:20), thus including sacrifices in the temple.

Some Christians were even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7)

So it's BOTH.

We are (symbolically, metaphorically) God's temple....

AND, the physical temple can exist SIMULTANEOUSLY.

 

Christ fulfills Torah...AND....Torah CONTINUES to be in force and applicable.

 

blessings...

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by BibleGuy
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