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R. Hartono

The word "first resurrection" in Rev 20 which mislead many

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Posted (edited)

Many people after reading this verse :

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Take a conclusion that the first resurrection will happen after the Tribulation, where the souls that were beheaded in the Tribulation will be resurrected.

Therefore people assume that this verse will happen after the 7 years of great tribulation
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Question : Why would Jesus need to gather the saints to the clouds to meet Him if the 7 years great tribulation is over ? Just to make a U Turn in the air to return the saints from the cloud to the earth again ? Not right.

Many have been misleaded by the ENGLISH TRANSLATION of Rev 20 5

Lets analyse the word :
English : This is the first resurection
Greek : haute he anastasis he PROTE
haute he = this is
prote = the first
anastasis = resurrection (NOUN)
THIS VERSE SAYS FIRST RESURRECTION BECAUSE THIS PRECEDES THE OTHER DEAD WHO LIVE NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE FINISHED (GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT), FIRST/prote HERE MEANS IT PRECEDES.

The SAME word PROTE (first) is also used in : 1 Thes 4 16 to show resurrection be4 the Rapture
English : the dead in Christ will rise first
Greek : hoi nekroi en Christo anastesontai proton
hoi nekro = the dead
en Christo= in Christ
anastesontai = rise (verb)
proton = first
THIS SHOWS THE DEAD IN CHRIST OF CHURCH AGE WILL RISE FIRST BEFORE THE RAPTURE OF THE LIVING SAINTS.

We can see the translation in Rev 20:5 and 1 Thes 4:16 both used the same word PROTE/FIRST RESURRECTION with different meaning it refers to.

So there will be 3 Resurrections :

1st Resurrection : The resurrection of the dead in Christ from the church age.
: 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2nd Resurrection of those died by beheading in the Grief Tribulation :
Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

3rd Resurrection of all the deceased mankind since the time of Adam:
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Edited by R. Hartono

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Posted (edited)

There can't be three if Rev 20 says, this is the FIRST resurrection, and then describes the next resurrection as after the 1000 years being complete, hence the 2nd.

And no, the meaning is not different, the object is. In 1 Thess 4 the dead are first before the living, within the 1st resurrection. In Rev 20 first refers to the complete concept of the resurrection of the dead.

Then what of the living in Christ that make it through the '7 year tribulation' when the dead of Rev 20 are resurrected? If one assumes, as scripture says, there is only one 1st resurrection then the 1 Thess 4 resurrection is the same as the Rev 20 resurrection.

I mean, how do we just add a resurrection when the Greek, as you pointed out says, "prote = the first"? And then you claim it to be the second? 

What? I mean how?

Edited by Diaste
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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

There can't be three if Rev 20 says, this is the FIRST resurrection, and then describes the next resurrection as after the 1000 years being complete, hence the 2nd.

And no, the meaning is not different, the object is. In 1 Thess 4 the dead are first before the living, within the 1st resurrection. In Rev 20 first refers to the complete concept of the resurrection of the dead.

Then what of the living in Christ that make it through the '7 year tribulation' when the dead of Rev 20 are resurrected? If one assumes, as scripture says, there is only one 1st resurrection then the 1 Thess 4 resurrection is the same as the Rev 20 resurrection.

I mean, how do we just add a resurrection when the Greek, as you pointed out says, "prote = the first"? And then you claim it to be the second? 

What? I mean how?

Because Rev.20 is another fly in the ointment of the pre-trib doctrine 

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20 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Many people after reading this verse :

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Take a conclusion that the first resurrection will happen after the Tribulation, where the souls that were beheaded in the Tribulation will be resurrected.

Therefore people assume that this verse will happen after the 7 years of great tribulation
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Question : Why would Jesus need to gather the saints to the clouds to meet Him if the 7 years great tribulation is over ? Just to make a U Turn in the air to return the saints from the cloud to the earth again ? Not right.

Many have been misleaded by the ENGLISH TRANSLATION of Rev 20 5

Lets analyse the word :
English : This is the first resurection
Greek : haute he anastasis he PROTE
haute he = this is
prote = the first
anastasis = resurrection (NOUN)
THIS VERSE SAYS FIRST RESURRECTION BECAUSE THIS PRECEDES THE OTHER DEAD WHO LIVE NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE FINISHED (GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT)

The SAME word PROTE (first) is also used in : 1 Thes 4 16 to show resurrection be4 the Rapture
English : the dead in Christ will rise first
Greek : hoi nekroi en Christo anastesontai proton
hoi nekro = the dead
en Christo= in Christ
anastesontai = rise (verb)
proton = first
THIS SHOWS THE DEAD IN CHRIST OF CHURCH AGE WILL RISE FIRST BEFORE THE RAPTURE OF THE LIVING SAINTS.

We can see the translation in Rev 20:5 and 1 Thes 4:16 both used the same word PROTE/FIRST RESURRECTION with different meaning it refers to.

So there will be 3 Resurrections :

1st Resurrection : The resurrection of the dead in Christ from the church age.
: 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2nd Resurrection of those died by beheading in the Grief Tribulation :
Rev 20:4 and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

3rd Resurrection of all the deceased mankind since the time of Adam:
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Shalom, R. Hartano.

Sorry, brother, but Yeshua` said there would be two general resurrections In John 5, and Paul added the "firstfruits" of Yeshua`s Resurrection to that in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

John 5:19-29 (KJV)

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1st General Resurrection)
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (2nd General Resurrection)

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it ismanifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So, there are NOT "three resurrections"; that is, "three general resurrections." There are only two.

This was one of the first things I learned that weaned me away from the Pretribulational Rapture viewpoint. Coupling this with (1) the fact that "Heaven" doesn't really exist, because of the mistaken usage of the Greek word "ouranos" which simply means the "sky" and refers to the earth's "atmosphere," and (2) the fact that the description most people use for "Heaven" is really the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22, we can arrive at the conclusion that the First General Resurrection is of SUPREME importance!

When we are resurrected, that which is called the "rapture" (Greek: harpageesometha = "will be caught away," not "up") will be a mass transit system to get us all to Jerusalem, Israel, for when the Messiah Yeshua` returns, He shall establish His Kingdom, the Kingdom of His father David!

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous, a transliteration of the Hebrew: Yeeshuwa`). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

While some buy into the idea that "Christians" shall be in "Heaven" during the Millennium and the "Jews" shall be on earth, doesn't it seem odd that we would be taken to "Heaven" only for Yeshua` to turn around without us and go back to earth to reign for a thousand years? And, should Yeshua` stay in "Heaven," then He has FAILED to fulfill the prophecies made to His own earthly family about a Kingdom of peace for them!

Neither of these scenarios are acceptable. Furthermore, I would dearly like to be with my own family, the children of Israel, and talk to the saints, the heroes of the Tanakh (the OT)! I was always told in Sunday School that we would be able to walk right up to David or Joshua or Joseph and talk with them in "Heaven" (or rather, in the Kingdom of God). That, too, would be impossible if we are separated for the first 1000 years! Nope, Paul said, "...and so shall we ever be with the Lord!"

That which people call "Heaven" (the description of the New Jerusalem), comes to US here on this earth (or actually, the New Earth, but not until AFTER the Millennium!

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Diaste said:

There can't be three if Rev 20 says, this is the FIRST resurrection, and then describes the next resurrection as after the 1000 years being complete, hence the 2nd.

The greek word PROTE/first in this sentence means precedes, so the resurrection of Rev 20 precedes the resurrection before the Great White Throne judgment after the 1000 years Millennium of Jesus.

Edited by R. Hartono

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28 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

So, there are NOT "three resurrections"; that is, "three general resurrections." There are only two.

The resurrection in Revelation 20 is not the same as the rapture is that it is simply a resurrection only. These Tribulation Saints died because they refused to worship the image of the beast or take the mark of the beast, and they are not "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air as we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. They are resurrected, and remain on earth to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. They are NOT the Church!

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4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The greek word PROTE/first in this sentence means precedes, so the resurrection of Rev 20 precedes the resurrection before the Great White Throne judgment after the 1000 years Millennium of Jesus.

True. That's two resurrections, not three. And the first is the one in which those who were beheaded for their testimony in Christ are raised from the dead.

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4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The resurrection in Revelation 20 is not the same as the rapture is that it is simply a resurrection only. These Tribulation Saints died because they refused to worship the image of the beast or take the mark of the beast, and they are not "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air as we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. They are resurrected, and remain on earth to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. They are NOT the Church!

Is there scriptural support for:

1) The resurrection in Revelation 20 is not the same as the rapture is that it is simply a resurrection only.

2) they are not "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air as we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

3) They are resurrected, and remain on earth to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years

4) They are NOT the Church!

Please post Chapter and Verse that says specifically, and in so many words, "The tribulation saints are not part of the church." or some variation. And if you can please do this with the other three ideas above as well.

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

True. That's two resurrections, not three. And the first is the one in which those who were beheaded for their testimony in Christ are raised from the dead.

If thats true then this verse will happen after the 7 years of great tribulation :
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

question : Why would Jesus need to gather the saints to the clouds to meet Him if the 7 years great tribulation is over, antichrist is dead and the world returns to peace ? Just to make a U Turn in the air to return the saints from the cloud to the earth again ? 

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Is there scriptural support for:

1) The resurrection in Revelation 20 is not the same as the rapture is that it is simply a resurrection only.

2) they are not "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air as we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

3) They are resurrected, and remain on earth to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years

4) They are NOT the Church!

Please post Chapter and Verse that says specifically, and in so many words, "The tribulation saints are not part of the church." or some variation. And if you can please do this with the other three ideas above as well.

1.The church will be taken alive bro. not beheaded in the tribulation :

(1 Thes 4:17) Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

2.If they are caught ALIVE would their head be put at the guillotine on earth ?

3. Their resurrection will happen after the tribulation is over, a/c is death and the devil is bound a thousand years.

Rev 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

4. See No. 1

 

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