Rapture

[Tari]

Here is a website I ran across referring to the rapture. This site has many Bible verses.  http://www.homestead.com/dclwolf/rapture.html 

What is written in Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed, one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Two men in one bed! Does that sound like the righteous are taken, according to what we read about what God thinks of this? Luke 17:37 Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.  Revelation:19:17-18 Do those verses sound like bodies are going to be eaten by fowls? Could that relate to the eagles they are talking about? Does this look to you like the righteous are taken up? Because what I am reading says the opposite.

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[jc49]

The facts about the return of Jesus Christ spoken from Jesus himself are clearly written in Matthew 24:1-51, Mark 13:1-37, Luke 12:35-59, Luke 17:20-37, Luke 21:1-38, 1Thessalonians 5:1-11, 2Peter 3:3-10. Now can anyone read through these verses and dispute that we all need to remain watchful for the visible return of Christ?

And can anyone tell me what these following verses are referring to:        Romans 11:7-11, Zechariah 5:1-4, 2Thessalonians 2:1-12, all of Ezekiel 13:

It sure seems to me like this rapture theory is a very easy way out. From what I gather from reading about the return of Christ, it seems like we need to remain very strong in our faith. We are all tested and tried through all of our days. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I do know that our God is a strict God. I do know that we don't just easily enter into the heavenly kingdom of God.

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no we don't enter easily,in fact we wouldn't be EVER CAPABLE TO EVEN MAKE A STEP......I mean,I see that people that cannot accept the rapture may be should see what GRACE is all about....this image of believers struggling to enter the kingdom looks to me anything but GRACE.....

what? did we save ourselves in the first place?

It tooj God to send HIS OWN ONLY SON TO DIE THE CURSED DEATH OF THE SINNER ON A ROMAN CROSS and now here we are even thinking that we can make into the kingdom through our puny and ridiculous efforts....When,I mean,will the believers understand that THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO PLEASE GOD but simply but TRULY BELIEVE IN HIS SON?

When,I ask when,it is written that Enoch the seventh from Adam pleased God because enoch was a super duper saint?GOD TOOK HIM because PLEASED GOD that ENOCH WALKED WITH GOD,meaning BELIEVED,because two people cannot walk together unless they agree,and we agree with GOD and start walking with HIM when we confess that we UTTERLY FAIL HIM all the time,WE ARE SINNERS,and so we RUN to JESUS WHO ONLY NEVER SINNED and find shelter and salvation in THE BELOVED NOT in our pompous self righteousness.....WE DESERVE HELL,ALL OF US,WE ARE SINNERS SINNING BOUND TO HELL,BUT FOR THE AMAZING GRACE of GOD that once we believe in HIS BELOVED puts us IN THE BELOVED and SEALS US with THE HOLY SPIRIT of THE PROMISE that JESUS EARNED FOR US!!!!

I really despair sometimes,I really do,when THE PEOPLE OF GRACE ,the born again sons and daughters of God through FAITH in HIS SON,go around preaching another gospel not RIGTHLY DIVIDING THE WORD,putting the free believers in Christ,THE MAGNIFICENT ONE,under the YOKE of a NEW LEGALISM,aJUDAIZING FORM of a mix of GRACE and WORKS...LETS GO BACK TO THE BIBLE,lets go to the book of ROMANS and see what the HOLY SPIRIT using PAUL says concerning GRACE....because unless is BY GRACE,well WE ARE and WE WILL STAY LOST even if our WORKS look good but are totally DEAD and USELESS and SPELL DEATH......

SHALOM

and MARANATHA!!!!!!

[Trust & Obey]

Brother Pax, I see your point here. But, what were the traditions here? Could it be...

Act 2:42  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Please tell me exactly what types of traditions I am not observing.

[i agree that not everything was written down. But, all we need to know is in the word of God. Please give me an example of something that is not in the word of God, yet is necessary for our salvation and Christian walk.

Regarding why Jesus "left us a Church." Jesus didn't leave us "a Church." We are the Church. Every one of us is the Church. The Church isn't some organization or system of governance over believers. The believers are the Church.

1Co 14:23  If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Col 4:15  Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

The term "Church" is used in reference to a collective body of believers.

God bless.

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TO: The Catholic Church holds many Traditions that Proetestant don't accept, such as Purgatory, Eucharist, Mary, confession, Holy Orders (Priest), Confirmation, Infant Baptism. I can give some bases of scripture that addresses each one of these traditions, but it takes the Magisterium, Christ Church to interpret all of this for us.

This is going to be a point of disagreement for us, Pax. I can oppose each of those traditions that you mentioned with Scripture. So, if you can substantiate them, then we have a problem with our Bible. If you're ready to start talking specifics I'll be right there with ya!

In other words the Bible doesn't say step by step what each traditions means and how we use this tradition for salvation.  It takes the Church  to help us do that.  That is why Christ left ONE Chruch. I also want to comment on your idea that every individual is the Church.  Christ spoke of one united Church in Mathew 16:18-19.

We are all united in Christ. Even you and I, Pax, are united brethren in the Lord Jesus Christ. I, myself, have often wondered about all of the different denominations, etc., and how they play a part in the body of Christ. But, you and I am all members of the same body, regardless of where we fellowship or call ourselves.

Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Are all the Protestant Churches united.  Is each person united in their beliefs.  No.

Actually, in the core beliefs that pertain to salvation we are united. At least, officially. Perhaps there is someone sitting in a pew somewhere that has a problem with such and such doctrine. We all go through periods in our walk where we struggle with certain ideas. That doesn't mean we are "not united."

Is the Roman Catholic Church United, all united under the Pope, yes.  You can go to a Catholic Church in Austrailia, or California and the mass is the same.  Each gospel reading for that day is the same for every Catholic Church in the world.

Praise God that is true! I would not want such "planned rigidity" in my walk with the Lord. My walk with the Lord is real, dynamic, and changing from day to day. I do not want my church life planned years in advance. I do not want my pastor to just "go through the motions," turning the pages and saying what he is told to say by a book that has been given to him. A Pastor has a relationship with God, too. He needs to be open to the speaking and moving of the Spirit of God.

Can you go into a Baptist Church in California and one in Nebraska and hear the same gospel readings each day.  No.  Each pastor is going to decide for himself how he wants to intrepret his respective Bible.

Praise the Lord! This is a great thing and allows God to work uniquely and individually in each resepective fellowship as God determines what that particular group of believers needs and a certain time.

Now, the Pastor is always under scrutiny, at least by me he is.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

If I find that the Pastor is off on something significant, and I think that it is something serious enough that needs to be addressed, I have no problem sharing my concern with him.

Christ wants us all to be united under ONE Church.  We should all form one body united under Christ, and this is his Church. 

I understand what you are saying, but if we follow this format then we must assume that the life of the congregation in Australia, Italy, or the US all need to hear the exact same thing at the exact same time, ad infinitum. I simply do not think this is so. And, it is for this exact rigidity that I find Catholic churches to be dead inside. The "kneel, sit, stand, a verse read from here, a verse read from there" format is all programmed and without real life to it. Even the prayers tha are offered by the "priest" are read from a book!

In my church fellowship I get to engage in lively worship for a good 45 minutes or so. Oh, does my heart yearn for this each and every week. Nothing is so sweet as the congregation singing heartily unto the Lord.

Then, we are fed a healthy 45 minute sermon systematically and expositionally through the word of God. Book by book, chapter by chapter. The sheep in my church, at least the ones that want to be, are strong and well fed. They are equipped in the word of God because they are fed a healthy diet of the word of God.

Each Pastor is a shepherd under the Chief Shephard, Jesus Christ. Therefore, each shepherd should have some flexibility on how to feed the sheep entrusted to them.

Nowhere are we commanded to accept things simply because someone "says so." God has given us a mind and expects us to use it.

Another thing I have found in the RCC is that there is usually no conviction of sin. This is why when I got saved, when I would invite my close friend of many years to come to church wtih me, he would only agree to go to a catholic church. Because, as he freely told me, "he didn't want to be preached to."

So, this is coming from a life-long catholic, himself (my friend).

If you don't want to be preached to, and you don't want to be challenged about a sinful lifestyle you may be leading, then you'll be comfortable in the RCC."

That is the message he pretty much conveyed to me.

[Trust & Obey]

The facts about the return of Jesus Christ spoken from Jesus himself are clearly written in Matthew 24:1-51, Mark 13:1-37, Luke 12:35-59, Luke 17:20-37, Luke 21:1-38, 1Thessalonians 5:1-11, 2Peter 3:3-10. Now can anyone read through these verses and dispute that we all need to remain watchful for the visible return of Christ?

You are correct, Tari! And you have just made my point.

If you are expecting to go through the GT, then you do not need to be watchful or have that expectancy of Christ's immediate return. For, Christ cannot return until the end of the GT. So, if you think you go through the GT, then you KNOW that it will be at least 7 years from today, because the GT hasn't started yet (obviously), and hence Jesus cannot return even if He wanted to.

The pre-trib view is the only view that teaches the imminency of Christ's return at any moment.

And can anyone tell me what these following verses are referring to: Romans 11:7-11, Zechariah 5:1-4, 2Thessalonians 2:1-12, all of Ezekiel 13:

Romans 11:7-11 discuss the fact that God has shifted His focus away from the nation Israel and is now focusing on the Gentiles. He will do this until "the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Once all of the gentiles are saved then God will remove the blindness from Israel.

I believe Zech 5:1-4 is speaking of future Israel.

2 Thes. 2:1-12 is in reference to the "Day of the Lord." This is a reference to the 2nd Coming of Christ and it happens at the end of the GT.

I'll have to examine Ezek 13 in depth to give an opinion on that one.

God bless.

[Trust & Obey]

The facts about the return of Jesus Christ spoken from Jesus himself are clearly written in Matthew 24:1-51, Mark 13:1-37, Luke 12:35-59, Luke 17:20-37, Luke 21:1-38, 1Thessalonians 5:1-11, 2Peter 3:3-10. Now can anyone read through these verses and dispute that we all need to remain watchful for the visible return of Christ?

And can anyone tell me what these following verses are referring to:        Romans 11:7-11, Zechariah 5:1-4, 2Thessalonians 2:1-12, all of Ezekiel 13:

It sure seems to me like this rapture theory is a very easy way out. From what I gather from reading about the return of Christ, it seems like we need to remain very strong in our faith. We are all tested and tried through all of our days. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I do know that our God is a strict God. I do know that we don't just easily enter into the heavenly kingdom of God.

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no we don't enter easily,in fact we wouldn't be EVER CAPABLE TO EVEN MAKE A STEP......I mean,I see that people that cannot accept the rapture may be should see what GRACE is all about....this image of believers struggling to enter the kingdom looks to me anything but GRACE.....

what? did we save ourselves in the first place?

It tooj God to send HIS OWN ONLY SON TO DIE THE CURSED DEATH OF THE SINNER ON A ROMAN CROSS and now here we are even thinking that we can make into the kingdom through our puny and ridiculous efforts....When,I mean,will the believers understand that THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO PLEASE GOD but simply but TRULY BELIEVE IN HIS SON?

When,I ask when,it is written that Enoch the seventh from Adam pleased God because enoch was a super duper saint?GOD TOOK HIM because PLEASED GOD that ENOCH WALKED WITH GOD,meaning BELIEVED,because two people cannot walk together unless they agree,and we agree with GOD and start walking with HIM when we confess that we UTTERLY FAIL HIM all the time,WE ARE SINNERS,and so we RUN to JESUS WHO ONLY NEVER SINNED and find shelter and salvation in THE BELOVED NOT in our pompous self righteousness.....WE DESERVE HELL,ALL OF US,WE ARE SINNERS SINNING BOUND TO HELL,BUT FOR THE AMAZING GRACE of GOD that once we believe in HIS BELOVED puts us IN THE BELOVED and SEALS US with THE HOLY SPIRIT of THE PROMISE that JESUS EARNED FOR US!!!!

I really despair sometimes,I really do,when THE PEOPLE OF GRACE ,the born again sons and daughters of God through FAITH in HIS SON,go around preaching another gospel not RIGTHLY DIVIDING THE WORD,putting the free believers in Christ,THE MAGNIFICENT ONE,under the YOKE of a NEW LEGALISM,aJUDAIZING FORM of a mix of GRACE and WORKS...LETS GO BACK TO THE BIBLE,lets go to the book of ROMANS and see what the HOLY SPIRIT using PAUL says concerning GRACE....because unless is BY GRACE,well WE ARE and WE WILL STAY LOST even if our WORKS look good but are totally DEAD and USELESS and SPELL DEATH......

SHALOM

and MARANATHA!!!!!!

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Amen, amen, and amen, jc.

Shalom to you, too!

[Tari]

When I wrote Jesus spoke himself I meant in the verses of Matthew24:1-51, Mark 13:1-37, Luke 12:35-59, Luke 17:20-37, and Luke 21:1-38, Apology because I meant to write "and other verses about the return of Christ are 1Thessalonians 5:1-11, 2Peter 3:3-10. Oh boy I am very very sorry for that simple human error, of seperating those verses of what Jesus spoke and stating other verses are as such. Let me make this very clear that all of these verses are about the return of Christ.

[Trust & Obey]

No problem, Tari.

One thing to keep in mind when considering the doctrine of the rapture is that it is a different event than the 2nd Coming of Christ.

At the rapture of the Church, only believers will see the Lord, but at the 2nd Coming "every eye will see Him."

To confuse the rapture and 2nd Coming as the same event is common, but inaccurate.

[Tari]

Read for yourselves people and let the wise understand the word of God.

[Pax]

"The following organizations are those who claim to be Catholic but dissent from the Truth. While they claim to be Catholic, they promote a man-made religion of unfettered pro-sin "choice" by the individual answerable to no one but himself (herself for the feminist reader), while promoting the spirituality of pagans."

8th Day Center for Justice

A Call to Action

American Old Catholic Church

Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church

Association of Pittsburgh Priests

Catholics for a Free Choice (CFFC)

Catholic Pastoral Committee on Sexual Minorities (CPCSM)

Catholics Speak Out

Catholic Theological Society of America (CTSA)

Celibacy Is the Issue

Center for Action and Contemplation (CAC)

Challenge the Church

Coalition of Concerned Canadian Catholics

Conference for Catholic Lesbians

Core Of Retired Priests United for Service (CORPUS)

Dignity USA

Federation of Christian Ministries

Fellowship of Southern Illinois Laity

Franciscan Companions of the Immaculate

FutureChurch

Jesus Seminar

Leadership Conference of Women Religious

Los Angeles Religious Education Congress

National Coalition Of American Nuns

National Association of Catholic Diocesan Lesbian and Gay Ministries (NACDLGM)

National Conference of Independent Catholic Bishops (NCICB

New Ways Ministries

Pax Christi

Religious Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen (Congregatio Mariae Reginae Immaculatae - CMRI)

Sex Information and Education Council for the United States (SIECUS)

True Catholic

United American Catholic Church

White Robed Monks of St. Benedict

Women's Ordination Worldwide (WOW)

Catholic Organizations for Renewal (COR)

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I am not familar with all the organizations listed above, but some I do know off. If any organization is teaching anything contrary to the docrtines of the Catholic Church than they are heretics. They can call themselves Catholic, but this is in name only. Many Bishops have excommunicated such groups from their diocese. Excommunication is a Church penalty which excludes a notorious sinner or someone grossly disobediant from the communion of the faithful. It doesn't mean the person ceases to be a Christian. Its purpose is to warn the individual that he risks losing his soul unless he repents. This is the bueaty of the Catholic Church. We don't split off into each radical group, we are ONE Chruch, with ONE Doctrine. If you move away from that, then you have removed yourself from the Church.

[Tari]

Here is a website I ran across referring to the rapture. This site has many Bible verses.