Calculations about the New Jerusalem

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Interesting vision. I never said there was a single level. It's a city, not an empty box. Interesting interpretation of 'foundation' too. Since we are just throwing things out there to see what sticks lets interpret 'foundations' as lower levels supporting the structure. We have billions of tons of evidence for this. From the foundations then the walls rise an additional 1333 miles high. 

It's not said there is any thickness to the foundations though there must be and they aren't made of precious stones, they are garnished or adorned with precious stones. I assume we can see the foundations as John saw them so they sit above ground. Truly impressive. 

Shalom, Diaste.

Actually, there's some information about the foundations that has been LOST upon Western thinkers. Look at Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:8-16 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (tents) with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly (Greek: epouraniou = "[one] from above the sky"): wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he HATH prepared FOR THEM a city.

Then, we read in chapter 12,

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV)

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as ESAU, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

18 For ye are not come unto the mount (Sinai) that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Greek: Ierousaleem epouranioo = "Jerusalem from-above-the-sky"), and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Some wonder how Avraham (Abraham) "looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." It doesn't look like there's any such passage in the Scriptures; so, how is this possible? The answer, I believe, is in the fact that it was during Avraham's lifetime that he began to call God "Adonay."

Genesis 15:1-21 (KJV)

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying,

"Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

2And Abram said,

"Lord GOD (Hebrew: Adonaay YHWH), what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"

3 And Abram said,

"Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir."

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

"This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir."

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said,

"Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them:" and he said unto him, "So shall thy seed be."

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him,

"I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it."

8And he said,

"Lord GOD (Hebrew: Adonaay YHWH), whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?"

9 And he said unto him,

"Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon."

10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. 11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13 And he said unto Abram,

"Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying,

"Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

The word in verses 2 and 8 is "Adonaay," spelled "alef -(patach)-dalet-(cholem)-nun-(qaamets)-yod." It stems from the Hebrew word "adown," spelled "alef-patach-dalet-(cholem)-vav-nun-sofit" which is also the source of "eden," spelled "alef-(segol)-dalet-(segol)-nun-sofit."

134 eden (eh'-den). From the same as 'aadown (in the sense of strength); a basis (of a building, a column, etc.) -- foundation, socket.

113 aadown (aw-done'). Or (shortened) aadon {aw-done'}; from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. Controller (human or divine) -- lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with "Adoni-".

136 Adonaay (ad-o-noi'). An emphatic form of 'aadown; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only) -- (my) Lord.

The truth is that "'aadown" is about a leader who LAYS THE FOUNDATION for a city, and thus, he is the controller of that city! The "Lord" of that city! To call God "my foundation layer," is to acknowledge that He is the Lord of the city that HE shall build! The emphatic form applied to YHWH God is to say that He is MY Sovereign!

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

And there is nothing illogical about many thousands of structures inside the main structure that could and would support a roof of 2 million square miles, if there is a roof, if the laws of physics are actual laws and not limits on man, or more like suggestions than actual rules. 

Think of simple physics and construction principles: Which is materially stronger, the square or the triangle?

In a square, you don't have to change the lengths of the sides to alter the square; one merely has to change the angles where the sides meet to change a square into a rhombus. If one wants to change anything about the triangle, a side must be broken or an angle taken apart! The triangle is more structurally sound than the square any day! In fact, to keep a square a square, there's often another support beam added to make a triangle out of two sides and the right angle between them!

So, projecting this truth to three dimensions, which would be fundamentally stronger, a cube consisting of four square walls, or a pyramid consisting of four equilateral triangular walls, supported in yet another triangular shape: the support of the walls against each other. Can one push over a cube? Of course one can. Can one push over a pyramid? Not without completely tipping it. It will NOT collapse! 

In chemistry, there is NOTHING stronger than a crystal! And, if you make that crystal triangular, as in the case of the tetrahedron of carbon, there's nothing stronger than diamond! Metals are plates of crystals of the particular metal or compound of which that metal is constructed. And, we've discovered that some crystals, such as crystals of silicon, are best formed in the weightlessness of space, such as in the freefall of an orbit.

Well, the walls and the first foundation are of jasper, which is "an aggregate of micro-granular QUARTZ and/or CHALCEDONY and other mineral phases, is an opaque, impure variety of silica, USUALLY RED, yellow, brown or green in color; and rarely blue." In fact, the "blood stone" or "heliotrope" is defined as "a cryptocrystalline mixture of quartz that occurs mostly as jasper or sometimes as chalcedony. The "classic" bloodstone is opaque green jasper with red inclusions of hematite. The red inclusions may resemble spots of blood, hence the name bloodstone." And, this stone is likened to carnelian by Revelation 4:3:

Revelation 4:3 (KJV)

 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

The "sardine stone" or "sardius" or simply "sard" is the "carnelian," which is defined as "a reddish-brown chalcedony, used as a gem" and "A glassy, translucent stone, Carnelian is an orange-colored variety of Chalcedony, a mineral of the Quartz family. ... In its red, red-orange to reddish brown shades, they considered it the active male energy stone, recognized by its glowing vibrant color."

Thus, the jasper of the Bible could not only be a red stone, but a TRANSLUCENT crystal instead of merely an opaque crystal, as well!

Thus, it doesn't have to be opaque, but may also allow light to pass through it, although it may not be completely transparent. 

The other crystals defining the other foundations are also crystals of silicon or crystals of quartz.

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is no evidence of the location of the throne. If there is please offer it.  

Yeshua` Himself said,

Matthew 21:33-46 (KJV)

33 "Hear another parable:

There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, 'They will reverence my son.' 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.' 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?"

41 They say unto him,

"He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."

42 Jesus saith unto them,

"Did ye never read in the scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THE SAME IS BECOME THE HEAD OF THE CORNER: THIS IS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELLOUS IN OUR EYES'?

43 "Therefore say I unto you, 'The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.' 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder!"

45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Yeshua` was quoting from Psalm 118:22-26:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become THE HEAD STONE OF THE CORNER. (Hebrew: l-ro'sh pinnaah = "to-[the]-head of-angle")
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

This phrase, "the head of the angle," means a CAPSTONE! Picture the statement in your mind's eye: This stone that was taken from the quarry was refused by the builders of the pyramid because it "didn't fit in" to their expectations. However, when they were done, ... oops! "Hey, guys, y'know, that stone we rejected some time back would make a PERFECT capstone!"

Yeshua` ("Jesus") was saying that HE was that capstone! And, where does He reside within the New Jerusalem?

Revelation 22:1-3 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Then, when you compound this truth with the fact that the "river of water of life" "PROCEEDS out of the throne," it also makes sense that this would be at the highest point so the water can flow downhill to all the parts of the city and then out of the gates onto the New Earth.

Another point is found in what Yeshua` said about letting your light shine:

Matthew 5:14-16 (KJV)

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

And, compare that to what we find in Revelation 21:

Revelation 21:23-25 (KJV)

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

And again in Revelation 22:

Revelation 22:3-5 (KJV)

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Wouldn't it make sense to put the light on the highest point so that everyone would be able to walk in the light of it?

Is that enough evidence? It was for me.

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Don't deflect. I never said Eratosthenes calculated the distance of the sun. 

Everyone ignores the fact he ASSUMED the sun to be a great distance. He didn't KNOW how far away the sun was from earth. I did the calcs and got the same values as he did. Then I did the calcs based on known observable data. Two completely different stories emerged.  But I don't care about that. Eratosthenes made a wild, unjustified determination about two wholly unknown factors. That's trigonometric blasphemy.

Well, he knew two things: First, he knew that light from the sun was not different from east to west as one went farther north or south along the same line of longitude. Midday was midday, regardless the latitude.

However, second, he also knew that the angle of the sun's rays to the ground DID change as one moved north and south at the same time in the same longitude.

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Oh boy....

Here we go. The globe earth. It's denied the curve has anything to do with building cities and now here you are using it as a major obstacle.

Well, Flat Earthers don't REALIZE just how big the globe earth is! It was described to me when I was a kid by picturing a ball as big as the neighborhood, and then seeing a fly land upon that ball. To the fly, it would have appeared that he landed on a flat surface no matter where on the ball he landed!

On (what appears to be) flat ground or upon a large body of still water (at sea level, for instance), we can only see about 3 miles to the horizon in any direction. When we get higher, say upon a mountain like Mount Everest, our view extends to 208.8 miles to the horizon in any direction! This can be verified by recognizable monuments at those distances. A flat earth belief system cannot explain that.

Furthermore, VERY FEW PEOPLE can comprehend just how MONUMENTALLY HUGE THIS city, the New Jerusalem, shall be! It defies the normal expectations of building other cities! It BOGGLES the mind just how AWESOMELY HUGE this city shall be! People until today have made ridiculously underestimates of this city in drawings and paintings down through the years. There's NOT A ONE of them that's even REMOTELY accurate!

You do realize, for instance, that 1,379.868687 miles is a distance comparable to the distance from Cleveland, Ohio, to Denver, Colorado! Could YOU build a city with a length that size? It's also a little longer than from Detroit, Michigan, to Houston, Texas! So, look at a globe (or a flat map, if you prefer) and map out those distances into as close a square as you can make them! That's HOW HUGE this city shall be! And, that's just its footprint! The height will also be as high as it is long or wide, but our atmosphere only extends to about 300 miles before it's so rarified that it's practically empty space!

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

You're right, something would have to give way. One must allow for all possibilities including a flat plane.

Hmpfh. There's no "flat plane" large enough!

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Oh I get it. Argued the problem in front of blank faces and far away gazes. The cognitive dissonance induces catatonia in the centroid of the mechanism and reality is shrugged off.

No, not "blank faces and far away gazes," just stubborn jacks who REFUSE to see the bigger picture!

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

We have the same problem in building cityscapes all over the earth this very day. 

Funny how you never see an architect design a building with a bigger cap to keep the walls plumb. And it's a serious issue in a distance of 500' feet. A 700' tall structure would have a noticeable lean within it's footprint and in relation to other buildings in the cityscape. We don't see it. 

No, no one has encountered the "same problem" in imagining building THIS city! Fortunately, it's not up to us to build!

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Reality? What's that? Yours? Mine? 

 

When I said "reality," I was referring to the simple rules of geometry, trigonometry, physics, chemistry, and geography. Why should God ever change these when they've worked so well down through the millennia? If that's not YOUR reality, then I advise you NOT to go on any mountain hikes! Gravity still works, whether you believe in it or not.

[Diaste]

On 2/11/2021 at 8:33 PM, Retrobyter said:

Think of simple physics and construction principles: Which is materially stronger, the square or the triangle?

In a square, you don't have to change the lengths of the sides to alter the square; one merely has to change the angles where the sides meet to change a square into a rhombus. If one wants to change anything about the triangle, a side must be broken or an angle taken apart! The triangle is more structurally sound than the square any day! In fact, to keep a square a square, there's often another support beam added to make a triangle out of two sides and the right angle between them!

It is a rigid structure to be sure. Inefficient as space. If it were the way to go then homes and offices would be built as pyramids. They aren't. Not a single pyramid extant is living space. 

I built homes for many years. Braces forming a hypotenuse are temporary. The structure is made rigid using shear walls with diaphragms and the temporary braces removed. 

People shy away from story and a halves

 because of the slopes in the 2nd story rooms. It's just wasted space.

 

On 2/11/2021 at 8:33 PM, Retrobyter said:

This phrase, "the head of the angle," means a CAPSTONE! Picture the statement in your mind's eye: This stone that was taken from the quarry was refused by the builders of the pyramid because it "didn't fit in" to their expectations. However, when they were done, ... oops! "Hey, guys, y'know, that stone we rejected some time back would make a PERFECT capstone!"

Yeshua` ("Jesus") was saying that HE was that capstone! And, where does He reside within the New Jerusalem?

Possibly, it seems more like corner than angle. In fact the word can be understood as chief. It's as proper to say, "The stone [which] the builders refused is become the top chief."

This aligns with King of kings and Lord of lords. Jesus is the Chief of chiefs. And 90 degrees is an angle as well. Just saying.

 

On 2/11/2021 at 8:33 PM, Retrobyter said:

Wouldn't it make sense to put the light on the highest point so that everyone would be able to walk in the light of it?

Is that enough evidence? It was for me.

I don't deny that. Still it's supposition. No location is given. So far I have not seen a way to infer the location. The size of the city is problematic in itself. Let's go with the stadia and say it's 1500 miles square on the base. If the throne is centered in the footprint it's going to be 750 miles from the gates, give or take the size of the throne itself. If people are coming to worship the Lord year after year as in Zech 14, "16And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

They have to travel the equivalent distance from Casper, WY to Albert Lea, MN just to get to the center of the city if they want to see the King. Not that they must see the King to worship Him but it's a very real possibility the people would come before the throne. That's not plausible if the throne is an additional 1500 miles above the floor.  

It would be like placing the throne out of sight of everyone. I don't see that as likely and there are no examples I know of for such a condition.

 

On 2/11/2021 at 8:33 PM, Retrobyter said:

However, second, he also knew that the angle of the sun's rays to the ground DID change as one moved north and south at the same time in the same longtude.

Also explained by a close sun. Fact is the distance to the sun could not be measured. It was assumption the rays of the sun were striking the earth in parallel. It was also assumed the change in angle of shadows was due to curve of a sphere. If the earth is a sphere or not is not something I really care about. The problem is assuming in spite of lack of evidence. He could not KNOW, he assumed as neither were measurable nor observable.

 

On 2/11/2021 at 8:33 PM, Retrobyter said:

 

On (what appears to be) flat ground or upon a large body of still water (at sea level, for instance), we can only see about 3 miles to the horizon in any direction. When we get higher, say upon a mountain like Mount Everest, our view extends to 208.8 miles to the horizon in any direction! This can be verified by recognizable monuments at those distances. A flat earth belief system cannot explain that.

Even looking down a hotel hallway shows the far wall to shrink in size in just 100'. Perspective is a reality unless it gets in the way of 'science'. 

I have yet to see a single video showing what you suggest. One would think in all the flat earth debunking I have seen that would have cropped up. Maybe you can suggest a source.

On 2/11/2021 at 8:33 PM, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, VERY FEW PEOPLE can comprehend just how MONUMENTALLY HUGE THIS city, the New Jerusalem, shall be! It defies the normal expectations of building other cities! It BOGGLES the mind just how AWESOMELY HUGE this city shall be! People until today have made ridiculously underestimates of this city in drawings and paintings down through the years. There's NOT A ONE of them that's even REMOTELY accurate!

Which is a real problem on a globe. A city that's a single structure with a 1500 sq/m footprint is going to have 71 mile drop from center to edge. 

On 2/11/2021 at 8:33 PM, Retrobyter said:

You do realize, for instance, that 1,379.868687 miles is a distance comparable to the distance from Cleveland, Ohio, to Denver, Colorado! Could YOU build a city with a length that size? It's also a little longer than from Detroit, Michigan, to Houston, Texas! So, look at a globe (or a flat map, if you prefer) and map out those distances into as close a square as you can make them! That's HOW HUGE this city shall be! And, that's just its footprint! The height will also be as high as it is long or wide, but our atmosphere only extends to about 300 miles before it's so rarified that it's practically empty space!

 

On 2/11/2021 at 8:33 PM, Retrobyter said:

Hmpfh. There's no "flat plane" large enough!

There is some anecdotal evidence that seems to show somewhere between the tropic of Capricorn and the Antarctic circle the circumnavigation route is 75,000 miles long. True or not I don't know. That would be a plenty big enough flat plane.

 

On 2/11/2021 at 8:33 PM, Retrobyter said:

No, no one has encountered the "same problem" in imagining building THIS city! Fortunately, it's not up to us to build!

You are correct. Because the problem doesn't exist. 

[Revelation Man]

On 4/7/2019 at 11:36 PM, Kristin said:

My two cents. The holy city will be a cube. Satan likes it to be a pyramid. I’m no mathematician, but the Bible seems to lay out a giant cube. Interesting. It really shouldn’t matter to us either way, except we must believe what God says and forget our preconceived notions on anything. He does it His way. Great news!  My way sucks. 

Just like the 144,000 Jews stands for ALL Israel who repent, as in the numbers 1o and 7 both stand for completeness and the number 12 stands for fulness.

Thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000. Its a code for the Completeness/Fulness there of.

Likewise, the 144,000 measurement just means ALL of the New Jerusalem, whatsoever tat happens to be. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Just like the 144,000 Jews stands for ALL Israel who repent, as in the numbers 1o and 7 both stand for completeness and the number 12 stands for fulness.

Thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000. Its a code for the Completeness/Fulness there of.

Likewise, the 144,000 measurement just means ALL of the New Jerusalem, whatsoever tat happens to be. 

Shabbat shalom, Revelation Man.

Whether the numbers represent concepts like "completeness" and "fulness" is icing on the cake. However, the actual CAKE is the fact that this LITERAL, PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE city shall be built to these measurements, just as the Tabernacle and the Temple were built to particular dimensions but were still LITERAL, PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE places one could go.

The book of the Revelation of Yeshua` the Messiah of God is NOT all figurative and allegorical. There are SEVERAL locations, much more than many choose to admit, that should be interpreted LITERALLY! The detailed description of the New Jerusalem is one of them.

[JohnR7]

On 4/7/2019 at 1:50 AM, Retrobyter said:

"The city LIES four-angled"; that is, it covers a square area!

The new Jerusalem is the Arab Continental plate. With air space and mineral rights. With the space program that would include the satellite space over the New Jerusalem. 

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

It is a rigid structure to be sure. Inefficient as space. If it were the way to go then homes and offices would be built as pyramids. They aren't. Not a single pyramid extant is living space. 

I built homes for many years. Braces forming a hypotenuse are temporary. The structure is made rigid using shear walls with diaphragms and the temporary braces removed. 

People shy away from story and a halves because of the slopes in the 2nd story rooms. It's just wasted space.

Shalom, Diaste.

You don't know what the angular space might be used for! Just because WE don't have an adequate need for such "inefficient space" today, does NOT mean that it won't be useful in the future! Furthermore, structural integrity for such a HUGE structure, as this city will be, may be the ONLY need for such "inefficient space!" Remember: A great pyramid was built in Egypt with TONS of inefficient rock in the shape of a pyramid - a monument called "Enoch's Pillar!" What was ITS purpose? Why did the "seventh from Adam" build such a structure AT GOD'S COMMAND?

Isaiah 19:16-25 (KJV)

16 In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which he shaketh over it. 17 And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it.

18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. 20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. 21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. 22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: 25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

This passage shall be fulfilled BEFORE the New Jerusalem arrives. It shall be fulfilled during the Millennium, the first 1000 years after Yeshua`s arrival, PRIOR TO the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ).

Zechariah 4:6-7 (KJV)

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying,

"This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, 'Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit,' saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone (the capstone) thereof with shoutings, crying, 'Grace, grace unto it.'"

Zechariah's tomb was created with the bas relief of a capstone on top of it!

The city is founded on the foundational levels; the foundational levels are tied to the walls "great and high"; and those walls great and high are founded upon the bedrock below the first foundation of the city.

One must remember that, although "the earth abides forever," its surface is subjected to the global "Fire" that is coming, prior to the re-forming of the "New Earth."

Just as our present earth bears little resemblance to the original earth before the global Flood, although the mass and size is the same, the New Earth will bear little resemblance to the current earth, despite having the same mass and size.

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 

(This is a statement about the first earth before the flood as described in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:6-13

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven." And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said,

"Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear":

and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth"; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth":

and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

So, the "Earth" or "Erets" was UNDER the waters above the firmament called "Heaven" or "Shaamaayim," and it was standing out of and ABOVE the waters ["Seas"] below the firmament called "Heaven" or "Shaamaayim.")

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

(This is the Flood of Water in Noach's 600th year.)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (the Great White Throne Judgment).

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is the Second Earth and the Second Sky in which we currently live, following the global Flood.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

These verses describe the global Fire to come, also telegraphed in verse 7 above and mentioned in Revelation 20:9. 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 This is the same "new heavens and a new earth" mentioned in Revelation 21:1.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Possibly, it seems more like corner than angle. In fact the word can be understood as chief. It's as proper to say, "The stone [which] the builders refused is become the top chief."

This aligns with King of kings and Lord of lords. Jesus is the Chief of chiefs. And 90 degrees is an angle as well. Just saying.

Now, you're just making stuff up. The Hebrew word, pinnaah, from which we get our word "pinnacle," is the TOP angle of a completed pyramid! Remember: the children of Israel lived and worked in Egypt for 430 years, 400 of those years as slaves, as soon as a leader came along who didn't know Yosef ("Joseph")! They may have actually worked on a pyramid or two! They were definitely working on SOME building project or other because they were making bricks reinforced by straw! Whether they worked on them or not, pyramids were CONSTANTLY visible to these slaves while in Egypt until Mosheh ("Moses") led them out. They KNEW what a capstone - ro'sh pinnaah - "head of-(the)-corner" - was!

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't deny that. Still it's supposition. No location is given. So far I have not seen a way to infer the location. The size of the city is problematic in itself. Let's go with the stadia and say it's 1500 miles square on the base. If the throne is centered in the footprint it's going to be 750 miles from the gates, give or take the size of the throne itself. If people are coming to worship the Lord year after year as in Zech 14, "16And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

I've BEEN "going with the stadia" such that one "stadios" is measured by the Roman mile markers throughout Europe, Asia Minor, Northern Africa, and the Middle East to be 607. 1422222... feet. Twelve thousand "stadia" would be 1379.868686... miles long. The Feast of Tabernacles, or Sukkot, is YESHUA`S BIRTHDAY! This will be especially necessary for the nations to observe during the Millennium BEFORE the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth, AFTER the Millennium.

When the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth, those who are left upon the New Earth will be GLAD to celebrate His birthday!

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

They have to travel the equivalent distance from Casper, WY to Albert Lea, MN just to get to the center of the city if they want to see the King. Not that they must see the King to worship Him but it's a very real possibility the people would come before the throne. That's not plausible if the throne is an additional 1500 miles above the floor.  

It would be like placing the throne out of sight of everyone. I don't see that as likely and there are no examples I know of for such a condition.

You've got to understand that when John said,

Revelation 21:23 (KJV)

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The Greek words are "efoortisen" for "did lighten" (which means "illuminated") and "ho luchnos" for "the light" (which means "the lamp"). It's the same as saying that God was the source of the light, but the FOCAL POINT of the light, the LIGHTBULB, so to speak, was the Lamb, Yeshua` the Messiah.

That MAY put the Lamb and the throne of the Lamb 1380 miles or so upward, but you don't know the means by which one has access to the higher levels of the city! It's possible, too, that Yeshua`, having FREE REIGN over all His Creation, could descend to the bottom floor to receive guests. He can also curtail how brightly He shines. For instance, soon after He rose as His glorified (glowing) body, He could appear to His disciples without glowing and walk along side of them down the road with them none the wiser that it was He. But then, appearing to Paul later on the road to Damascus, He could shine brighter than the noonday sun!

It's important to note that the sun and moon and stars ARE STILL PRESENT when we are living within the New Earth. It's just that the city "HAS NO NEED" of them! We, too, being changed into glowing bodies, can provide lights of our own, especially as we absorb God's light in close proximity to the Son, just as Mosheh ("Moses") did on Mount Sinai. See, we glow now, but only in the infrared waves of light as heat. However, when we are changed into our glorified (or rather, GLOWrified) bodies, we shall glow in the VISIBLE light spectrum! That's what Paul was telling us in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:39-43 (KJV)

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory (brightness; splendor) of the celestial is one, and the glory (brightness; splendor) of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory (brightness; splendor) of the sun, and another glory (brightness; splendor) of the moon, and another glory (brightness; splendor) of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory (brightness; splendor).

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour (insignificance); it is raised in glory (brightness; splendor): it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Also explained by a close sun. Fact is the distance to the sun could not be measured. It was assumption the rays of the sun were striking the earth in parallel. It was also assumed the change in angle of shadows was due to curve of a sphere. If the earth is a sphere or not is not something I really care about. The problem is assuming in spite of lack of evidence. He could not KNOW, he assumed as neither were measurable nor observable.

These aren't bad assumptions, after all. The reason why they assumed that the rays of the sun were striking the earth in parallel was because of SHADOWS cast by men, trees, mountains, and even the moon during an eclipse. The higher the better; the farther away the better! NOT EVERYONE saw the same thing during a solar eclipse! And, it was also found that parallel lines, as you noticed, tend to foreshorten as they were looked upon on edge, like the stalks of wheat in a sheaf on its side. If fact, the sunbeams looked VERY SIMILAR to the stalks of wheat viewed on edge!

Which leads to your next statement:

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Even looking down a hotel hallway shows the far wall to shrink in size in just 100'. Perspective is a reality unless it gets in the way of 'science'. 

Perspective falls short in very long distances, however. When a person is equipped with a good telescope, beyond 3 miles, things disappear from the bottom up! 

IF we were on a very flat surface, that would not happen! Instead, we should see objects at distances greater than 3 miles in their entirety, just getting smaller and smaller as the distance increases.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have yet to see a single video showing what you suggest. One would think in all the flat earth debunking I have seen that would have cropped up. Maybe you can suggest a source.

Sure. I would look up the YouTube video at (6) Flat Earth vs Round Earth | Explorer. You might also enjoy Neil Tyson Demonstrates Absurity of "Flat Earth".

Why do you think that people in the 1600s had such fears of ships falling off the edge of the earth? They had telescopes, and it was disconcerting to see ships sailing over the horizon, apparently either sinking into the ocean or sailing off the edge of the earth to their doom! Imagine their surprise when the ship they thought had met its end, came sailing home without incident!

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Which is a real problem on a globe. A city that's a single structure with a 1500 sq/m footprint is going to have 71 mile drop from center to edge. 

Yes, but one would NEVER notice it! It's like that fly on a neighborhood-sized ball! Wherever that fly flies and lands on the ball, it will appear to be a flat surface to the fly! It's like climbing a mountain that's rounded on top. How does one know when he  has actually reached the topmost point on that mountain?

Use this video for how to calculate the distance one can see to the horizon: boatsafe.com. If a person was actually sitting upon a flat earth, there would BE NO horizon; one could see FOREVER in a particular direction! HOWEVER, there IS a limit to how far one can see.

You can trust TRUE science; what one CANNOT trust is one's PHILOSOPHICAL BELIEF SYSTEM through which one INTERPRETS "science" (falsely so-called) to support that philosophy!

True science is OBSERVATION and REPEATABLE EXPERIMENTATION! True science is INDEPENDENT from one's cosmological or anthropological philosophies!

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is some anecdotal evidence that seems to show somewhere between the tropic of Capricorn and the Antarctic circle the circumnavigation route is 75,000 miles long. True or not I don't know. That would be a plenty big enough flat plane.

Well, that's not right. Maybe you were seeing kilometers and thinking miles, but according to NOAA.GOV, the actual value in miles is...

Quote

13,670-mile

The 196-day voyage was the world's first autonomous circumnavigation of Antarctica — a technological feat that was unfathomable just a decade ago. On August 3, 2019, an unmanned Saildrone 1020 completed a 13,670-mile journey around Antarctica in search of carbon dioxide.

That may not be true either, because 13,670 miles is only about 30,074 kilometers (using 2.2 km/mi for conversion). So, I don't know WHAT you're remembering. Suffice it to say, that what you were thinking is not accurate.

Two-dimensional maps are inevitably distorted because of the various kinds of projections to map a three-dimensional sphere onto a two-dimensional plane. There are four different types of map projection, according to GISTDA (Geo-Informatics and Space Technology Development Agency) (See Gistda.or.th for some examples): 

Quote

- Planar, Azimuthal or Zenithal projection
- Conic projection
- Cylindrical projection
- Mathematical or Conventional projection obtained from mathematical calculation.

Most of the world maps that you see on TV or in magazines are going to be the cylindrical projection that shows Antarctica all spread out across the bottom of the map. (Antarctica is NOT all that big, 5.5 million square miles. It's smaller than South America in size, 6.88 million square miles.) They also show Canada and Russia having a lot more land mass than they actually have, and the Arctic Ocean (often shown white, covered with ice) is all spread out like Antarctica, also.

Sometimes, you'll see an Azimuthal projection that's like a snapshot of one side of the globe. Occasionally, you'll see this as though the light source was at the center of the sphere, but most of the time, it's as though the light source is on the globe's surface opposite to the tangential or secantial plane for the projection. It's worth knowing what such a projection of the Southern Hemisphere looks like, showing a more accurate representation of the size of Antarctica.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

You are correct. Because the problem doesn't exist. 

It doesn't for me, anyway.

[Retrobyter]

On 2/13/2021 at 9:10 AM, JohnR7 said:

The new Jerusalem is the Arab Continental plate. With air space and mineral rights. With the space program that would include the satellite space over the New Jerusalem. 

Shalom, JohnR7.

Chicken coop2 is correct. You're forgetting that there will be a global Fire at the end of the Millennium, just as there was a global Flood during Noach's 600th year of life. Some have said that the "whole earth is destroyed," but that's not Biblical. The truth is the SURFACE of the earth is melted in incredible heat. As Kefa ("Peter") put it,

2 Peter 3:7-12 (KJV)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

One must remember that the word "earth" ("erets" in Hebrew, spelled "alef-(segol)-reish-(segol)-tsadday" and "gee" in Greek, spelled "gamma-eta") means the "DIRT," the "GROUND," or the "LAND" which can grow crops. It doesn't usually refer to the whole planet, even when "kol" is added in Hebrew or "pantee" is added in Greek, referring to "ALL the LAND." Why would God have to destroy the WHOLE planet, when only its SURFACE was marred by the selfish and sinful deeds of mankind?

No, there are Scripture passages that contradict the belief that God will destroy the whole earth:

Ecclesiastes 1:1-11 (KJV)

1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

2 "Vanity of vanities," saith the Preacher, "vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but THE EARTH ABIDETH FOR EVER.
5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. (Cyclonic winds, called "High pressure systems" and "Low pressure systems.")
7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. (the Water Cycle)
8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, "See, this is new"? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after."

Psalm 89:8-37 (KJV)

8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 THE HEAVENS ARE THINE, THE EARTH ALSO IS THINE: as for the world and the fulness thereof, THOU HAST FOUNDED THEM.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, "Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation."
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Remember, too, what John said about the New Earth:

Revelation 21:1 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And, that "were passed away" is LITERAL! It doesn't mean that the first heaven (sky) and the first earth were destroyed; it means that they literally PASSED BY AND AWAY!

What "sea" was "no more?" ANY sea that affected the area of Jerusalem where the New Jerusalem would set down: The Mediterranean Sea, the Dead Sea, the Black Sea, the Red Sea, even the Sea of Galilee, will be no more, and we're told elsewhere that all the mountains will be leveled. The global Fire will prepare the New Earth for the landing of the New Jerusalem.

It will be a LITERAL global Fire to melt the elements and fuse the plates to prepare for the landing of a LITERAL City called "Yerushalayim haChadashah."

[JohnR7]

On 2/15/2021 at 8:46 PM, Retrobyter said:

global Fire

The fire is spiritual: "8And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’” (Zechariah 13:9)

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

The fire is spiritual: "8And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’” (Zechariah 13:9)

Shalom, JohnR7

ANOTHER good reason for me to HATE that word "spiritual!" "The fire is spiritual?" The fire is a windy fire? What does that even mean?!

No, this fire will be a LITERAL FIRE! The elements are melted! The air is on fire! The works of mankind are burned up!

[JohnR7]

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, this fire will be a LITERAL FIRE! The elements are melted! The air is on fire! The works of mankind are burned up!

We have already seen this in California. So the prophecy has already been 1 Corinthians 6:18. Heaven is mostly spiritual. We will not have our physical body in Heaven. Our physical body returns to the earth until the resurrection at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. 

It could be we could have a nuclear war. That as been a consideration for well over 50 years now. It could be only a remnant or 10% of the population would survive to repopulate the earth. Even as recent as 12,000 years ago there was an extinction and only 10% of the population made the transition.

As a general rule first we look at the literal and then we look at the symbolic and numerical to see what the meaning is for us today in our generation.  Even there are rules for Bible interpretation that we learn in Bible College.