Takoda Posted June 4, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 137 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/11/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/27/1943 Share Posted June 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Tristen said: Homosexuality is about desire and action. Desires and actions are moral issues – and therefore subject to moral judgements Homosexual desire is innate and in human populations is completely normal for about 3-5% of the population. Innate desire is not sinful but actions may be sinful for both homosexual and heterosexual people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firm Foundation Posted June 4, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 4 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,280 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 854 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2019 On 5/29/2019 at 3:32 AM, thomas t said: Hi all, yesterday, a fellow poster said homosexuals can be asked to leave at church. In my view, sexuality is part of the identity of a person. It belongs to them. Asking them to leave just for entertaining a same sex relationship would mean condemning the person - not the act, I think. Moreover, this would stand in sharp contrast to the treatment of remarried couples (marrying a divorced woman). From all I know from churches, they never get asked to leave church. Disclaimer: In this thread I will be discussing discrimination only - as opposed to the question whether or not it is sin to live in a same sex relationship. I want to keep the thread as focussed as possible. Let's discuss discrimination at churches. Regards, Thomas Personally, I think it is entirely up to the church what is acceptable to them, freedom of religion. If they want to accept divorce and remarried couples but not homosexuals, that is their right. I don't see both as equally sinful, and many others don't either. God never allowed homosexual unions, even under the law of Moses. Homosexuals were put to death. God did allow a bill of divorcement. Homosexual acts are not only sinful, but they go against nature, God's design, and such unions can never be made right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted June 4, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,653 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2019 16 hours ago, thomas t said: Hi Willa, equating gays and rapists is not fair. Rapes have victims. You know that. So please... Thomas It is based on what God thinks of homosexuality which He considers to be an abomination. That you think there are no victims means nothing. God's opinion is what matters. He says there will be none in heaven. But the sin of pride is what compounds their sin. People who are too proud to confess their sin to God and flaunt their sin are worse than just being guilty of sinning with the same sex. As I said, we are all guilty of sin and God wants all to be saved. Church is the best place for all who desire to be forgiven as long as it is a Bible believing church and not one that preaches the virtues ??? of being homosexual. We all need to put on the mind of Christ and see sin as God sees it, not as the world sees it. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firm Foundation Posted June 4, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 4 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,280 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 854 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2019 On 6/1/2019 at 9:43 AM, thomas t said: Hi Tristen, Is that a new idea for you? Did you know, a scientist died 115 years ago introduced homosexuality as an illness (the corresponding German article is more clear in this respect). So I think this topic must have been tested and discussed already. Maybe some 120 years ago, it might have been some vaild basis for discussion. Today, pathologisation of gays/lesbians is homophobic, I think. Let me tell you something out of my personal life: In the last forums where I used to be a member in (jesus.de), people started to call me mentally ill, this went on for months. They didn't like my personal behavior, but they didn't seem to be able to refute my position on the subject level, so they chose to discuss me as a person in that way. This is how I interpret the situation in that forum. In my opinion, labelling those who hold uncomportable views as "mentally ill" is tyranny, (since you were using that word). Consider I would think you are a pig. Do I have the right to express my opinion. No. This would be offensive. Freedom of expression isn't unlimited. Homes is one thing, public places is another. Churches are meant to be open for the public. We Christians want to reach the public. So we shouldn't throw one group out. Amnesty introduced discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation as a human rights issue on that occasion. Employers don't have the right to only employ straight people, for instance. They would get sued for discrimination. Likewise, when churches hire straight people only, I see discrimination occuring, too. Homophobia can be compared to racism, which is a human rights issue, too. When you ban any Canadian from your church, it is being racist, too. Similarly, when you throw gay people out solely on grounds of their sexuality, it is of course a human rights issue (discrimination). We all have a responsibility with regard to our human rights. Christians are the first to claim human rights when their brothers and sisters are being persecuted. I'm not saying, any discrimination is wrong, though. Discrimination of people not willing to pay enough is common practice in business. Hi BB, no I use a good Bible that tries its best to be as accurate as possible, which means that they try their best to use a literal translation (it's a German one). But to me, "heathen" means "secular people". I don't discuss doctrine with them when I meet them. how long? (note that above I asked a similar question to Omega...). Yes the Bible speaks about judging, but for me it is mainly a part of discerning actions. Jesus will judge persons. I'm having the same debate with Omegaman (same link). For the record, I oppose all antidescrimination laws. In a free country, you should be able to discriminate. There is a good reason why homosexuality can be considered a mental illness. It goes against nature and the biological purpose of sex, reproduction. That is just common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firm Foundation Posted June 4, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 4 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,280 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 854 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2019 On 5/29/2019 at 7:11 AM, thomas t said: Hi Omegaman, thank you for your answer. If you lie, confess. Jesus will brush that sin away. And then you are clean again, no more a sinner. This is at least my own theology. Even if this happens 10 times a day, the outcome is always the same. ... but when it comes to sexual orientation... we are talking about a personality trait. So... will Jesus brush personality traits away? If so, prove it please. This is what I'd love to tell you. Prove it, please, before you say it's just to make them leave when they make their relationship apparent. Moreover, a close relationship belongs to your life. Jesus sees relationships as parts of your body sometimes (see Zech 2:12). Jesus never speaks about a lie as having a part of your body. So, there is a difference, I'd conclude. Regards, Thomas According to 1 Corinthians 6:9,10, being effeminate, a personality trait will keep you out of heaven. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mclees Posted June 4, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 1,915 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 910 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2019 Paul said in Romans they are given over to a reprobate mind. A reprobate mind dismisses what is, wicked, and immoral as being evil and against God. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoda Posted June 4, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 137 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/11/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/27/1943 Share Posted June 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Firm Foundation said: For the record, I oppose all antidescrimination laws. In a free country, you should be able to discriminate. There is a good reason why homosexuality can be considered a mental illness. It goes against nature and the biological purpose of sex, reproduction. That is just common sense. However, homosexual behaviour does not seem to be a matter of choice because it is observed as part of the natural range of sexual behaviour in over 200 species. In some of those cases it is observed as a natural response to the pressures of overpopulation. Sexual response and sexual behaviour is far more complex than was thought in the past. Common sense is not a reliable guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firm Foundation Posted June 4, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 4 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,280 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 854 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, Takoda said: However, homosexual behaviour does not seem to be a matter of choice because it is observed as part of the natural range of sexual behaviour in over 200 species. In some of those cases it is observed as a natural response to the pressures of overpopulation. Sexual response and sexual behaviour is far more complex than was thought in the past. Common sense is not a reliable guide. It doesn't matter if it's a choice. It goes against God's order. Practicing homosexuals are going to hell, so it really doesn't make much difference if we label it a mental illness or not. It is a sin, and churches don't need to tolerate it. If we are talking about people that got saved and left the lifestyle, by all means welcome them in, but not those claiming it remains their identity. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted June 4, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,653 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Takoda said: However, homosexual behaviour does not seem to be a matter of choice because it is observed as part of the natural range of sexual behaviour in over 200 species. In some of those cases it is observed as a natural response to the pressures of overpopulation. Sexual response and sexual behaviour is far more complex than was thought in the past. Common sense is not a reliable guide. This is a prime example of a world view. We all need to put on the mind of Christ and see sin as God sees it, not as the world sees it. 28 minutes ago, Willa said: It is based on what God thinks of homosexuality which He considers to be an abomination. That you think there are no victims means nothing. God's opinion is what matters. He says there will be none in heaven. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted June 4, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,367 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,338 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Takoda said: Homosexual desire is innate and in human populations is completely normal for about 3-5% of the population. Innate desire is not sinful but actions may be sinful for both homosexual and heterosexual people. Hi Takoda, From a Christian perspective, the One who determines what is sinful and what is "completely normal" is God. Desires can absolutely be sinful. God has explicitly determined, through His word, that the desire for homosexual sex is a carnal, ungodly desire. I think you are using the word "innate" to imply that the homosexual desire is somehow intrinsic to the human experience of some - i.e. a birth condition. Yet God has unequivocally deemed homosexual practice to be a sin, so that desire is not something God designed into anyone, but is rather a corruption of what God designed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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