trinity

[Daniel Marsh]

11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings leah777, 

David 1701 was asking if I was a JW, and I answered him no and mentioned a few differences between my personal belief and the JWs ideas. In the process I did not disclose exactly who I am in fellowship with, but nevertheless I was using the expression “we” to indicate my fellowship and the teachings that we share. I belong to a lay movement and in my region in NSW Australia there are 8 meetings in fellowship. We have visiting speakers from some of these meetings and sometimes from further afield.

I was not quoting from anywhere, but expressing my beliefs and the beliefs of my fellowship in brief terms.

Kind regards Trevor

Edited June 15, 2020 by Daniel Marsh

[Daniel Marsh]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laymen's_Home_Missionary_Movement

https://thecenters.org/searchgroups.aspx?groupid=169

https://www.biblestandard.com/

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk033u0w9Q1DvOFO9ttnAI8Tuw3JXoQ%3A1592264503732&ei=NwfoXtiLLN-C9PwPlMGkgAc&q=laymen's+home+missionary+movement+refuted&oq=laymen's+home+missionary+movement+refuted&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCAAQzQI6AggAOgYIABAWEB46BQghEKABOgUIIRCrAlCD-QpY6IULYLSIC2gAcAB4AIABzQGIAckJkgEFMC42LjKYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiYg4jB_4TqAhVfAZ0JHZQgCXAQ4dUDCAw&uact=5

 

[Daniel Marsh]

That Jehovah is the Most High God—infinite, eternal, and unchangeable, perfect in wisdom, justice, love and power; that Jesus, His only begotten Son, had a pre-human existence as the mighty Word, or Logos, "the beginning of the creation of God," "the firstborn of every creature," the Father's Agent in all the works of creation (John 1:1-3; 6:51; 17:5; Rev. 3:14; Col. 1:15-17).

That the Word "was made flesh," born of "a virgin," and thus became the man Jesus, "made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death," yet "separate from sinners" (John 1:14; Isa. 7:14; Heb. 2:9; 7:26).

That Christ is Divine; that He was "put to death in the flesh, but quickened [made alive] in the Spirit," made "a quickening Spirit," highly exalted, and "given a name which is above every name"; "who only hath immortality [God being excepted]" (1 Pet. 3:18; 1 Cor. 15:45, 50; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Tim. 6:16; Heb. 1:3, 13).

That the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and is manifested in all true Christians (Luke 11:11-13; John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7-15; 1 Cor. 2:9-16; 3:16: Eph. 3:16; 4:4, 30; 2 Tim. 1:7).

That man was created perfect, in God's character image, and that through sin he fell under the penalty—not of eternal life in torment, but--of death, destruction, which he is undergoing by exposure to various evils, permitted by God to teach him by experience the evil nature and effects of sin and the desirability of hating and forsaking it (Gen. 1:26-31; 2:17; 3:1-31; Eccles. 7:29; Rom. 5:12-19; 6:21-23; 8:20-22; 11:32; Psa. 76:7-10; 90:1-17).

That the Church, the 144,000, gathered from among Jews and Gentiles, is God's Temple, "his workmanship"; that "the church of the firstborn" includes the Great Multitude, "living stones" in this great Temple's Court, together with the Ancient and Youthful Worthies Millennially; that this great Temple's construction has been in progress throughout the Gospel Age, beginning when Christ became mankind's Redeemer and the Chief Corner Stone of this Temple, through which, when finished, God's blessings shall come to "all people," and they shall gain access to Him (Rev. 7:1-17; 14:1; Rom. 11:11, 12; 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:10, 20-22; Joel 2:28, 29; 2 Tim. 2:20; Heb. 11:38-40; Gen. 28:14).

That meantime the pre-Millennial preparation—the chiseling, shaping and polishing—of the Gospel-Age consecrated believers in Christ's atonement for sin progresses; and when the last of these shall have been made ready, the great Master Workman will bring all together in the resurrection; and the Temple, filled with His glory, will become the meeting place between God and men throughout the Millennial Age (Rev. 15:5-8; 21:3).

That the basis of hope for everlasting life for the elect and the non-elect is in the fact that God "is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe"; that Jesus "by the grace of God tasted death for every man," "a ransom [corresponding price] for all"; that God "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"; and that Jesus is "the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world," "in due time" (1 Tim. 4:10; 2:3-6; Heb. 2:9; John 1:9; Num. 14:21; Isa. 11:9; 40:5; Jer. 31:34; Hab. 2:14).

That the hope of God's true people now being developed is that they will have an abundant entrance into God's everlasting Kingdom, and that their present mission is to develop and perfect themselves and others in Christlikeness, to witness for God and Christ to the world, and to prepare for the work of blessing all the families of the earth in the coming Kingdom on earth (Rom. 12:2; Phil. 2:12; Gal. 5:22, 23; 2 Pet. 1:5-11; 3:18; John 18:37; Acts 1:8; 1 Cor. 9:16; 2 Tim. 4:2). That Jesus is the satisfaction for the sins of the Church and the world; that the Gospel Age is the Church's judgment day; that God has appointed a Thousand-year Day in which He "will judge the world in righteousness," with Satan bound; that while none of Adam's race get a second chance, each of them will have one full, free, fair opportunity to gain eternal life through Christ, either in this life or after being awakened from the dead (1 John 2:2; 1 Pet. 4:17; Acts 17:31; 2 Pet. 3:7, 8; Rev. 20:2-7, 12, 13; John 5:28-29 (ASV); Acts 24:15; 1 Thes. 4:13, 14).

That the gospel was preached to Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed"; that the Christ, Head and Body, is the great Seed of Abraham (the rest of God's people are the subordinate seed), through whom "all the families of the earth shall be blessed"; that this blessing of salvation for the world will come during Jesus' Second Advent, in "the times of restitution of all things," when God's Kingdom will be established on earth (Gen. 12:3; Gal. 3:7-9, 16, 29; Eph. 1:22, 23; Acts 3:19-23; Matt. 6:10; Rev. 22:17).

That we are now in "the time of the end," with its unprecedented "time of trouble," the Epiphany, or Apocalypse, period, in which Jesus reveals Himself in His Second Advent; that He is now overthrowing Satan's dominion; that His reign of peace and righteousness is soon to be established; and that Israel's return to their homeland presages the beginning of His reign (Dan. 12:1, 4, 9, 10; Matt. 24:21; 2 Tim. 4:1; Zeph. 3:8, 9; Dan. 2:35, 44; Amos 9:11-15; Rev. 11:15; 21:1-8).

https://www.biblestandard.com/what-we-believe.html

 

does the above fairly represent your beliefs?

[other one]

Nope.  Jehovah is what Jesus was before he sat that aside and became a man.  But Jehovah/Jesus is not the Father.  Moses and 73 others saw the God of Israel (Jehovah)  but jesus tells us that no one has ever seen the father...  Jehovah can not be the father

[Daniel Marsh]

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/bowman_robert/trinity/trinity.cfm

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

 

[JohnD]

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

This verse kills the Christadelphian / Jehovah's Witness interpolation that Jehovah created ho logos / Michael and in turn ho logos / Michael created all other things... 

John 1:1–3 (AV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:13–16 (AV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Clearly Jesus (preincarnate) is the sole Creator of all things created in the beginning. Isaiah 44:24 calls him Jehovah. Genesis 1:1 calls him God.

The only creation of God the Father is the body of the Son (John 1:14b / Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5). So God the Father is not the Jehovah of Isaiah 44:24.  Jesus is.

God the Father did not create heave and earth by proxy according to Isaiah 44:24 which was explicit to state Jehovah created alone / by himself.  

 

 

[A Christian 1985]

God is Triune!

The Triune God

            There is nothing more mysterious or enigmatic than the Triune God. How utterly foolish are the attempts by men to systematize God in their futile efforts to understand Him with the human mind. As we will see God is totally beyond mental comprehension. How fortunate that it is absolutely unnecessary for us to comprehend God in order to apprehend Him. God only requires us to receive Him and be one in Him. But how many Christians have been distracted into trying to comprehend God, thinking that in so doing, they are growing spiritually. How subtle is our adversary!

            ... baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: (Matt. 28:19).

            Anyone vaguely aware of the Bible knows that the God of Christians is a God of three Persons, yet few people realize the significance behind this.

            and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. (Luke 3:22)

            According to our mentality, this verse proves that there are three separate persons: the Father in heaven, the Son on the earth, and the Holy Spirit as a dove.

            Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... (Eph. 1:2‑3).

            Logical mental understanding of these verses proves that God the Father is a distinctly separate entity from the Lord Jesus Christ.

            Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)

            But this verse refers to Christ as our God and Savior. Mentally, logic would tell us that we must have two Gods‑ God the Father and God the Son.

                        ... how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Luke 11:13)

            The former treatise I made, 0 Theophilus, concerning all that Jesus began both to do and to teach, until the day in which he was received up, after that he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit unto the apostles whom he had ordained: (Acts 1:1‑2).

            Obviously (according to mental logic), the Holy Spirit must be an entity distinctly separate from the Father and the Son.

 

            But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3‑4)

            A comparison of these two verses shows that the Holy Spirit is equated with God. Do we have three different gods?

            For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus. (1 Tim. 2:5)

            Clearly, God and Christ are separate, according to logical mental evaluation of this verse.

…and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. (Gal.3: 19‑20 RSV)

            Yet this verse states definitely that Christ and God are not two, but one.    

            who hath declared it of old? have not I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides me. (Isa. 45:21)

There is one, and only one, God.

            For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulders: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isa 9:6)

            The child who is born unto us is here called the Mighty God, and the son given unto us is called the Everlasting Father. This child, of course, is Jesus Christ. Can the mind comprehend that the Son is called the Father? No. All we can say is Wonderful!

            And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father ... (Rev. 1:6 Intl. Greek).

            “Unto God and his Father.” Try to smoke that in a theological pipe! God has a Father? This does not compute, mentally.

 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, 0 God, is forever and ever.  . . . (Heb. 1:8)

            Here the Son is directly called God.

 

 

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (Eph. 6:17)

            According to the original Greek, which refers to Spirit. Thus here we are told that the Spirit is the word of God.

            In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us ... (John 1:1, 14).

... Christ: for in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, (Col. 2:8‑9).

            Here we are told that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. So the Spirit is the Word, God is the Word, and this Word, which is God and the Spirit, became flesh, Christ. Do you still think that you can mentally comprehend God?

            If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.... Jesus saith unto him, “Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how say eat thou, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the father in me? ...  (John 14:7, 9‑10).

            Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. (John 8:68)

            I (Jesus) said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. (John 10:30)

Jesus Christ is God, manifested in the flesh.

            For I know that this shall turn out to my salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. (Phil. 1:19)

            And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, saying, Abba, Father. (Gal. 4:6)

            Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Cor. 3:16)

            Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? (1 Cor. 6:19)

            Believers have the Holy Spirit in them, the Spirit of God in them, and the Spirit of Christ the Son in them. Are these three separate Spirits?

 

            But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit ... But Peter said unto her, How is it that you have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? ... (Acts 5:3, 9).

            Here we see, by comparing these two verses, that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord.

… These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, ... (Rev. 3:1)

... and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne; (Rev. 1:4).

which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the Earth. (Rev. 5:6)

            Just a short interruption here in order to prevent a possible misunderstanding: The number seven in the scriptures signifies completion and/or intensification, in this age. Seven Spirits in these verses does not mean literally seven different Spirits; rather, it signifies that today God's Spirit is intensified seven fold in this age in order to accomplish the completion of His purpose.

            But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1 Cor. 2:10)

... because the love of God hath been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, which was given unto us. (Rom. 5:5)

            The Holy Spirit is the aspect of the Triune God who applies to us all that God is and has accomplished.

            And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.... but the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you. (John 14:16‑17, 26)

            A little while, and ye behold me no more; and again a little while, and ye shall see me. (John 16:16)

            And when he had said this, he (Jesus) breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit: (John 20:22).

            And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (Acts 1:9)

            And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened. And the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7:56)

            ... and lo, I am with you always, even unto the consummation of the age. (Matt. 28:20)

            How is it possible that Christ is both in the heavens at the right hand of God and yet He is with us always?

Or know ye not as to your own selves that Jesus Christ is in you? ... (2 Cor. 13:6).

            In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. ... and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (John 14:20, 23)

How can Christ (and the Father) come into us? Only as the Spirit!

 

            He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not (John 1:10)

            hath at the end of these day spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; (Heb. 1:2)

            ...even the blood of Christ: who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of the times for your sake. (1 Pet. 1: 19‑20)

            God has always intended even in eternity past, to partake of His creation by incarnation. This is because it is only through incarnation that He will achieve His purpose.

            Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them. (1 Pet. 1:10‑11)

            What we can say about the Triune God is the following:

1.  God as the Father is the source of all things, but as the Father no man has seen Him.

2. God as the Son expressed fully (in human form) to the universe everything that God is.

3.  Yet everything that God the Father is and all that the Son has accomplished has no value to us if it cannot be made available to us. Thus, after Christ fulfilled God's purpose, He was resurrected bodily as a God‑man, and ascended the throne in heaven, re‑entering eternity. Then He became the Spirit, so that this could be applied to us for our benefit by His Spirit coming into our spirit, making all that He is and all that He has done available to us. If you are born again, you have both the Father and the Son in you as the Spirit.

            But there are some barely comprehensible implications from this. From the standpoint of eternity, where there is no time, Christ has always been and has always

accomplished His work of incarnation and redemption. Thus it is that Christ keeps popping up in a hidden sort of way in the Old Testament, before (time wise) His incarnation.

            And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him: ... but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah. (Gen. 18:1‑2, 22)

            And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. ... And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.... And Jacob called the name of the place Penial: for, said he, I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (Gen. 32:24, 28,30)

            And the angel of Jehovah said unto him, wherefore askest thou after my name, seeing it is wonderful? ... But the angel of Jehovah did no more appear to Manoah or to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of Jehovah. And Manoah said unto his wife, we shall surely die, because we have seen God. (Judg. 13:18, 21‑22)

            God the Father is spirit, yet in these Old Testament verses, He shows up as a man. How is this possible? Because the living God is not just God: He is God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

            Father, glorify thy name. There came therefore a voice out of heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.... Jesus answered and said, This voice hath not come for my sake, but for your sakes. (John 12:28‑30)

            We see here that heavenly special effects were for the benefit of onlookers, being otherwise unnecessary.

            But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:39) 

 

            Although Christ, from an eternal standpoint, has always done His work of incarnation and redemption, we are living a temporal existence in time. So, from our viewpoint in time, God before the incarnation was God the Father only; since the incarnation He is expressed also as the Son, and since the ascension as the Holy Spirit. This is why, even though Christ was around in the Old Testament times, His work could not be available to the Old Testament believers. The Old Testament believers could only took forward to the coming of Christ by faith and a few would express God's authority by being clothed in an outward way with His Spirit, but they could not experience regeneration in their human spirit. God abides by His temporal rules: only after the ascension could men be regenerated.

            And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ... And God said, behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed ... (Gen. 1:26, 29).

            God refers to Himself as us in one verse and three verses later refers to Himself as I. Is God us or is God I? Is God three or is God one?

            And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, whom shall I end, and who will go for us? ... (Isa. 6:8).

            Again, is God I or is God us? Do you really think that you can understand God with your mind?

            The living God is not just God; he is expressed in three Persons, which are not separate persons but three different aspects of the same God. Mentally, it is impossible for something to be two different things at the same time. But God is three and God is one, both and the same. The living God, the God of all Christians, is not merely God‑ He is Triune‑ being the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit‑ yet He is one. He is expressed as three Persons, yet these three are one. God is one and God is three. God is one‑in‑three and God is also three‑in‑one. Do not try to make God conform to any kind of mental understanding; all such striving is vain and pointless. The reason our God is Triune is so we can receive Him and He can come into us. All this can only be experienced by us in and with our human spirit, not with our mind. If you are vainly trying to understand God mentally, you are missing the boat spiritually. What we can say is this: the living God is Triune, by no means is He the same as the god of the world's religions‑ that is the god of their imagination, even the god of this world. Also, we are no longer limited to experiencing the God of the Old Testament. This is the age of the New Testament. Today we experience Jehovah plus! Today we have God the Father plus all that He has accomplished as a man in the Son. All this is as available to us today as the air around us; we just have to learn how to use our spiritual lungs.