Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Wrote above, "Again, this is one of those long held errors that is so ingrained in eschatology circles that it is hard to get out of the system, yet to arrive at truth we must explore this."

You deflect from answering this and put the burden of proof on me. The Proof for me is in the literal reading of the text. Each beast is similar, yet they are distinct. You do not confuse the first three, yet you lump the fourth in as the beast makes war with the saints. actually The beast of revelation 17 is more similar to the dragon than he is to the beast of rev. 13. 

1 and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (13:2)

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (17:3) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (17:8)

You see, The descriptives are about as dissimilar as can be one looks like bear, and a leopard, and lion. One has crowns, the other does not. This is just the literal reading of the two.

It is you who has to prove without a doubt that these beasts are one in the same, for the eyewitness testifies that they look different. "how many of them are walking around?" is irrelevant of a question as I have ever seen. 

Yes it is a stretch. It is the fallacy of generalization... That is to say because they are similar, they are the same. In Our world, this fallacy is where racism is born, but in theology, this is where we fail to rightly divide the Word of God. The Word of God can be under divided, or over divided, and rightly divided. When Rightly divided, the Truth is revealed. When under divided or over divided, the truth is stretched, and in a criminal case stretching the truth leads to false accusation, and false timelines and in some cases false convictions. How many a Black man is right now in jail because they look similar to the perpetrator of the crime, because the eyewitness failed to distinguish subtle variations in the two suspects. Well, in this case, we are given very distinct differences in the literal reading of the passages, and the Onus is most certainly on you to tie them together. Maybe the leopard, bear, lion outfit was just a disguise? Prove it. Maybe The scarlet color was just a result of the crime committed? Prove it. Maybe this is same beast "displaying various attributes? Prove it. As the old saying goes, when you assume, you make an A** out of U and ME.

I say this to challenge you, and your assumptions. When You get this right, I believe the timeline becomes apparent. If you do not get this right, your timeline is flawed.   

Hi dh,

Let me give it a shot......to prove the beasts from Rev 13, Rev 17, and Daniel 7 are all the same beast:

Revelation speaks of two “beasts” and Daniel speaks of four “beasts” so we need to specify who THE Beast is. In Revelation we learn there is the “Beast from the sea” and the “beast from the earth” also known as the False Prophet.

 I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names . . . Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.  He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence.  (Rev. 13: 1, 11-12 NASB)

Here John says...."I saw a beast"........."Then I saw another beast".........so John is seeing TWO different beasts.

 

The “sea” symbolizes gentile nations and the “land” or “earth” is Israel. So the first Beast arises out of gentile nations and the second beast, the  False Prophet (who most likely will say he is the historic Jesus) will appear to be from Israel.

There are four, main relevant chapters in scripture that identify the Beast: Rev. 13, Rev. 17, Dan. 7 and Dan. 2. Proving these scriptures are all referring to the same Beast is an easy matter. He is identified by his heads and his horns.

A fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. (Dan. 7: 7 NASB, )

 

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.  And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.  (Rev. 13: 1-2 NASB, )

This is talking about the same beast......."Then I saw a beast"...."And the beast which I saw"

 I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. (Rev. 17: 3, )

 From this analysis we can see that these  chapters of the Bible are all describing the same thing: the Beast.

Scripture also describes Satan as having these same seven heads:

Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red (Gk: PYRROS, meaning “fiery red”) dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems (Gk: DIADEMATA, meaning “kingly crowns”) . . . And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world. (Rev. 12: 3,9 NASB, )

From this passage we learn that the dragon is Satan himself. He is identified as being “fiery red;” the color associated with Esau and Edom. We see he also has seven heads and ten horns. Finally, we also see that the dragon is “of old.” He is same creature who appeared as a serpent and deceived Eve in the Garden.

[douggg]

On 7/18/2019 at 6:48 PM, dhchristian said:

Yes that is what I am saying. 

 

Day 1 is the first day of the 7 years (2520 days).

Day 1185 the AOD will be setup.     2520-1335.

Count forward from Day 1185, the 1290 days to Day 2475.

On Day 2475, the 6th seal event will take place.

The armies of the world are given 45 days to prepare to make war on Jesus.

At the end of the 45 days, Jesus descends to earth on Day 2520 and destroys them.

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

So? You said it. You're convinced. That alone does not render your opinion axiomatic. 

No, My opinion is not axiomatic, I am trying to encourage you to expand your thinking. 

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, you made the original assertion there are two beasts with 7 heads and 10 horns. As yet no direct statement exists to prove that or refute it. It's a premise sans proof therefore fallacious. You just want it to be that way and as proof you say the actions prove they are separate entities. Maybe. Or it's various acts of the same beast, which is more plausible based on the whole story.

No, Wrong, the text gives us two distinct beasts, a Literal reading would tell any novice this. The fact is you come at this with a preconceived notion that these are describing one beast. this is the Long held view that many have in eschatology, which I am saying is a mistake, a tradition, that is held, without knowing the reason why. The fact that you do not want to prove this should be a sign that this long held view is problematic.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's sounds a bit perturbed and it's an honest question.

The mistake you are making is using action to determine identity. Actions and behavior establish M.O., not identity. No investigation would ever claim to know the identity of a criminal because something was stolen. Intent and future behavior could be ascertained but identity needs a description, which we have in the 7 heads and 10 horns.

No, I am not making that mistake, and no I am not perturbed, the Question you posed makes no sense in a debate format, especially since I say there are four of them, No more, no less. It is not like I am adding a fifth that is not in the text, I am saying there are four. You say there are three. To Ask how many of them are walking around is irrelevant, I have already answered the question.

re: Action to determine identity. Actually, you are doing this, I am not. I am reading and stating the text and the descriptive words of the beast that John uses as my proof. One beast is described having ten crowns, the other does not. One is described as being like a leopard, with feet of a bear and a mouth of a lion. The other is not only he is described as being scarlet in color. No color is associated with the beast of rev. 13, unless it is the color of a leopard, which is yellow and black as opposed to scarlet. Again, the dragon too has seven heads and ten horns, yet you distinguish this from the beast of rev. 13, and rightly so, for he receives his power from the dragon. The text clearly distinguishes between these similar, and not to mention the dragon only has seven crowns. Here is the direct quote from you showing you are using action to determine identity "It's not a stretch to say the two reports of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns of Revelation is the same beast in different circumstance and displaying various attributes."  

As you can see you contradicted yourself. 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

You didnt bring race and prejudice into this discussion, did you? It sure looks like it. Nothing can be gained when it can be construed scrutiny and opposition is racist and prejudiced. 

I Was using race as an example, not accusing you of Racism. Point being something that is similar does not make them the same.

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

The challenge is not accepted and I want no more contact if this behavior continues. 

That is your choice of course, but know this, defensiveness in a debate is a sign of weakness of the position you take. I Have been through this many a time with "snowflake Christians" Who cannot handle it when their opinions and dogma are brought under scrutiny.  

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The “sea” symbolizes gentile nations and the “land” or “earth” is Israel. So the first Beast arises out of gentile nations and the second beast, the  False Prophet (who most likely will say he is the historic Jesus) will appear to be from Israel.

I agree.

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

There are four, main relevant chapters in scripture that identify the Beast: Rev. 13, Rev. 17, Dan. 7 and Dan. 2. Proving these scriptures are all referring to the same Beast is an easy matter. He is identified by his heads and his horns.

A fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. (Dan. 7: 7 NASB, )

 

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.  And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.  (Rev. 13: 1-2 NASB, )

This is talking about the same beast......."Then I saw a beast"...."And the beast which I saw"

I agree up to this point.

 

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

From this passage we learn that the dragon is Satan himself. He is identified as being “fiery red;” the color associated with Esau and Edom. We see he also has seven heads and ten horns. Finally, we also see that the dragon is “of old.” He is same creature who appeared as a serpent and deceived Eve in the Garden.

And too a certain extent I agree with this, Yes, Satan is involved in all of these beasts, as he has been throughout history, But yet they are distinct beasts. The Big part of the debate here is that the beast in rev 13:1 and the beast in rev. 17 are different beasts. This beast of rev. 17 is said to have existed in the past, is not in existence now (When John saw the vision) and is to come. Satan, the dragon was around, The Mystery of iniquity and the man of sin was said to around in spirit form as the many antichrists john spoke of in his epistle. But this last beast will re-emerge to the shock of everyone in the world (with the exception of those whose names are in the book of life). Perhaps this is because they are not expecting another beast to emerge on the scene after the antichrist is killed?

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Day 1 is the first day of the 7 years (2520 days).

Day 1185 the AOD will be setup.     2520-1335.

Count forward from Day 1185, the 1290 days to Day 2475.

On Day 2475, the 6th seal event will take place.

The armies of the world are given 45 days to prepare to make war on Jesus.

At the end of the 45 days, Jesus descends to earth on Day 2520 and destroys them.

Before we get into timelines, let's get to the heart of the matter on these beasts. read my comment to Diaste above this one as well. Any timeline that gets this incorrectly, whether mine or your view will likely be off as well. 

[douggg]

44 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Before we get into timelines, let's get to the heart of the matter on these beasts. read my comment to Diaste above this one as well. Any timeline that gets this incorrectly, whether mine or your view will likely be off as well. 

Actually, there is nothing in the timeline I gave is dependent on the matter of the beasts.

The timeline is dependent upon the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

And the 1290 days and 1335th day in Daniel 12:11-12

And the event of the sixth seal

And the gathering of the armies at Armageddon

And Jesus's return in Revelation 19 to end the 7 years.

 

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

Day 1 is the first day of the 7 years (2520 days).

Day 1185 the AOD will be setup.     2520-1335.

Count forward from Day 1185, the 1290 days to Day 2475.

On Day 2475, the 6th seal event will take place.

The armies of the world are given 45 days to prepare to make war on Jesus.

At the end of the 45 days, Jesus descends to earth on Day 2520 and destroys them.

Alright then, Here is my timeline, as you can see quite different than yours.

Day 1 is the first day of seven years (2520 days) So we agree here

75 days are added to the 1260 of the second half of the week. These are the days of mourning and consecration at the end of the great war. So kinda' similar here...

Here is where the differences begin....

The AofD is the first event when the week begins. Everything preceding it are birth pangs... As per Matthew 24:14-15

The AofD is followed by a time of abominations, and is the same as the revealing of the man of sin. This time of abominations is the great tribulation, and the time that the beast of rev. 13 rules 1260 days, or 42 months. This is the first 3.5 years.

Let's go a little deeper into this 1260 days.

 It is the "Great tribulation".

 It is also the time that the two witnesses prophesy. 1260 days. The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit kills the two witnesses, Their bodies remain on the street for 3.5 days, and they will be blamed as the cause for all the tribulation that occurred as a fulfillment of the scapegoat of Yom Kippur. This 3.5 days is a time of celebration and the time of "peace and safety" and then the rapture.

So we are at 1260+3.5 days This is the day of Christ, He will Kill the beast of rev. 13, He is no more, But the beast of the bottomless pit is still around The women of rev. 12 (one Israel, and the other the church of Laodicea) Emerge out of the wilderness, One as the nation of Israel, and the other as part of the harlot riding atop the beast from the bottomless pit. Now we enter the second half of the final week.

With the death of the beast, and the false prophet, and the dragon (See Rev. 16:13-14), the spirits which possessed these men go out and gather the armies. They are no more in bodily form. This beast from the bottomless pit has no crowns but he will for 1 hour with 10 kings.

This is the wrath of God phase of the final week. The things that happen in this half of the week are not discussed in the book of revelation as it applies to Israel, and revelation is written to the churches. You have to go to the OT for a lot of this. The righteous, and we are righteous by the Blood of the Lamb, and Jesus' righteousness imputed upon us,(faith) will not, nor ever have been allowed to witness the wrath of God. (remember Lot's wife)  

Now lets look at the seals, trumpets and vials in relation to that 1290 days. 

day 1                                                                                 day 1260   Day 1290                                               day 2520          Day 2595

Seal 1=day 1* Seal 2-5 are the great tribulation Seal six is the same as 1260+3.5. * *                 1/2 hr. silence seal 7=day 2520

*The seals are unlocking the ability of Satan to harm the saints AKA the wrath of Satan. His short while. 

**Note, we do not know exactly when the two witnesses start to witnesses, but it is within the first 30 days, therefore day 1260+3.5 can be any day between day 1263.5 and 1290.

The trumpets are God's plagues upon the earth, an act of mercy on his part to get people to repent. After the sixth trumpet, the following is written: And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, (rev. 9:20)

So Trumpets 1-6 are approx. equally timed in the 1290 days.                                                                Trumpet 7 is day 2520

The Bowls are God's wrath upon the wicked, as such 1-6 are towards the end of this first 1290 days, with the sixth coming somewhere around day 1291, and the seventh around day 2520

I could go on, but there is enough here to interact with. Days 1290-2520 are for Israel, and this is the time of Jacob's trouble. It is also a time of wrath upon the wicked, whether they are apostate church, or Muslims or Hindus or just the wicked, a time of Israel being Gathered in the Holy land, and a time of armies gathering to attack Israel and the great war. It is also a time of mercy extended to Israel to repent, and receive Jesus as their Messiah. Though Israel has to deal with the great tribulation as well, they will also drink of the cup of God's wrath. (Isa. 51:17-22, Jer. 25) This is also the tie that beast that rises out of the bottomless pit, the eighth, but one of the seven comes into power for a short season to judge the harlot. 

Kind of a long explanation, but it is really simple once you understand that the beast of rev. 17 is Azazel (Translated as scapegoat in the KJV) 

 

[douggg]

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The AofD is followed by a time of abominations, and is the same as the revealing of the man of sin. This time of abominations is the great tribulation, and the time that the beast of rev. 13 rules 1260 days, or 42 months. This is the first 3.5 years.

Why would you think that (the part I highlighted) ?

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Why would you think that (the part I highlighted) ?

Because this is what Daniel 9:27, states. Using the ESV here because of the translation of "Half the week" as opposed to midst of the week both are grammatically correct. 

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,[fn] and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

This implies the first half of the week is the time of abominations. 

This then Matches with Matthew 24, where the action A of D is at the beginning of the end.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 

this is also the 42 months the gentiles trample the city.

*Note re: timelines and discrepancies in them....

 42 months of 30 day months is 1260 days 42 true lunar months can be as few as 1240.xxx days as a true lunar month is 29.2xx days long This is why some months have 2 days set aside for the Rosh Chodesh. For example, Rosh Chodesh Av this year is one day August 2nd, But Rosh Chodesh Elul is August 31, Sep. 1st. I do not know if this discrepancy plays out in revelation, But it could be why some things are described as 42 months and others as 1260 days. The Hebrew calendar is a Luni-solar calendar, every seventh year they match each other so 1260+1290=2550 days 365x7=2555+1 or 2 leap days. So there is some flexibility in those days on my timeline. When 1260 is used this is specific, but when 42 months is used there in flexibility.

 

[dhchristian]

13 hours ago, dhchristian said:

So we are at 1260+3.5 days This is the day of Christ, He will Kill the beast of rev. 13, He is no more, But the beast of the bottomless pit is still around The women of rev. 12 (one Israel, and the other the church of Laodicea) Emerge out of the wilderness, One as the nation of Israel, and the other as part of the harlot riding atop the beast from the bottomless pit. Now we enter the second half of the final week.

I want to go a little more into detail, as this has changed slightly from what I first spoke of on this site about the Woman of rev. 12... There are 2 women, One flees into the wilderness, the other is carried on wings of Eagles.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (12:6)

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (12:14)

Rev 12:6 is direct tie in to The Olivet discourse and the fleeing of the people of Judea when armies encompass Jerusalem. The second is the church of Laodicea. During this time, the saints stand in the gap, and face the brunt of the beasts assaults (Rev 13:7-10) At the day of Christ, the faithful overcomers are raptured, and the apostate church become a part of the Harlot of rev. 17. in the second half of the week. Israel is regathered in Israel. And thus begins the time of Jacob's trouble. WE, The faithful and the chosen(saints) will not witness the wrath of God, but will be part of the final battle against the beast out of the bottomless pit. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Rev. 17:14)

[douggg]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Because this is what Daniel 9:27, states. Using the ESV here because of the translation of "Half the week" as opposed to midst of the week both are grammatically correct. 

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,[fn] and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

This implies the first half of the week is the time of abominations. 

I have never liked the ESV.    Nonetheless, the half of the week in yellow above would be the second half, not the first half.    It doesn't say first or second half in the text, but the confirming of the covenant is what starts the 7 years, not ending the sacrifice and offering.

Wouldn't that change up your timeline of events?