Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[Spock]

1 hour ago, R. Hartono said:

Further to proof the Trumpet and the Bowl are not poured at the same time/parallel :

8 Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 

3And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it turned to blood like that of the dead, and every living thing in the sea died.

When the 2nd Trumpet sounds 1/3 of the sea turned to blood

When the 2nd Bowl is poured ALL the sea turned to blood.

So the 2nd Trumpet sounded first and people face this consequence : 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. .

But when the 2nd Bowl is poured all living creatures in the sea died

3 ..... and every living thing in the sea died. 

Thanks for your input, brother. 

Yes, it does appear that the 1-4 trumpets are PARTIAL judgments while the 1-4 bowls are the COMPLETE judgments. I guess that means 1/3 of the earth is affected by trumpets; all of the earth is affected by the bowls. So then, God can and is probably using a similar judgment only enhancing its consequence. This Makes sense.

Good points......Thanks.....

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, R. Hartono said:

Further to proof the Trumpet and the Bowl are not poured at the same time/parallel :

8 Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 

3And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it turned to blood like that of the dead, and every living thing in the sea died.

When the 2nd Trumpet sounds 1/3 of the sea turned to blood

When the 2nd Bowl is poured ALL the sea turned to blood.

So the 2nd Trumpet sounded first and people face this consequence : 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. .

But when the 2nd Bowl is poured all living creatures in the sea died

3 ..... and every living thing in the sea died.

R Hartono,

This is Partly why I do not see a 1 to 1, 2 to 2 correlation. For example the 6th trumpet and 6th vial mention the River Euphrates so there could be a correlation there, But The second seal talks of war, which could lead to the first trumpet that mentions The burning up of the plants which could lead to the famine of the third seal... So What I see, (And I by no means have this figured out), is that seals are Longer term, such as lasting a year, while the trumpets and vials are more condensed. We also Know that the 1st vial cannot occur till after the mark of the beast is initiated, therefore it has to be sometime after the fifth seal, The persecution of the saints being done by the beast of rev. 13.

Then the question is when does the wrath of God Start. As a Pre-wrather, The rapture is somewhere after the 6th trumpet, and concurrent with the rapture of the two witnesses. 

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Almost always the fig tree represents national Israel (as a nation), and the olive tree spiritual Israel. In one day, May 14, 1948 Israel became a nation once again and was vulnerable (branch is yet tender). Jesus said this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. So it begs the question, how long is a generation in this time period? The most current answer to our life spans as a generation is given below; 70 - 80 years.

Yes, There are actually 7 timelines I have found that point to 2027 or thereabouts from scripture, we have four here.... Something has got to be going on then... 2028 at the latest. Like you said imminence is key, But You cannot have imminence without knowing the Immanence of God. Unfortunately many in this Laodicean see Jesus as one who is distant and to come, Not one who is omnipresent and knocking at the door... 

[R. Hartono]

38 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

R Hartono,

This is Partly why I do not see a 1 to 1, 2 to 2 correlation. For example the 6th trumpet and 6th vial mention the River Euphrates so there could be a correlation

At the time of the 6th trumpet the Euphrate river is not dried yet because the time for Armageddon battle has not yet due.

[Spock]

48 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

R Hartono,

This is Partly why I do not see a 1 to 1, 2 to 2 correlation. For example the 6th trumpet and 6th vial mention the River Euphrates so there could be a correlation there, But The second seal talks of war, which could lead to the first trumpet that mentions The burning up of the plants which could lead to the famine of the third seal... So What I see, (And I by no means have this figured out), is that seals are Longer term, such as lasting a year, while the trumpets and vials are more condensed. We also Know that the 1st vial cannot occur till after the mark of the beast is initiated, therefore it has to be sometime after the fifth seal, The persecution of the saints being done by the beast of rev. 13.

Then the question is when does the wrath of God Start. As a Pre-wrather, The rapture is somewhere after the 6th trumpet, and concurrent with the rapture of the two witnesses. 

The standard pre wrath position as set forth by Rosenthal and Van Kampen is that the wrath begins at the 6th SEAL.....not trumpet, like what you said here. 

[dhchristian]

19 minutes ago, Spock said:

The standard pre wrath position as set forth by Rosenthal and Van Kampen is that the wrath begins at the 6th SEAL.....not trumpet, like what you said here. 

I am Not the standard pre-wrather, and neither have I read any book by Rosenthal and Van Kampen. Like I said earlier, There are seven visions recorded in the Book of Revelation. They all lead to the same point, The Day of The LORD, but take different paths to get there. There is an order that makes sense but you have to be willing to look at revelation from an empty slate, No preconceptions, such as this post was meant to do. When I have more time I will give more detailed list of events.

[dhchristian]

32 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

At the time of the 6th trumpet the Euphrate river is not dried yet because the time for Armageddon battle has not yet due.

Explore that a little further... Look up all the passages that pertain to the great end time war, such as when the frogs leave the beast and the false prophet to gather the armies, Rvev 14, and the winepress of the wrath of God... Then you will start to see a pattern emerge.

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

SO What Your saying is that during the final week, for 1335 days many shall be purified and made white?

No sir, this is a sort of "Bridge" between Daniels time on earth AND these End Times or the 70th week Jesus is about to speak about. Verse 35 in Daniel 11 is the same sort of "Bridge" from Daniel unto the End Times, allow me to demonstrate my point, it's easier to grasp the point that way.

Dan. 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 

Dan. 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Both of these verses seem to give Daniel a flash forward from his time, all the way unto the END TIME which is an APPOINTED TIME. And both seem to show the 2000 some odd year Church Age where MANY PEOPLE are made White {Blood of Jesus}, even to then END OF TIME [via the Church Age no doubt]. So the Church Age creates MANY CONVERTS {who are made White/Purified in Christs blood},  then we get the END TIME 70TH WEEK, wherein the 1335 {Two-witnesses}, 1290 {AoD}, and the 1260 {Anti-Christ/Beast Released}.

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Who are these people, the ones who were giving out presents and celebrating the death of the 2 witnesses? Or the ones on the earth that repentance was no more found in them? Or all the masses of People that will be gathered for the Battle of Armageddon? NO my friend, The final week will be a time endurance for the saints, those who have already been made white and purified by the blood of the Lamb. Seems to me like all you care about is your theory, rather than hearing the TRUTH spoken by a messenger from God. I invited you to test the Spirit in me Yet You as a preacher of 30 years refuse to do what the Bible instructs you to do, because you are worried the Truth will put your theory to shame. 

Seems you misinterpreted my position, SEE ABOVE !!

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I reiterate and repeat what I wrote above...

Touche......you need to understand what my position is in order to understand my position and test it.

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Well, Has the church today done its part? NO. Today's Laodicean churches teach that repentance is a Work. So You have a generation of the church that has never repented of anything, and by never repenting they have never been born again, Born of the Spirit. Yes they Go to church, and believe, But even the demons in hell believe and tremble. Time is running out, and People just ignore what this messenger has to say, Studying revelation is a game to them, or a hobby, but there is no power behind their work as they spiral from one thing to another never arriving at TRUTH. It is especially frustrating to watch preachers who are unable and inept to HEAR what the Spirit says to the churches, Thus exposing the fact that they are nothing more than hirelings.

I see you criticizing the Church over and over brother, do you go to Church ? It kind of reminds me of the 4 Congressmen {women} who Trump just criticized for hating America, I don't get it brother to be honest. Watch out for the Wicked One, he leads us down these type of cul de sacs if we allow him to, and thus separates us from the body of Christ. We are "one in Christ" brother, remember, Satan {Rev. 12} accuses the brothers NIGHT & DAY !! He doesn't need any help. When we think we are the only one that hears God, its shaky ground to be on. 

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Do You even Know what the daily sacrifice is? It is not a blood sacrifice, But a meat offering a sweet savour and The lighting of the candles with Oil Incense, the Shewbread (2 Chron 13:11). When the Babylonians Looted the temple in 599BC, they removed the Golden Menorah, and the Utensils and the Table of shewbread, The daily sacrifice could no longer be committed. The Blood sacrifices had ended Before that time, when the Ark of the Covenant was taken into hiding, and is yet to be found, As there was no mercy seat upon which to sprinkle the Blood. So when the Lord said to Daniel from the time that the daily was taken away, he understood perfectly what he meant, for he was part of that exile, he went with those instruments of worship that were looted. (2 Kings 24:13ff) 

I know what it is, but what does the average joe think it is talking about ? An animal Sacrifice, that is the point, it's a TRIBUTE, Daniel spoke about it in Dan. 9:21, it can be a Prayer or Tribute unto God from anywhere, it can be an Actual Sacrifice/Offering but it doesn't have to be, THAT IS MY POINT !!

Dan. 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. {Oblation = a Tribute to God, it's done TWICE DAILY, thus the 2300 is really only 1150 days.}

So my point remains intact, Jesus is the Sacrifice {The Jews pay Tribute to Jesus as their Messiah in the Temple of God} that is taken away. You don't think God is pointing to some END TIME, Tribute/Sacrifice via ANYTHING but Jesus do you ? WHY  WOULD HE ?

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

There is a sickness in the end time church, and all the apostles saw this would happen. From the mid 1900's to today, the church has increasingly become humanistic, and operates on the Will of man, and not on the will of God. This is a general condition of all the churches of Christendom. The NAR has now come in and the concern is mostly on earthly kingdoms rather than the Kingdom of God, as Christianity has become just another political block to ally with... The Woman riding the beast. This is the diagnoses of Jesus himself in the letter to the Laodicean church that is living in partial belief, (Lukewarmness). THE ONLY SOLUTION is the solution Jesus outlines in this letter to the Laodiceans, Just like each church age had their own unique solution to overcome their malady. I Know this is true, because I have lived this. If you are Honest with yourself, and have not been blinded by self deception, the worst sort of deception, then You too will see this. But this is the big Problem in getting this message out. No one sees, as they have become spiritually blind. The church today thinks they are rich and in need of nothing, But they have Locked Jesus out, the LIVING word of God. They worship a Jesus who "is not now", As opposed to the one who was, and IS and is to come. If you get a chance look up a modern vision called "escape from Christendom". Because this is what is being discussed here. Christendom is not Christianity. Christian city is not the same as the City of God. Time is very short for you to repent and come to the cross, and escape Christendom....

Quench Not the Spirit!  

More people have been brought to Christ since 1900 then at anytime in the History of the world brother. Everyone but a small group doesn't get it, that is what I see emitting from you my brother, and I don't agree with that, the Church is well, and strong today, the World is what is going downhill fast. We have ages in general, but there are ALL 7 TYPES of Churches in every Age. 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Here's another thing to consider. You and I can count down the days from the start of the tribulation to midpoint, then from midpoint to Jesus' second coming to the day, correct? Hypothetically as an example; if we entered the tribulation, could we do the same? Wouldn't most or all of the tribulation Saints during the tribulation be able to do the same? 

Revelation 6:10 (KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11.  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

"They" in Rev. 6: 10 are the martyrs that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

Question? If these Saints were martyred inside of the tribulation, shouldn't they know where they are at in time and how much longer before they are avenged?  Could it be they were martyred post Rapture, pre tribulation?

Isaiah 28:15 (KJV) Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Since they have been Martyred, I assume they don't live on earth per se anymore, but in the Grave/where ever that resting place is and they will not understand the timeframe from day to day number 1, and secondly, I think that is more of a Metaphorical statement, their hearts desire/cry which God sees because he sees all is, WE WANT THESE WICKED THUGS TO BE JUDGED !! No doubt, I want this evil world judged now, in my heart. I don't think Jesus actually gives them a White Robe either, it's symbolism, it's just Jesus telling us those who lay down their lives during the Tribulation will also be made White, but they are judged in Rev. 20:4. God's prose is way beyond our understanding. But one can kinda get it, if we look to it in a logical manner. It all has to fit together. God saying someone said, doesn't always mean they SAID SOMETHING, it can mean their hearts SAID IT...Or God knows their hearts every utterance and he says this is their hearts cry, but He verbalizes it as a conversation with his heart, because in a way it is, even when we pray or cry out to God, its us and God, continually via us walking in Christ. 

[dhchristian]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No sir, this is a sort of "Bridge" between Daniels time on earth AND these End Times or the 70th week Jesus is about to speak about. Verse 35 in Daniel 11 is the same sort of "Bridge" from Daniel unto the End Times, allow me to demonstrate my point, it's easier to grasp the point that way.

No Need to construct a Bridge, this is Just mere word play on your part to avoid the simple grammatical truth...

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Notice the "conjunction junction what your function?" Why is it there, to Join to things together, meaning many will be purified, and made white, while these days are coming to pass... Simple Grammar Nullifies the need for Bridges to be built...

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Touche......you need to understand what my position is in order to understand my position and test it.

It is your obligation as a preacher to test the Spirit in me, and If that Spirit is from God, to hear what that Spirit says to the churches...Quench not the Spirit... But it seems to me like you do not want to do this because What I am saying is a threat to your Knowledge base and eschatology... I ask You "can the teacher be taught?"

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I see you criticizing the Church over and over brother, do you go to Church ? It kind of reminds me of the 4 Congressmen {women} who Trump just criticized for hating America, I don't get it brother to be honest. Watch out for the Wicked One, he leads us down these type of cul de sacs if we allow him to, and thus separates us from the body of Christ. We are "one in Christ" brother, remember, Satan {Rev. 12} accuses the brothers NIGHT & DAY !! He doesn't need any help. When we think we are the only one that hears God, its shaky ground to be on. 

 

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

More people have been brought to Christ since 1900 then at anytime in the History of the world brother. Everyone but a small group doesn't get it, that is what I see emitting from you my brother, and I don't agree with that, the Church is well, and strong today, the World is what is going downhill fast. We have ages in general, but there are ALL 7 TYPES of Churches in every Age.

Forst of all, I acknowledge the existence of the TRUE church of Christ, The Body of Christ. They are not a denomination nor a building, But agroup of God fearing Born again believers. They are located within many of the corporate churches of Today, Working for the Pushing forward of the Kingdom of God, and the Gospel. 

That beingsaid, In the above two comments, I see you have little to no discernment on what the church has become, That You may in fact be Blind to what is going on. Let me give you a little lesson in church ages. In the 1800's, and early 1900's, Fundamentalism was born as a response to the secularization of the World and the dead protestant churches of the previous Age. This was the Philadelphian church and the Lord had little or no rebuke of this church. Only that they should hold on to what they have. But as time went by, The Word of God "died in the hands of its friends", The once Vibrant, Spirit filled movement got so concerned with doctrinal soundness, that they closed the door to any Holy Ghost revelations. The scribe began to dictate Doctrine, Rather than The Holy Ghost teaching Doctrine. They Locked Jesus Out of the church, and fell into what Tozer called the "Cult of Textualism". Read the link below to understand this. It is a quick read.

 http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19117&forum=36 

What happened next is that as a response to this Void of the Holy Ghost the Laodicean age was Born, the Charismatic outpouring. The Charismatics saw the Lack of the Spirit rightly, But they did not open the door to Jesus, instead they reacted to the rigid doctrinalism of the Fundamentalist and opened the door to all sorts of spirits, the Shekinah and the Kundalini spirits. Thus they became Harlots, which is what the Laodicean church is known by. What was born of the charismatic movement was Word faith, NAR, Emergent church Movement, Crazy charismatics, and a plethora of spirits entered the churches. They are popular, Very Popular, So much so that their numbers are swelling as you pointed out, But they are popular because they no longer preach a message of repentance and new birth, but rather a feel good gospel that builds the ego up. (AKA Humanisms).  I Could make a very Long list of all the abominations the church is committing today, From LGBT Preachers (Might as well put a wolf in the office of shepherd), To Preachers who laugh for 40 Minutes in front of the congregation and call this a Move of the Holy Ghost. But the Worst of it is that they no longer convict the people of Sin, instead they preach feel good sermons That resemble Broadway plays (Pun Intended) and Rock Concerts to Amp the congregation up to think the Holy Ghost is working where He is not. Here is the Link to "escape from Christendom" This is quite long so read at your leisure, But it reads somewhat like Pilgrim's Progress, Only More for the Modern church, Bear in mind this was written before a lot of this stuff has come to be, and yes, the author is a Pentecostal...

http://www.trumpetcall.org.nz/Trumpet_Call_Christian_Ministries/Articles_files/Escape-from-Christendom.pdf

 

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I know what it is, but what does the average joe think it is talking about ? An animal Sacrifice, that is the point, it's a TRIBUTE, Daniel spoke about it in Dan. 9:21, it can be a Prayer or Tribute unto God from anywhere, it can be an Actual Sacrifice/Offering but it doesn't have to be, THAT IS MY POINT !!

Dan. 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. {Oblation = a Tribute to God, it's done TWICE DAILY, thus the 2300 is really only 1150 days.}

So my point remains intact, Jesus is the Sacrifice {The Jews pay Tribute to Jesus as their Messiah in the Temple of God} that is taken away. You don't think God is pointing to some END TIME, Tribute/Sacrifice via ANYTHING but Jesus do you ? WHY  WOULD HE ?

More Word play on your part, Let me guess, you have somewhere in your timelines that you had to fit 1150days into? This However is contrary to the actual fulfillment of 2300 days that Antiochus Epiphanes polluted the temple and to his death EXACTLY 2300 days later on Kislev 24 By which the Jewish people celebrate the feast of Hanukkah. The dates of this fulfillment are precise, Sept. 6, 171BC- Dec. 25th 165Bc. Also, the Wording Used in this text is MORNINGS AND EVENINGS, meaning a day is a full unit of 2 daily sacrifices, So No luck there... You of course are free to do your little word games and making scripture say whatever you want, But this does notmean I buy it, Nor should anyone else.

Conclusion:

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

We have ages in general, but there are ALL 7 TYPES of Churches in every Age.

Yes We still have Fundamentalists around, and Catholics around, But they are not the Spirit of the age. But to assume you are member of this church is to make the mistake of picking the best seat at the banquet only to be told that that seat is saved for another. I would rather the Take the Least seat and Let the Master tell me to sit in a better seat. But for you to say as you have said in these comments, Thinking you are in need of nothing, tells me You are in fact a Laodicean, Living in denial. Yes You are Preacher, and I can tell by how you approach my comments here to you that you are schooled in handling controversy, But You need to Do Your Job and test the Spirit in me, and then Hear what the Spirit says to YOUR church. Not to do so, could be detrimental, for The shepherd is held to a higher standard, and By your caution I know you know this. But the shepherd can ignore what the Spirit says to the churches to His and their detriment, and then be known as a Hireling. As an elder I respect you, show the same courtesy to me who is sent as a messenger. 

Jesus is The LORD (1 Cor 12:3)