Would you believe this Christian testimony?

[ReneeIW]

18 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

It took a bit of work, but using bing I tracked him and his fellowship down based on the info in the various posts. 

I looked through the fellowship's site and it seems legit to me.  It's a Christian men's group with chapters all around the US.  I read through some of the testimonies and they sound like other testimonies I've heard over the years.   With regard to the testimony in the OP, it took me a long time to track it down buried in one paragraph of a 12 page PDF file (which is the chapter from the book mentioned in another post).   It sounds more like this is being shared as part of his personal testimony in person rather than front page bragging rights.   If not for the OP and the reference to the book it appears in, I probably couldn't have found it.   In a short 2 minute testimony talking about what the fellowship did for him, he doesn't mention it.  In his 30 minute testimony (which I admittedly skipped through at about 30 to 60 second intervals), I couldn't find any reference to it.  

If he spent all his time talking about this and he was a one trick pony speaker and this was plastered in prominent places on the site, I'd question things.  Given that most of his focus (at least that I could see online) is on the men around him and the testimony of God's change in his life and family, I think it sounds credible.  Given a few of the other testimonies I looked at and the various resources on the main fellowship site, this seems on the up and up to me.  This seems to be a group through which many men are coming to Christ and seeing tangible changes in their lives.  It also seems to be a group catching men falling through the cracks who don't want to go into a church.

If they had a chapter near where I live, I'd check them out.

So you believe his testimony? That the resurrected  Christ appeared at his home and walked from room to room “raising his hands in the air” and blessing each room ? By the way, the house is a multi million dollar mansion. So that took some time. There is nothing in Scripture that resembles this and  I have never heard of a testimony like this before. He would be the only person this happened to in history unless others have not come forward. His wife then said she had a vision months later. If true, this is a very blessed couple.

Yearly revenue  for the fellowship is in the millions.

[GandalfTheWise]

36 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

So you believe his testimony? That the resurrected  Christ appeared at his home and walked from room to room “raising his hands in the air” and blessing each room ? By the way, the house is a multi million dollar mansion. So that took some time. There is nothing in Scripture that resembles this and  I have never heard of a testimony like this before. He would be the only person this happened to in history unless others have not come forward. His wife then said she had a vision months later. If true, this is a very blessed couple.

Yearly revenue  for the fellowship is in the millions.

I've heard testimonies where visions or appearances of Christ were part of someone's conversion.  These types of testimonies are happening among muslims in various parts of the world.  The ones I've heard from people in the US are usually associated with someone hitting rock bottom AND unbeknownst to them at the time some people were specifically praying God would do something in their life to turn them around.  With regard to Jesus going around blessing a house?  It's a new one on me and I raised my eyebrows a bit when I first read it.  However, when I hear such things I evaluate it on the basis of what the fruit of it is and how it seems to be treated in the context of an entire testimony and ministry.  Given how hard it was to find any details and that this was being placed as a small part of an overall testimony, I find that more credible than if that was the only thing someone was talking about and was trying to sell books and speaking engagements based on it.  

Non-profit organizations in the US are required to file a 990 form each year with the IRS.  With a bit of work I found the fellowship's 990 form for 2017 which indicated a total income of a bit less than $1.5 million a few years ago.  With about 60 chapters and about 25,000 weekly members, this works out to about $60/person annually, $25K/chapter annually (or about $500/chapter weekly), and about 400 members/chapter.   Basically, they are operating at a rate of about a buck or two per person per week.   The person whose testimony is under discussion does not appear to be a board member or formal leader in the main organization (though he was about a decade ago) and appears to now be one of about 60 unpaid volunteer chapter leaders.  Extrapolating the 990 forms backwards, that group was running at perhaps $300K annually or so when he was involved at a national level.

If this fellowship had his name plastered all over it and he was pocketing significant amounts of money as a speaker and author telling the same story over and over, I'd have major doubts.  The bottom line for me is that if all mention of this part of his testimony was dropped, from what I can tell, little else would probably change.   From the online information I could find, I don't see a basis for implying that this one person talking about a vision of Jesus is scamming people out of millions of dollars.

 

 

[ReneeIW]

59 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

I've heard testimonies where visions or appearances of Christ were part of someone's conversion.  These types of testimonies are happening among muslims in various parts of the world.  The ones I've heard from people in the US are usually associated with someone hitting rock bottom AND unbeknownst to them at the time some people were specifically praying God would do something in their life to turn them around.  With regard to Jesus going around blessing a house?  It's a new one on me and I raised my eyebrows a bit when I first read it.  However, when I hear such things I evaluate it on the basis of what the fruit of it is and how it seems to be treated in the context of an entire testimony and ministry.  Given how hard it was to find any details and that this was being placed as a small part of an overall testimony, I find that more credible than if that was the only thing someone was talking about and was trying to sell books and speaking engagements based on it.  

Non-profit organizations in the US are required to file a 990 form each year with the IRS.  With a bit of work I found the fellowship's 990 form for 2017 which indicated a total income of a bit less than $1.5 million a few years ago.  With about 60 chapters and about 25,000 weekly members, this works out to about $60/person annually, $25K/chapter annually (or about $500/chapter weekly), and about 400 members/chapter.   Basically, they are operating at a rate of about a buck or two per person per week.   The person whose testimony is under discussion does not appear to be a board member or formal leader in the main organization (though he was about a decade ago) and appears to now be one of about 60 unpaid volunteer chapter leaders.  Extrapolating the 990 forms backwards, that group was running at perhaps $300K annually or so when he was involved at a national level.

If this fellowship had his name plastered all over it and he was pocketing significant amounts of money as a speaker and author telling the same story over and over, I'd have major doubts.  The bottom line for me is that if all mention of this part of his testimony was dropped, from what I can tell, little else would probably change.   From the online information I could find, I don't see a basis for implying that this one person talking about a vision of Jesus is scamming people out of millions of dollars.

 

 

Where did I say or imply he was scamming anyone out of millions of dollars. If you go back and read my original post I don't mention money. I mention he uses the story to recruit men to the fellowship. Just because you could not find that information online doesn't mean its not true. His "encounter with Christ" is given an entire chapter in Eric Metaxas's book.Metaxas is the coFounder of the group.

My question was more to do about the actual encounter with Christ. I was looking for opinions as to whether the encounter sounded biblical. To me it does not. But I was also quick to point out that his life changed radically after. I will say it's easier to leave your business after you have made millions of dollars. His life changed in the sense that he left his lawfirm and started a firm to glorify God. That's good but how many men leave ther lives to become priests and then end up molesting kids? I'm not comparing this individual to a child molestor, I'm just acknowledging that you can change certain areas of your life but still be dishonest in other areas.

I don't know if Christ came to his estate and went from room to room. If He did, this man is clearly blessed and changed forever. I was simply asking people who are familiar with Scripture if his testimony sounded biblically sound. I wonder if we should now believe Joseph Smith who said he saw Christ in New York.

 

Last, I'm not sure why you are so interested in the actual fellowship when my question was about this man's spiritual experience, but the revenue was $2.5 million and they have 55 chapters wth 800 members. Not 25,000 members. And the members are not required to donate. they get there money from other Christian organizations and wealthy donors and that money is used to pay the leaders and board members. Many people start non profits and then pay themselves a large salary.

in any case, I believe this man is a good man but his testimony gave me pause.

 

Edited August 2, 2019 by ReneeIW

[frienduff thaylorde]

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 6:13 PM, ReneeIW said:

I agree. I also was skeptical because he was not afraid. I would think he would have been very scared.  

I guess the reasoning of blessing the rooms was because his wife had been asking him to leave the house. He refused and she had divorce papers delivered to the house  and his three year old son answered the door and then handed him the papers. He said he was devastated by that and that his wife’s ugliness and anger was out of control. Maybe he thought demonic spirits were in the house. I don’t know. I just hate to think that people are out there lying this way. His story doesn’t make sense at all.

I know this same group praised Benny Hinn. 

Well that says a lot .     Cause I know ol benny is false .    

[frienduff thaylorde]

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 6:01 PM, ReneeIW said:

He is Catholic but his fellowship is non denominational. His “miracle” of Christ walking in his house was in a book called Miracles by Eric Metaxas.

He is what ...........  if JESUS appeared to that man , HOW come HE did not WARN this man of the danger he is in . 

Ps ,  don't let BB see this ,   due to his great love of the Vatican system ........ .......

[GandalfTheWise]

@ReneeIW

My apologies for reading too much into a few statements.    The comments about the fellowship distracted me from the vision itself and I incorrectly thought part of the issue was potentially using the vision as a fundraising tool or scam.  I go into fact checking mode before I respond to such things.  There's obviously some discrepancy between the information you have available to you and the information I could find.

I think there is a big difference between sharing a testimony of something miraculous God does as part of someone's conversion or Christian life from someone like a Joseph Smith who claims a completely new revelation with new doctrine and a rejection of core Christian beliefs to create a following.  

I just take this one like I do other testimonies that seem out there in some ways.  I usually give the benefit of the doubt, but I don't base any tangible actions myself on it and just remain non-committal unless I see people starting to take tangible actions on it to their detriment.

[frienduff thaylorde]

5 hours ago, ReneeIW said:

So you believe his testimony? That the resurrected  Christ appeared at his home and walked from room to room “raising his hands in the air” and blessing each room ? By the way, the house is a multi million dollar mansion. So that took some time. There is nothing in Scripture that resembles this and  I have never heard of a testimony like this before. He would be the only person this happened to in history unless others have not come forward. His wife then said she had a vision months later. If true, this is a very blessed couple.

Yearly revenue  for the fellowship is in the millions.

The same JESUS who told folks not to heap and steap up , came in and  blessed that man and yet gave him no warnings .     Yep ,  it was not real at all . 

[ReneeIW]

1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Ps ,  don't let BB see this ,   due to his great love of the Vatican system ........ .......

I’m not sure who would love the Vatican system. I was done giving them the benefit of the doubt when the Grand Jury report was released last year outlining  the rape of thousands of kids by hundreds of priests. If people still support them after that then I don’t know what it will take for people to demand reform.

The first tweet the Vatican put out after the Grand Jury report(or it could have been after the Attorney General report in Illinois) was about the “holy Eucharist” because that is what they are using to brain wash people into supporting them. If you believe the Catholic Church is the only Church that can transform wafers into the Lord, then you are not going anywhere no matter what they do. 

And how  come no one has asked why the Eucharist has not kept the priests from raping children (and impregnating nuns) if it is so powerful and vital to keeping people from Hell?

 

[ReneeIW]

1 hour ago, GandalfTheWise said:

My apologies for reading too much into a few statements.....I go into fact checking mode before I respond to such things.

No worries. And fact checking is good. And no one deserves to be accused of making up a story but we should discuss such claims.

 

 As far as the comparison to Joseph Smith, I think ANY claim that someone has encountered Christ should be looked at closely whether they divert from the Word  of God or not. That claim is extremely  powerful and the reason Christianity exists today. If the disciples had not said they saw Christ, none of us would be here talking today.

[Prycejosh1987]

On 7/29/2019 at 11:13 PM, ReneeIW said:

What would you think of a Christian who goes around the country giving a testimony that Christ visited him in his home? 

 

He said that he was devastated that his wife had filed for divorce so he sought the advice and counsel from a Christian leader. The Christian leader told him to go home and meditate on Jeremiah 24. The leader then asked him if he had ever invited Christ into his home. He answered no and was told to invite Christ into his house that night. 

 

The next morning he said he opened the door and Christ was there appearing as a bright white figure and He  came into his home and walked from room to room blessing every room. After Christ finished blessing the last room, the man thought Christ had left so he sat down at his desk trying to process what had just happened. Then Christ appeared again and the man fell down to the floor and wept while grasping Christ’s ankles.

 

Thoughts about whether this man sounds sincere? He uses this story to recruit men to his Christian Fellowship.

It is possible for this to happen, as Jesus appeared to Paul on conversion and to stephen when he was stoned. However i do not believe something like that would happen nowadays as we have his word. I havent met Jesus, but i have seen the aura of angels and seen demons.