David1701 Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 51 minutes ago, enoob57 said: then foreknowledge cannot refer to God's will toward determined destiny... That's a non-sequitur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,189 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 20, 2020 13 hours ago, David1701 said: That's a non-sequitur. No nor at all to say God used foreknowledge to determine Outcome is to place God in subservient role within time... however to say God Protects the free will choosing of His created image through foreknowledge is to place the created bound to temporal time not God.... remembering there is nothing of creation necessary to the perfect of God and God states His purpose is for His Good Pleasure thus for Ezekiel the profit to proclaim the death of man not of His (God’s) doing by the displeasure God holds for it is to Point the mind to the moral free choice of the creature... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.54 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted July 20, 2020 As I have opined before--I think there are things regarding the nexus of foreknowledge, predestination, Grace and free will that we can't fully fathom. No question God knew, no question were were predestinated and no question we had something to do with the choosing--we also know it takes the Father to 'draw' us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Alive said: As I have opined before--I think there are things regarding the nexus of foreknowledge, predestination, Grace and free will that we can't fully fathom. No question God knew, no question were were predestinated and no question we had something to do with the choosing--we also know it takes the Father to 'draw' us. We had NOTHING to do with the choosing, since it was done before the foundation of the world and since "foreknowledge", in the Bible, when applied to people, means "chose beforehand", not "knew what we would do in advance". It is US whom God foreknew, not merely facts about us - they are not in view. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 Predestination is like this: God Predestined those to be saved because He knows who will accept His invitation of salvation. Because God does not live in time, “But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” (2 Peter 3:8) He knows who will comfess Jesus as Lord and believe in Him. Predestination is not a cap on how many “elect” can get saved like a misinterpretation of 144,000 in Revelation. It simply is God knows already who is saved, because He can see accross all time. But that predestined number is billions across time, anyone can be saved through faith in Jesus. It is simply God can look as far as the last convert before His Return. God desires all be saved, “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) The Lord does not limit how many may believe and be saved in Him, but rather says go preach to all peoples: “who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4). “Consider also that our Lord's patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him.” (2 Peter 3:15) The Lord desires we preach to all people, so that antone may believe and be saved: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28:19) “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Fidei Defensor said: Predestination is like this: God Predestined those to be saved because He knows who will accept His invitation of salvation. Even most Arminians have departed from this teaching, because it leaks like a colander. It's called the "tunnel of time" view. You should be able to find several refutations, if you look it up on the Web. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, David1701 said: Even most Arminians have departed from this teaching, because it leaks like a colander. It's called the "tunnel of time" view. You should be able to find several refutations, if you look it up on the Web. I Agree to disagree. You can find refutation to anything the web. I will stick with The Scriptures which are Hid breathed (2 Timothy 3:16) and the Nicene & Apostle’s Creeds. I believe God knows how many are going to be saved because He is outside time (2 Peter 3:8) and yet He desires all to be saved. Edited July 20, 2020 by Fidei Defensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Fidei Defensor said: Agree to disagree. You can find refutation to anything the web. I will stick with The Scriptures which are Hid breathed (2 Timothy 3:16) and the Nicene & Apostle’s Creeds. I believe God knows how many are going to be saved because He is outside time (2 Peter 3:8) and yet He desires all to be saved. You're not going to check? Alright then, I'll just let you know that I've debated about this numerous times before, with Arminians, and almost all of them now reject that view, preferring some version of "corporate election", which is also deeply flawed, but not as much as the "tunnel of time". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley L Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 304 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 186 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) On 8/6/2019 at 6:04 AM, ilovejcsog said: Seems to be a really tough question. So many different opinions. I am always concerned about those left out without a choice to be Gods. I believe in predestination together with free will for us to choose. How that is possible? I have no idea. Neither do I have an idea how God can speak the universe together. Or how Jesus came back to life. Or how God can be eternal. But I believe. But I know I have a choice and I know God is sovereign. Edited July 20, 2020 by Wesley L 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovejcsog Posted July 21, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 66 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/21/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 See what I mean? GOODNESS!::) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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