Why Did Jesus Die For Us

[EricH]

EricH

Rom. 7 is not an admission that Paul as a believer is hopelessly bound to sin. He is using his own life experience to describe the state of condemnation and the working of the law of sin and death in humankind outside of walking in the Spirit.

He concludes that the condemnation; the working out of the law of sin and death which we all have experienced,  is overridden by another law made manifest in the lives of believers through walking in the Spirit. That state of condemnation described by Paul in Rom. 7 is no longer experienced as long as they walk in the Spirit. Rom. 8:1-4

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Actually I never said as believer we are hoplessly bound to sin. That is a straw man that does not represent my position in any way. It is important to note that all of the verbs in Romans 7 are in the present tense. So in Paul's eyes the struggle he is undergoing is current, not past.

What Paul is describing is the existance of 2 natures within him. Before salvation he was a slave to the sin nature. There was no redeemed nature to battle against it. Once salvation took place, he is no longer a slave to that nature, even though it still exists. We are now free from the law of sin, but it still exerts influence in our lives and causes us to do things we do not want to do. We are in a "Now" and "not yet" time in terms of the kingdom. We have the new nature, but the old nature has not been completely removed or neutralized.

Notice in 8:3 it does not say we have been set free from sin, but from the law of sin. Sin still exists in our lives, but we are no longer subject to its rule, We are now subject to the law of the Spirit. He is to control our lives.

As long as we live on this earth, these two natures will exist simultanously. We are now free to choose which we will obey (we are no longer slaves to sin).

[EricH]

A few points:

Works faith and salvation are all connected.

Everything about your salvation had everything to do with works.

Faith is a work.

Repentance is a work.

Prayer is a work.

Baptism is a work of obedience.

In fact all of the above are acts of obedience, which are works.

Those of you using scriptures where Paul is referring to law or works in a negative sense are ignorant that those scriptures are relating to:

Obsolete OT laws no longer necessary such as circumcision or,

Works (righteous moral deeds) performed by the unbeliever therefore they are profitless as far as salvation goes, or

Works not ordained by God such as traditions that oppose the truth as Christ taught it.

The words law and works are determined by their context whether they are speaking of worthless works or works necessary for salvation.

Is not believing, repenting, praying necessary for salvation?

Are not these things what a person does, ie works?

Is not salvation hereby proven to be determined by our works?

If we didn't do what Jesus says we should, is it not so that we would not have been initially saved?

After being saved is it not so that we are to continue in his Word and thereby not be  hearers only but doers of the work of applying what we hear?

And is it not so that if we do not continue in his word by being doers and not just hearers we are deceiving ourselves concerning our salvation?

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This is probably not real helpful as it is a generalization. Specific examples are more meaningful and can be adressed

[EricH]

Works faith and salvation are all connected.

Everything about your salvation had everything to do with works.

Faith is a work.

Repentance is a work.

Prayer is a work.

Baptism is a work of obedience.

In fact all of the above are acts of obedience, which are works.

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So you hold all of the above are prerequisites of salvation. On must have faith, pray, be baptized to be saved? In addition I would ask you what it is about these works that save. The bible teaches that man is incapable on his own of pleasing God, that even men's righteousness is like filthy rags before God. What is it about the above "works" that would make them different. If man is inherently evil and incapable of pleasing God, how could the above acts please God if performed by a totally depraved man?

[yomotalking]

I haven't read this whole thread....too long.....but, listen.

The answer to the topic question is:

John 3:16-17

"Fro God so loved the World,

That he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes on (in) Him, shall

not perish, but have Eternal Life.

Jesus died to take away our sins, to rid us of hem....FOREVER.....!!!!!

HALLEUJAH!!!!!!

Yomo

[Pax]

Actually there is a lot of debate regarding to what the "this" refers to in Ephesians 2:8. The disagreement centers on whether it points to "faith" or to the salvation process as a whole. No one holds that it points to grace due to grammar and structure. The options are either "faith" or the salvation process as a whole.

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Eric,

You bring up an interesting concern with the above statement. You are saying that people are "debating" over a verse in the Bible. What's the right answer? And who is the authority to say that this is the right answer?

[jc49]

Wow,

[jc49]

I haven't read this whole thread....too long.....but, listen.

The answer to the topic question is:

John 3:16-17

"Fro God so loved the World,

That he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes on (in) Him, shall

not perish, but have Eternal Life.

Jesus died to take away our sins, to rid us of hem....FOREVER.....!!!!!

HALLEUJAH!!!!!!

               

Yomo

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[jc49]

EricH

Rom. 7 is not an admission that Paul as a believer is hopelessly bound to sin. He is using his own life experience to describe the state of condemnation and the working of the law of sin and death in humankind outside of walking in the Spirit.

He concludes that the condemnation; the working out of the law of sin and death which we all have experienced,

[jc49]

Works faith and salvation are all connected.

Everything about your salvation had everything to do with works.

Faith is a work.

Repentance is a work.

Prayer is a work.

Baptism is a work of obedience.

In fact all of the above are acts of obedience, which are works.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you hold all of the above are prerequisites of salvation. On must have faith, pray, be baptized to be saved? In addition I would ask you what it is about these works that save. The bible teaches that man is incapable on his own of pleasing God, that even men's righteousness is like filthy rags before God. What is it about the above "works" that would make them different. If man is inherently evil and incapable of pleasing God, how could the above acts please God if performed by a totally depraved man?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[jc49]

Why such opposition to the effectual works of grace?