Prove/Disprove my theory

[AgnosticFront84]

Here is a theory set up like a logic proof in regards to free will and God's omniscience. Please feel free to criticize or explain how it would be false. This is all in terms of christianity and the bible.

Given:

God is omnipotent

God is omniscient

We have free-will

Agree? OK, good. Here goes:

God is omniscient (all-knowing), meaning there is absolutely nothing he does not know past, present, and future. As humans on this earth, we have the ability to make the choices we want that will either lead us into heaven or hell. To reject Jesus Christ as God's son and our Lord and Savior will result in a trip to hell. When God wants to create a new soul (let's call him Bob), he knows what choices Bob will make before he makes them. Realize Bob is still making the choices because of his free-will and God is just watching knowing what he'll decide. God always knew what Bob will decide all the way until he dies and knows wether he'll end up in heaven or hell. Let's say Bob is a christian and like your average christian goes through many phases of his relationship to his faith such as being saved, backsliding, re-dedicating his life to christ, backsliding, losing faith in christianity, re-dedicating his life (you know what I'm talkin about ). Unfortunately, when Bob dies he made the wrong choice and ends up in hell. Bob, near the end of his life permanently rejected God and Jesus Christ as his personal savior. Now, God KNEW that Bob would end up in hell for eternity before he even created him. To say that God didn't know would be taking knowledge from God making his omniscient status a falsehood. So, God MUST have known what choices Bob would make and where he would end up. To me, this makes God an evil God. Why would he have created a soul knowing it would inevitably be in an eternal fiery furnace. So full of love to create a being he KNEW would end up in the pyrotechnic playground. Why?

Edited June 20, 2005 by AgnosticFront84

[Ovedya]

OKay, well first of all, what is the theory that we are being asked to prove or disprove? Maybe I missed it somewhere?

Secondly, there is a fatal flaw in your hypothetical. That is: " Let's say Bob is a christian...Unfortunately, when Bob dies he made the wrong choice and ends up in hell."

If Bob is a Christian then he didn't make the wrong choice. Therefore, he would not wind up in hell.

Finally, being that God is omniscient, and know who will and who will not receive Him, does not make Him evil. Further, it does not make Him more evil than is He were not omniscient.

Think about it this way: From the very beginning - Right from the time that man had first fallen in the garden, God gave man a way of salvation. Just as if man were presented with two doors: One which leads to salvation, and one which leads to perdition. The one that leads to salvation is marked with a big read "X" and a sign that points to it saying, "This way to salvation." The door that leads to perditions reads, "Do Not Enter."

However, some chose the wrong door. Does that make God evil? Not at all! It's not God's fault that people choose wrongly. The Lord Jesus Christ is the "door" to salvation. There is no ambiguity whatsoever about that fact. God came to the earth int he form of a man, to die on the cross for the sins of all of mankind. His death was the "big red X" displaying to all the earth that He is the way to salvation. The writings of the apostles are the "signs" pointing to Christ, and away from perdition.

[AgnosticFront84]

OKay, well first of all, what is the theory that we are being asked to prove or disprove?  Maybe I missed it somewhere? 

My fault, my theory is that God is evil and knows your eternal afterlife before he creates you.

Secondly, there is a fatal flaw in your hypothetical.  That is: " Let's say Bob is a christian...Unfortunately, when Bob dies he made the wrong choice and ends up in hell."

If Bob is a Christian then he didn't make the wrong choice. Therefore, he would not wind up in hell.

Bob was a christian. As I was. But, he denounced Jesus as his personal savior or whatever you wanna call it. He was then doomed to hell for rejecting christianity before his life ended. My fault again, I was a bit vague.

Finally, being that God is omniscient, and know who will and who will not receive Him, does not make Him evil. Further, it does not make Him more evil than is He were not omniscient.

That is exactly my point. If he KNOWS who will or not receive him before he creates them, why create souls that will spend eternity in hellfire?

Think about it this way:  From the very beginning - Right from the time that man had first fallen in the garden, God gave man a way of salvation.  Just as if man were presented with two doors: One which leads to salvation, and one which leads to perdition.  The one that leads to salvation is marked with a big read "X" and a sign that points to it saying, "This way to salvation." The door that leads to perditions reads, "Do Not Enter."

However, some chose the wrong door.  Does that make God evil?  Not at all!  It's not God's fault that people choose wrongly.  The Lord Jesus Christ is the "door" to salvation.  There is no ambiguity whatsoever about that fact.  God came to the earth int he form of a man, to die on the cross for the sins of all of mankind.  His death was the "big red X" displaying to all the earth that He is the way to salvation.  The writings of the apostles are the "signs" pointing to Christ, and away from perdition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not saying that when people choose the wrong door it makes God evil. I'm saying the fact that God is constantly creating souls he KNOWS will end up in hell makes him evil. It's kinda like watching a movie you've already seen...you want the ending to be different, but you know it was made that way and it cannot be changed. The decisions by the characters in the movie cannot be controlled by you, but you already know what choices they will make. Such as God cannot control your choices but knows what choices you'll make because he is omniscient. I hope I'm making myself clear here.

[EricH]

OKay, well first of all, what is the theory that we are being asked to prove or disprove?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I would have to agree with Ovedya.

You also are negating the fact that due to your Free will. God cannot make you do anything. Therefore He is not liable for the choices you have made. Especially when the Truth has been known as evidenced by the very Creation itself.

God is not looking for Puppets. It would have been pretty easy to make us all have strings and to dance around to the beat of His drum. However that is not Love. That is slavery at the point of His Will. He Loves us too much for that.

That would garner Him no Glory. I myself am a bondservant to the Lord Jesus Christ out of gratitude for the Love He has extended to me. I Freely accept His Lordship over my life. I Freely lay down my Freedom to His Will. I have never ever been so Free. Free to be a child in the House of my Father.

You are making the same argument as the prodigal son;

Lu

[Ovedya]

OKay, well first of all, what is the theory that we are being asked to prove or disprove?

[AgnosticFront84]

Define evil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you don't know what "evil" is, then maybe you shouldn't jump into this...

www.dictionary.com says:

"Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction"

[Trust & Obey]

Here is a theory set up like a logic proof in regards to free will and God's omniscience.  Please feel free to criticize or explain how it would be false. This is all in terms of christianity and the bible.

Given:

God is omnipotent

God is omniscient

We have free-will

Agree? OK, good.  Here goes:

God is omniscient (all-knowing), meaning there is absolutely nothing he does not know past, present, and future.  As humans on this earth, we have the ability to make the choices we want that will either lead us into heaven or hell.  To reject Jesus Christ as God's son and our Lord and Savior will result in a trip to hell.  When God wants to create a new soul (let's call him Bob), he knows what choices Bob will make before he makes them.  Realize Bob is still making the choices because of his free-will and God is just watching knowing what he'll decide.  God always knew what Bob will decide all the way until he dies and knows wether he'll end up in heaven or hell.  Let's say Bob is a christian and like your average christian goes through many phases of his relationship to his faith such as being saved, backsliding, re-dedicating his life to christ, backsliding, losing faith in christianity, re-dedicating his life (you know what I'm talkin about  ).  Unfortunately, when Bob dies he made the wrong choice and ends up in hell. Now, God KNEW that Bob would end up in hell for eternity before he even created him. To say that God didn't know would be taking knowledge from God making his omniscient status a falsehood. So, God MUST have known what choices Bob would make and where he would end up. To me, this makes God an evil God. Why would he have created a soul knowing it would inevitably be in an eternal fiery furnace. So full of love to create a being he KNEW would end up in the pyrotechnic playground. Why? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agnostic, let me first say that I used to listen to that band way back in the late 80's. Oh, what ugly days those were.

Anyways, let me ask you something. Where are you right now with Jesus Christ? You seem a little too "versed."

What is keeping you from trusting the Lord Jesus and thereby walking through the "right Door?"

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

[AgnosticFront84]

Okay, fair enough.  But who says that God is "creating souls?"  I just want to be clear on your understanding of this point before we go on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If God isn't, then who is? A christian's microcosm consists of god (the trinity if your demonination is into that sort of thing), satan, angels, demons, and humans. If I left anything out left me know...So, my question to you is, if it isn't god, then who is it? Mother nature? Father time?

[Ovedya]

Okay, fair enough.