What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[Fisher of Men]

 

The limited definition of "saved' meaning the escape from hell without its true and correct attached definition of being saved from committing sin creates a demonic gospel. One where ongoing obedience isn't necessary for maintaining salvation.

That is a definition that YOU have manufactured, Fisher. Nowhere are we saved from committing sin. You are the one with the demonic gospel. You are attributing things to the Scriptures that it does not say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John 8:

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

The first century Pharisees hated Jesus for his teaching against sin and the freedom he came to give us over committing it, the same as the modern day Pharisees hate it.

OK Shiloh, show us how "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" doesn't mean that and how when Jesus made that statement, the freedom he came to give does not relate to freedom from committing it.

Your interpretation doesn't fit with the plain words the Holy Ghost used.

Our Messiah's name is Yeshua because he came to save us from our sin, not in spite of our continuance to commit sin. His coming to "take away sins" in Heb. 10 relates to taking them out of our committing them as we see in Jesus' example. Jesus, though tempted, did not commit them.

Heb. 4:

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We see here again the fuller definition of grace as per Tit. 2:11-14. Grace helps us to not commit sin. Changing the meaning of grace to exclude His favour expressed to us in giving us strength to not walk after the lust of the flesh unto salvation is turning the grace of God into lasciviousness.

Tit. 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

In order to be faithful to the Word, I must maintain that a gospel that perverts the definition of grace to exclude the fuller definition of the strengthening helping power against sin is nothing more than a counterfeit, demonic, false light gospel.

It is accursed as per Gal. 1:6-9. That is not the gospel of grace that Paul taught.

See Tit. 2:11-14 above.

Do we see John saying that Jesus came to make us righteous "positionally"?

Absolutely not. He contradicts that spirit of antichrist by declaring that

"he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

John is saying this in regard to being warned against deceivers. No doubt there were some saying you can be righteous without really being righteous. The Nicolaitanes probably taught that lie seeing that God hated their doctrine.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[nebula]

I agree with you that we have to agree on the definitions of the basic terms. My problem is that I believe your method for arriving at definitions is flawed

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's what I tend to be thinking as well.

[Guest shiloh357]

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

the word for "committeth" in the greek is rendered as a continuous or habitual practice. Those who are slaves to sin cannot help but to sin. They are slaves to it. This is the condition of the unsaved. It is not saying that those who occasionally sin are slaves to sin.

Jesus, according to Romans, came to save us from the power of sin. He did not remove from us the capacity to sin. There is nothing in the New Testament that says our eternal destiny is based upon sinless perfection.

Sin is a product of the fall. Man's fallen nature has not been eradicated, and we continue to war against our fallen nature. Had we been saved from committing sin, the capacity to commit sin would have been removed.

In order to be faithful to the Word, I must maintain that a gospel that perverts the definition of grace to exclude the fuller definition of the strengthening helping power against sin is nothing more than a counterfeit, demonic, false light gospel.

No one said that grace is not God's enabling. Grace is God's enabling to live righteous, but contrary to what you said elsewhere, it is not a guarantee against sin. You are manufacturing THAT part out of whole cloth.

[WayneB]

Whose work is our salvation?

Psalm 33

13 The LORD looks from heaven;

He sees all the sons of men;

14 From His dwelling place He looks out

On all the inhabitants of the earth,

15 He who fashions the hearts of them all,

He who understands all their works.

16 The king is not saved by a mighty army;

A warrior is not delivered by great strength.

17 A horse is a false hope for victory;

Nor does it deliver anyone by its great strength.

18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear Him,

On those who hope for His lovingkindness,

19 To deliver their soul from death

And to keep them alive in famine.

20 Our soul waits for the LORD;

He is our help and our shield.

21 For our heart rejoices in Him,

Because we trust in His holy name.

22 Let Your lovingkindness, O LORD, be upon us,

According as we have hoped in You.

[Kansasdad]

Whose work is our salvation?

      18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear Him,

        On those who hope for His lovingkindness,

   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are two parts to this verse, not just one. You must FEAR the Lord and you must HOPE.

What does it mean to FEAR the Lord?

It means you will obey him. The eye of the Lord is on those who do both, Obey and Believe, YOU MUST DO BOTH. Neither one is sufficient. Faith is both, believing and doing. You cannot separate the two. Just doing is not good enough, and just believing is not good enough. Faith is more than believing, Faith is more than doing. If you believe and continue to sin WITH NO FEAR you do not have faith. You are living a lie; your faith is a lie. This why just believing that Christ died for your sins and is your savior is dangerous. This is not faith. It is only half of the formula. You not only have to believe but you have to fear. Does repentance make sense here? If you fear would you not repent. Faith is bigger than belief, bigger than works, bigger than repentance. It is all of them and you cannot separate the elements with out destroying it. Salvation by belief alone is a lie, salvation by works alone is a lie, and salvation by repentance alone is a lie. Faith is all of this and anything less is a lie.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[Kabowd]

Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

This topic just goes in circles. There's no doubt that Fisher is trying to assert that one must earn their salvation by practicing obedience. (This is evident in the very title of his topic "Noah's works saved him"). Those who are wiser and more mature in their faith are trying to help him out by clarifying and correcting his misapplied scripture and self-imposed terms regarding salvation. But it all boils down to: do works save you or not? According to scripture, the answer is clearly NO. THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE IS TRYING TO STRESS HERE...ONLY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST SAVES.

Obedience, works, deeds, fruit....all of these things proceed out of a heart THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN REDEEMED, they are evidences of the Holy Spirit that resides within a believer. They do not aid in salvation, they are evidence of it.

Stop perpetuating the lie that obedience and works save. They don't. This is a lie straight from the pit of hell. Preach the blood of Christ which saves, tell of His goodness and kindness which leads to repentance, teach people how great it is to live in peace and freedom and know that your sins are forgiven.....spend your time LIVING in this freedom, walking in it and being a light in the darkness. This is what will lead others to the Lord. Not beating them over the head with the command to walk in obedience. You have it backwards and you cheapen grace in your demand to obey the law.

"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" ~ Gal. 3:3

[Kansasdad]

This has bothered me many time. The concept that faith leads to good works. This is fundamentally flawed. It is not the biblical teaching of what faith is. Faith is good works, +, the belief that Jesus is God and died for our sins, + repentance. It is like having a cake. and calling one ingredient the whole of the cake. Faith is not just the belief of Jesus Christ as your savior. Just like flower is not cake. but likewise if you don't have flower you don't have cake. You keep trying to separate the Ingredients, and by doing so you destroy faith. Good works are a fundamental part of faith, you can not separate it. By doing so you no longer have faith. Faith is more than good works, faith is more than the belief in Jesus, Faith is more than repentance. If you have faith you have all, not just one part that lead to another part. With out all the Ingredients you do not have faith. This includes, good works. Do good works play a part in your salvation. The answer is yes in so much as good works are a part of faith, not a result of Faith but a part of faith. Go back to scripture and look at all the references to Faith, put them all together and you get the whole, look at them separate and you see the Ingredients. Again I say Faith does not lead to good works. Good works are a fundamental part of faith which cannot be separated.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[apothanein kerdos]

So we have to work to obtain faith?

How in the world can you consider that Biblical? The concept that faith brings about good works is so biblical it's almost indisputable...even Roman Catholics teach it (though they believe the good works must continue to maintain faith).

Matthew 7:14-27 is a good study you should partake in. Both parables talk about having a solid foundation and from that foundation would come works. WIth the vine, we must be of a good vine (faith) to produce good fruit (works). In the foundation He talks about acting upon our faith. That if we dno't act upon our faith we have nothing. This still indicates that in order to act we have to have faith to begin with.

It's just logical. Why would you work for something you have no faith in? YOu have to believe before you can work for it.

[Guest shiloh357]

This has bothered me many time.  The concept that faith leads to good works.  This is fundamentally flawed.  It is not the biblical teaching of what faith is.  Faith is good works, +, the belief that Jesus is God and died for our sins, + repentance.  It is like having a cake. and calling one ingredient the whole of the cake.  Faith is not just the belief of Jesus Christ as your savior.  Just like flower is not cake.  but likewise if you don't have flower you don't have cake.  You keep trying to separate the Ingredients, and by doing so you destroy faith.  Good works are a fundamental part of faith, you can not separate it.  By doing so you no longer have faith.  Faith is more than good works, faith is more than the belief in Jesus, Faith is more than repentance.  If you have faith you have all, not just one part that lead to another part.  With out all the Ingredients you do not have faith.  This includes, good works.  Do good works play a part in your salvation.  The answer is yes in so much as good works are a part of faith, not a result of Faith but a part of faith.  Go back to scripture and look at all the references to Faith, put them all together and you get the whole, look at them separate and you see the Ingredients.  Again I say Faith does not lead to good works.  Good works are a fundamental part of faith which cannot be separated.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is your understanding of faith that is flawed, Kansasdad. As has been said ad nauseum, it can demonstrated that faith is displayed by works. Works spring from what you believe.

An analogy: When an Army paratrooper jumps from the plane, does that not spring from faith? He has faith that he is skilled to jump and arrive upon the ground safely. He has faith that the guy assigned to pack his chute packed it properly. He has faith that when he pulls the rip chord the chute will deploy properly. It is that faith that gives him the confidence to jump. If he knows the guy that packed his chute had a history of packing the chute improperly, or if he was not sure that he had sufficient training, he would not jump. His jump is the outgrowth of his confidence that all the variables had been accounted for properly.

You will live what you believe, ultimately. You cannot escape it. Faith is not works. That is just absurd. Faith is the catalyst for good works. You cannot escape that reality in any other context, and you cannot escape it in the context of salvation either. It is simply what the Bible says.

In Hebrews 11, it says, "by faith" this or that person did such and such. It was by faith. Faith was the avenue the conduit through which their good works were made manifest. Faith is what spurred Abraham to live in sincerity before God. It was faith that gave the Hebrew exiles the courage to face the furnace in Babylon. Faith produces lives which please God.

[Kansasdad]

So we have to work to obtain faith?

How in the world can you consider that Biblical? The concept that faith brings about good works is so biblical it's almost indisputable...even Roman Catholics teach it (though they believe the good works must continue to maintain faith).

Matthew 7:14-27 is a good study you should partake in. Both parables talk about having a solid foundation and from that foundation would come works. WIth the vine, we must be of a good vine (faith) to produce good fruit (works). In the foundation He talks about acting upon our faith. That if we dno't act upon our faith we have nothing. This still indicates that in order to act we have to have faith to begin with.

It's just logical. Why would you work for something you have no faith in? YOu have to believe before you can work for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No that is not what I was trying to say, If that is what came through I have not explained myself well. another example, As many have stated, having faith includes a changing of the heart. Like, if you are holding on to hatred, or anger, you let it go, you give it up, you no longer cling to it. This is also doing, not just physical, but mental. But it isn't a one time shot. Faith still includes all the ingredients. You can not believe and then work for it. Works are an intricate part of the faith. Works, belief, repentance, it all comes together. It is a package deal. You take an ingredient out and you don't have faith. ie; faith with out works is dead, works cannot save any man,

It has been asked several times on this board. How do you define Faith?

Several have defined it by a single ingredient, it needs to be understood as a whole.

God Bless

Kansas Dad