A Question About the Fall

[Justin Adams]

27 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

So as you can clearly see, the Law came in so that transgression would INCREASE

My God is not like that.
No entrapment but a warning to circumvent the sons of God that set themselves up for worship with all those pagan pantheons from Babel on down thru history. Yahweh wanted His children to worship Him in His ways and to steer clear of the ways the pagans did it.

It is a horrible idea to suggest that our Loving God would want an increase in disobedience. Read Leviticus and see the Heart of God revealed also in the Torah.

My God is Good. All the time!!

[Billiards Ball]

On 10/13/2019 at 6:23 AM, FlyingToaster said:

In the biblical account of Genesis, it claim's that creation was originally perfect. There was no death or decay until Adam & Even disobeyed God's command (Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil)

However they did, and from that point they died in sin, which has now infected all nature on earth.

Now, what I can't understand is this. How did these two people end up causing the earth and the universe around them to fall into death and decay?

For example: 

Why do sun's that exist in other solar systems, in other galaxies decay? How did the whole universe end up falling into a state of death and decay, because of what two people decided in the garden of Eden that was unconnected to the rest of the universe.

There was no death in the universe before the Fall. Now there is--which seems big enough to match the need for the Savior to die and rise! Check out Romans 8 for a complete explanation of the Fall as it touches the universe outside our Earth.

[dhchristian]

11 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

My God is not like that.
No entrapment but a warning to circumvent the sons of God that set themselves up for worship with all those pagan pantheons from Babel on down thru history. Yahweh wanted His children to worship Him in His ways and to steer clear of the ways the pagans did it.

It is a horrible idea to suggest that our Loving God would want an increase in disobedience. Read Leviticus and see the Heart of God revealed also in the Torah.

My God is Good. All the time!!

I Am just quoting what Paul wrote. I Quoted the NASB, Here is the KJV, which has the offence as singular as well. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 

So I am not sure what translation you are using to make this plural, But perhaps you should examine the original text. 

Here is the ESV. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, (ESV)

So that is singular again.....

 

[dhchristian]

36 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Biblical scholars know that Paul subordinates the Law to Christ (Gal 3:1-18). He writes about how the Law could not result in the fruition of the promises given to Abraham (and, by extension, to all nations; Gen 12:1-3). Paul then asks “Why then was the law given?” He answers that it was “added because of transgressions” (Gal 3:19). The most common assumption is that this (somehow) means the Law was a response to Adam’s sin, or human sins. But Adam sinned only once so far as the Bible tells us. Opting for the law being added in response to human sins doesn’t address why humanity became so wicked that it needed the law. Most Christians would defer to Adam’s transgression at this point, but there is no Romans 5:12 in Galatians (Romans is a later epistle). This episode takes a minority view of Paul’s statement about the addition of the law—at least among Christians. This view, however, reflects the viewpoint of nearly every Second Temple Jewish text (Paul’s era) known to exist that comments on human depravity:  that the Law was added to restrain human evil, which proliferated not because of Adam, but because of the sin of the Watchers in Gen 6:1-4.

Look, I am not denying the role of the watchers in getting the sin snowball rolling, but ultimately the responsibility is on man, "as by one man's sin". When Christ came we have a turning point in History, That rolling snowball no longer had the gravity needed to roll, and grow, But sin remains and only those who approach the cross can have that snow begin to melt. When that snow melts living Water begins to flow, first a trickle, then a stream, then a river. But if the snow is a mixture of Satan and man's sin, then the snow will never melt.

I am sorry for using this analogy, but it is the only one that I can come up with to convey what HE is showing me right now.

And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins. Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. (Ezekiel 47:3-5) 

[Justin Adams]

The Addition of the Law
19 Why then the law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the descendant should come to whom it had been promised, having been ordered through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now the mediator is not for one, but God is one. 

It is quite clear in this passage.

The fall gave us the lagacy of death. Not GUILT. The sins of the angels that fell gave us the horrors we now face today. They taught us how to sin with a vengence. Any Israeli of the second temple period and before will tell you that. Only the 'modern' people that have rewritten scripture to hide the principalities and powers involvement see it any other way. Yeshua and the apostles were of the second temple period. Their theology was so very different to ours today, but it may be searched out. Scholars and peer review scholarship has incorporated the Qumran in the better translations.
If your theology and commentaries are older the 2010 (cuneform translations) then it is out of date and obsolete.

After the second temple period, about AD 200 the Hebrew theology was rewritten and the Septuagint considered heretical because it refered to the 'second person' of the Godhead. Likewise the Masoretic text was 'modified'. But God got us to discover the Essene's literature and old texts. Truth cannot be hidden. Qumran supports our oldest Hebrew texts and gives us much more background as well. Yeshua and the aposltes would have been well versed in these and other texts, which is why the apostles refer to these text a great deal. However, you will not notice the similarity in content if you do not study these other texts. The New Testament has dozens of references pointing to these 'other' ancient texts that we are not allowed to read. 

Just remember, a 'canon' is only created to protect those that espouse a certain view - often historically on pain of death. Our theology is based on those 'canons' which really have no bearing on anything except dogma and fear.

 

[Dennis1209]

On 10/13/2019 at 5:23 AM, FlyingToaster said:

How did the whole universe end up falling into a state of death and decay, because of what two people decided in the garden of Eden that was unconnected to the rest of the universe.

Funny, I just commented and questioned on this exact same subject on another thread, in particular: Romans 8:22 (KJV) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

I personally agree with most of what Justin stated above. I'm not going to re-post it all, but...

Adam lost the dominion [title deed if you will] to earth, and it was usurped and given over to Satan. The principalities and power of the air are not just limited to our atmosphere it seems, but the entire universe and other dimensions. It's interesting to deeply study the first chapter of Genesis for many reasons. The actual and correct Hebrew meanings of certain words in the first two verses of Genesis, when applied to the translation, gives the verse a whole new understanding and comprehension. 

My understanding is; death entered our world because of one man's sin. We know Satan rebelled and sinned before tempting Eve in the Garden of Eden. Therefore to me, it stands to reason Satan and his minions must have contaminated our visible universe? Notice the question mark, as it's just a thought of mine.

[Justin Adams]

3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

The Addition of the Law
19 Why then the law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the descendant should come to whom it had been promised, having been ordered through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now the mediator is not for one, but God is one. 

We have all been sold this idea that Adam (and us) are the reason for all sin and the horrors that perpetuate our world. The adversaries love this and furthermore, the fictional characters of Animal farm also loved the idea of faulty confessions of huge transgression. This seems to be a human destructive concept. We wanna be BIG and we wanna sin BIG. This is far from truth. Adam gave us a legacy of death. All die because they are now in hasatan's kingdom. The kingdom of death. The underworld where the spirits of the dead product of the angels that sinned inhabit. A fearsome place. 

It was the fallen holy ones that got human to REALLY excell in doing evil things, though the Nephilim, ended up cannibalising the few reamaining humans before turning on each other.
 
The Nephilim were the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" before the Deluge, according to Genesis 6:1–4

THE VALLEY OF THE REPHAIM, OR GIANTS, was famous in Joshua's time, Joshua 15:8 17:15 18:16, and in the time of David, who here defeated the Philistines, 2 Samuel 5:18,22 1 Chronicles 11:6 14:9. It was a broad and fertile valley, Isaiah 17:5, beginning near the valley of Hinnom, and extending several miles south-west from Jerusalem, when it contracted to a narrow passage leading off towards the Mediterranean. It was in Judah, but near the border of Benjamin. 

ref'-a-im, re-fa'-im (repha'-im, from rapha', "a terrible one "hence "giant," in 1 Chronicles 20:4, yelidhe ha-rapha', "sons of the giant"; the King James Version, Rephaims): A race of aboriginal or early inhabitants East of the Jordan in Ashterothkarnaim (Genesis 14:5) and in the valley of Rephaim Southwest of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). They associated with other giant races, as the Emim and Anakim (Deuteronomy 2:10, 11) and the Zamzummim (Deuteronomy 2:20). It is probable that they were all of the same stock, being given different names by the different tribes who came in contact with them. The same Hebrew word is rendered "the dead," or "the shades" in various passages (Job 26:5 margin; Psalm 88:10 margin; Proverbs 2:18 margin; Proverbs 9:18 margin; Proverbs 21:16 margin; Isaiah 14:9 margin; Isaiah 26:14, 19 margin). In these instances the word is derived from rapheh, "weak," "powerless," "a shadow" or "shade."

[Behold]

On 10/22/2019 at 1:44 PM, Justin Adams said:

Paul said the law was given for transgressions. The Watcher's transgressions.. the Law to keep Israel pure from the fallen divine hosts that craved their worship. Read the context...

The first acts of diobedience were the sons of God. Ever since then, they love it when we blame Adam for it all...

It DID NOT begin with Adam.

Actually Paul didnt teach what you are teaching.

The stuff you are teaching, is not found in the Bible, (as church doctrine), but it is found in the books and in the theology of the people you subscribe to and follow, who do not follow the word of God as Christians would need to follow it.

Paul said that the law is given to show the sinfulness of sin.   So,  because the law is given, it becomes the righteous judge of a Christ Rejector's sin, (in this age)  which defines  what God's holiness is, as compared to what sin  is, and does.

The Law establishes the concept of sin and proves it is sin, as the law is Holy.   Where there is no law there is no transgression, because there is nothing given by God to define immorality as sinful.

However, anytime God speaks and says "dont do that"......as in the case of Adam and Eve, then this is  Moral and Absolute LAW, and when they broke this Law, they established their fall which produces the Adamic Nature.

Christ came as the sinless 2nd Adam, to restore humanity back to "Sonship" status in God's Family.

The end result of the law is not to keep Israel pure, but its to show the world why it needs the Cross.   Galatians 3:24.

Now, i'm not certain you realize this Justin, but you are on a Christian forum, where Christians are found.  And when you are dealing with Christians, its best to not try to convince them that "mystical" books and teachings that are not recognized within CHRISTIANITY as being a part of the Torah, or the NT, ... that these are to  supersede the Holy Bible, according to YOU.

You are on a CHRISTIAN FORUM teaching that the bible is wrong ?????, the church is wrong, and are only proving that you are deeply mentally committed to  some sort of fringe belief system, and you would do well to take that away from a Christian Forum, as this would be the right thing for you to do, for the benefit of the CHRISTIANS here.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Behold

[Justin Adams]

It would be a great idea if everyone studied the scripts that Yeshua knew and His apostles quoted. You will NOT recognize this unless you ALSO study them. So it is a circular conundrum. What you don't know can hurt you...

They were well read, unlike most today who play fast and loose with 'doctrine' never having studied it for themselves.

[Justin Adams]

9 hours ago, Behold said:

The stuff you are teaching, is not found in the Bible, (as church doctrine), but it is found in the books and in the theology of the people you subscribe to and follow, who do not follow the word of God as Christians would need to follow it.

That is OK. It is expected of those following Augustine and others that stripped the scriptures of their supernatural components. That is why today they are all chasing ufos and false Gnostic ideas that permeated beliefs that are not only second-hand and third hand, but are theologically without merit. 

Of course Saul/Paul taught against sin, but if you read the context of this passage - the before and after verses, you will see what he was talking about.

Peter and Jude both refer to the principalities and powers (Deut 32 and Psalm 82) and the 'holy ones that sinned'. They often refer to the Divine Council and the laws that God gave were to distance His people from their neighbors that worshiped the false 'gods' that he had put over the 70 nations.

Yes, I see I am on a Christian forum. I also see that purveyors of questionable doctrine and incomplete doctrine are bound to want to oppose those that understand more, or have a different perspective.

Yeshua, His apostles and many of the second temple era, were not afraid of their scriptures. That is why Greek Mythology is quoted and often even pagan myths re-purposed by the apostles. But if you do not study this, you will never see it.

When Yeshua says 'henceforth, you will see me coming on the clouds' to the high priest - where do you think He got 'cloud rider' from? Ancient Mesopotamian and Ugaritic myths all say that the deity 'rode on the clouds'. It is THEIR context and THEIR worldview. We miss so much if we deny scholarship and study.

If you do not study, you will not know.