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FlyingToaster

A Question About the Fall

Question

In the biblical account of Genesis, it claim's that creation was originally perfect. There was no death or decay until Adam & Even disobeyed God's command (Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil)

However they did, and from that point they died in sin, which has now infected all nature on earth.

Now, what I can't understand is this. How did these two people end up causing the earth and the universe around them to fall into death and decay?

For example: 

Why do sun's that exist in other solar systems, in other galaxies decay? How did the whole universe end up falling into a state of death and decay, because of what two people decided in the garden of Eden that was unconnected to the rest of the universe.

Edited by FlyingToaster
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Probably slightly wrong on several counts.

Firstly, God said it was 'very good'. Eden was the only perfect place. That is why it was guarded after he kicked out Adam and Eve.

Secondly, most Hebrew and inter-testament theology points at the Gen 6 fall of the Watchers as being the most pivotal issue regarding transgressions. Sure, Adam gave us the death legacy, but the fallen holy ones taught humans how to really sin and get the horrors going.

You may not see any of this unless you study the books that the Hebrew scholars studied AND Yeshua and the early apostles. Peter, Jude and Paul were well versed in what really caused the horrors that eventuated in the flood. Read Galatians with this in mind. Read 'transgressions' as indicative of what was in the mind of the apostle. Enoch and other books were well understood and only four of the hundreds of Hebrew scholars and church fathers thought this was not the major issue. Four out of hundreds. It was well understood in the early church until Augustine and his doctrines came along...

Our modern church stuff has ruled out much of the supernatural. It has stripped believers of the tools necessary to understand all this.

Gen 6 was THE major issue facing humanity. It has percolated down thru the ages and NOW we face a final insurgence which will blow anyone's mind. Do not think the current 'du jour' of aliens and UFOs are an accident. The principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places have got us all chasing our tails over this...

Yeshua said: "As in the days of Noah.."

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I'm not sure how eating of the tree gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil...   but it does bring up something that gives me pause to ponder.

Paul tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians that we will judge angels.

God made humans not knowing good from evil, so how were we supposed to judge anything.

When did God decide to have us judge angels.....   I find it very difficult to believe that was just an afterthought from the fruit eating thing....   I am forced to believe it was his intention from the start....   and the poetic justice of it all is that Satan (the head fallen angel) actually talked Eve into eating of the fruit.

Considering everything, I find it difficult to think the universe was ever intended to last forever.    As Justin said, he just said it was good....   to me meaning it was jus what he wanted.

It all will be destroyed by fire....   and a new heaven and earth will appear....    a new City of Jerusalem for our homes.     God isn't a dummy and I don't think anything surprises him...   all this is was meant to be from the very beginning.

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Yah gotta look at this from the standpoint of design.

The so-called church has listened to the principalities and tried lump everything on Adam's shoulders.

Just read your theology carefully and see the misdirects down thru the ages. Not once in the Tanakh is 'the fall of Adam' mentioned as the cause of all sins. The writers were well versed in their scripture and said what they meant. They knew it was fallen heavenly beings that caused it all. And the watchers are bound in Tartarus (Greek myth). The writers of our scriptures were clever fellows and they saw the Nacash for what it was; Gen 6, for what it was and Gen 11 for what it was. 

It is only us moderns that do not have a clue about all this stuff so we will not be ready and able to detect it when it is repeated. The 'Archons' are not anywhere near as clever as God and while they might corrupt His ideas and perhaps copy them, they cannot be original at all. 

Holy Spirit illuminates things for us, without whom we would all be in ignorance. He might even reveal stuff to those that are considered of no account. Outcasts perhaps. The wind blows where IT wills...

I think it is high time we threw out our Augustine (and others) theology books and started over.

Edited by Justin Adams

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1 hour ago, FlyingToaster said:

How did the whole universe end up falling into a state of death and decay, because of what two people decided

That is not it at all. Never was, never will be.

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As Paul says all of humanity was still in Adam and Eve so all there decendents were marred with sin. But creation groans because God cursed it.

If you want to learn more sites like answersingenesis or creation.com are worth studing, you don't have to subsceribe to YEC, but as they stand on the authority and reliablity of the bible they have plenty od articles about these sort of questions.

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On 10/13/2019 at 7:46 AM, Justin Adams said:

Not once in the Tanakh is 'the fall of Adam' mentioned as the cause of all sins.

Sin is singular. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

It all began with Adam (One Man, and one Sin) the original sin. Like a Snowball, it grew as it rolled down the Hill. 

Paul was a scholar and studied the Tanakh, and came to the conclusion that One man's sin was the cause of all sin. The Cross changed all that. We now are capable by the Blood of the Lamb to overcome that ONE SIN by faith in the Blood of the Lamb. But that can only be done by casting our sin at the cross. When You find out what that original sin is (Clue unbelief is the root of all sin), and cast it at the cross, that is when the righteousness of Christ is imputed upon us, and we are free from Sin. 

On 10/13/2019 at 6:23 AM, FlyingToaster said:

Why do sun's that exist in other solar systems, in other galaxies decay? How did the whole universe end up falling into a state of death and decay, because of what two people decided in the garden of Eden that was unconnected to the rest of the universe.

Flying Toaster,

Sin caused a separation between creation and the Holy God. His Justice demanded the immediate destruction of all he created once sin entered into the picture. Instead, God in his mercy removed his presence from his creation which led to decay. Decay is the result of this separation between God and his creation caused by sin. Restoration is through Christ Jesus at his second coming....

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:18-23) 

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Paul said the law was given for transgressions. The Watcher's transgressions.. the Law to keep Israel pure from the fallen divine hosts that craved their worship. Read the context...

The first acts of diobedience were the sons of God. Ever since then, they love it when we blame Adam for it all...

It DID NOT begin with Adam.

Edited by Justin Adams

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On 10/22/2019 at 2:44 PM, Justin Adams said:

Paul said the law was given for transgressions. The Watcher's transgressions.. the Law to keep Israel pure from the fallen divine hosts that craved their worship. Read the context...

The first acts of diobedience were the sons of God. Ever since then, they love it when we blame Adam for it all...

It DID NOT begin with Adam.

What you say here contradicts what Paul said in the verses I quoted above. Here let me quote from an easier to understand version.

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression [fn]there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [fn]there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 5:17-21, NASB)

So as you can clearly see, the Law came in so that transgression would INCREASE, which also contradicts what you wrote. Sin is sin because man was given a law (singular) in the first place and free will to choose to sin, and also by that free will they can choose receive grace and to serve God. The Angels were not given this free will. The sons of God were seduced by the daughters of men to sin. So in a sense Man is the root of their sin as well.

Now we come to the Devil himself, the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. "The Devil made me do it" has long been an excuse for our wickedness and sin. But Ultimately Sin was a conscious choice of Adam (Eve having been beguiled) to sin. Once we admit and understand this we can admit our fallenness and need for God to intervene by His grace, which he did at the cross. Now we are offered a free gift which we must choose to receive, which will redeem us from this fallen nature. Romans 5:16-18 deals with this free gift. I Quoted 17-18 above here are verses 15-16 from the KJV.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. (Romans 5:15-16)

Do You see how lessening the responsibility of man for their sin by blaming it on Satan therefore cheapens the grace of God? When You extend this then into prophetic texts, this error makes impossible for us to overcome Satan by the Blood of the Lamb and the Word of our testimony (Rev. 12:11).  Why is that? Because when we are not fully responsible for our sin then Satan himself must be redeemed in order for us to overcome sin, and thereby overcome Satan. I do not know if you can see this or not as I am having a hard time explaining this in rational way, what I Know in the Spirit to be the case? 

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Your translation may not be correct. Transgressions is plural.

The Addition of the Law
19 Why then the law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the descendant should come to whom it had been promised, having been ordered through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now the mediator is not for one, but God is one

He he affirms that though he speaks of angels (plural) he affirms monotheism. The Lord our god is One... The Shema.

Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ga 3:19–20). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Biblical scholars know that Paul subordinates the Law to Christ (Gal 3:1-18). He writes about how the Law could not result in the fruition of the promises given to Abraham (and, by extension, to all nations; Gen 12:1-3). Paul then asks “Why then was the law given?” He answers that it was “added because of transgressions” (Gal 3:19). The most common assumption is that this (somehow) means the Law was a response to Adam’s sin, or human sins. But Adam sinned only once so far as the Bible tells us. Opting for the law being added in response to human sins doesn’t address why humanity became so wicked that it needed the law. Most Christians would defer to Adam’s transgression at this point, but there is no Romans 5:12 in Galatians (Romans is a later epistle). This episode takes a minority view of Paul’s statement about the addition of the law—at least among Christians. This view, however, reflects the viewpoint of nearly every Second Temple Jewish text (Paul’s era) known to exist that comments on human depravity:  that the Law was added to restrain human evil, which proliferated not because of Adam, but because of the sin of the Watchers in Gen 6:1-4.

Check this out: 

https://www.nakedbiblepodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Transcript-94-Sin-of-Watchers-and-Galatians-3-4.pdf

Edited by Justin Adams

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27 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

So as you can clearly see, the Law came in so that transgression would INCREASE

My God is not like that.
No entrapment but a warning to circumvent the sons of God that set themselves up for worship with all those pagan pantheons from Babel on down thru history. Yahweh wanted His children to worship Him in His ways and to steer clear of the ways the pagans did it.

It is a horrible idea to suggest that our Loving God would want an increase in disobedience. Read Leviticus and see the Heart of God revealed also in the Torah.

My God is Good. All the time!!

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