A Question About the Fall

[dhchristian]

19 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Just remember, a 'canon' is only created to protect those that espouse a certain view - often historically on pain of death. Our theology is based on those 'canons' which really have no bearing on anything except dogma and fear.

I find your comments a bit disturbing in that they deny the power and presence of the Holy Ghost in preserving the veracity and reliability of the Scriptures which we have now. I Find your view of the Early church very concerning as well, trying to mix Pagan mysticism into it.... Yes this Pagan Babylonian Mysticism was all around Judaism and the culture of the time, But the Church was distinct from and stood apart from these heresies. As such they were Purists in their doctrine Trying to rid Judaism of the Babylonian influence.

We have now two millennia of the Spirit of Truth confirming the authority of the canon of scripture in the Lives of millions of people who have been saved and transformed by the grace of God, to deny this is to deny the Holy Ghost. No 0ne wise is to blame for man's sin but man himself.... "for as by one man's sin".... This singular sin is the root of all sin and the sacrifice of one is the root of all redemption from sin.

19 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

The fall gave us the lagacy of death. Not GUILT. The sins of the angels that fell gave us the horrors we now face today. They taught us how to sin with a vengence. Any Israeli of the second temple period and before will tell you that. Only the 'modern' people that have rewritten scripture to hide the principalities and powers involvement see it any other way. Yeshua and the apostles were of the second temple period. Their theology was so very different to ours today, but it may be searched out. Scholars and peer review scholarship has incorporated the Qumran in the better translations.
If your theology and commentaries are older the 2010 (cuneform translations) then it is out of date and obsolete.

It sounds to me like you do not want to take personal responsibility for sin, and instead want to blame it on the watchers. Like I said above, the Holy Ghost has preserved the Truth of the Word of God, not men, and men will not restore it.... In fact the opposite is true, men are trying to corrupt the Word of God Just like they always have. This began since there was a scripture whether that be under Babylonian captivity, Or the Gnostics of Alexandria that John the Apostle had to deal with whose texts are now in vogue for "modern translations" Or the Alteration of Islam and the Koran that tried to rewrite large swaths of scripture. You see The Canon as we have it is not some "dogma and fear" inducing conspiracy but is the Work of the Holy Ghost protecting and purifying it, and the negation of those extrabiblical texts Was part of this Work of the Holy Ghost. And We as Christians who have the Holy Ghost know the truth of the Scriptures. IMO you are straying from this reliance on the Spirit of Truth and falling victim to the Higher criticism of the intelligentsia that denies the supernatural Holy Spirit empowered preservation of the Word of God and are placing your faith in Human scholarship which has produced many of these heretical texts that have been rejected by good men led by the Holy Ghost.

That Being said, If you want to read the book of Enoch Or the writings of Qumran, go right ahead, and if you want to read the mystical teachings of Judaism as found in the Talmud, then go ahead, but know this, they stand in contrast to the Purity and inerrancy of the Word of God as preserved by the Holy Ghost through the saints which with diligence preserved the Word of God. You can find this diligence at work in the writings of the early church, the very disciples of those first Apostles, so by all means do take the time and read their works as well in contrast to the heresies they rejected. Some of those early church writings are heretical as well, and without the Holy Ghost at work preserving the inerrancy of the Word of God, then these corruptions would have also entered into canon as well, nevertheless works like the Gospel of Thomas, The shepherd of Hermas, and the apocalypse of Peter were rejected as well of being canonical.   

 

 

 

[Justin Adams]

41 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

You can find this diligence at work in the writings of the early church, the very disciples of those first Apostles

Let my people THINK - for themselves!!

The church fathers were mostly mysogenists. Read them and see. Also some did not like Jews and wanted to portray Yeshua as a white male... check out the early canons against the Israelis. You might be surprised...

"It sounds to me like you do not want to take personal responsibility for sin".
Get it all in perspective and understand what any second temple period Hebrew would have fully grasped.
Yeshua and His apostles are of this period.
I have taken and always will take responsibilty for my sins. Who are you to question this?  

Do we really need another inquisition? To point out how we err from the dictates of an autocratic religious body, and thus to be punished? We do not need this. Have we not had enough of this? Church history is sadly full of this kind of thinking.

Qumran preserved the writings that the 'church' later massaged and edited. They are included in most of the later scripture translations. If you knock the Qumran discoveries, you demostrate your commentaries and translations are outdated since 2010. **Peer review scholarship verifies their authenticity. Only those steeped in Augustinian theology would object. Augustine was NOT a nice person.

"The Talmud is a central text of mainstream Judaism and consists primarily of discussions and co in most modernmmentary on Jewish history, law (especially its practical application to life), customs and culture. The Talmud consists of what are known as the Gemara and the Mishnah." (quote from gotquestions.org)

To quote your views and speak for Holy Spirit is dangerous at best, and fraught with telling issues at worst.
If you attribute something to the Spirit that is untrue, you are treading close to the edge. The church thought it was preserving 'the word' when they killed off so many believers over the past ages. 

Read Jeremiah 1 and see the Word in action. The Holy Spirit does not need our protection. He is well able to preserve what He has done and what He has Created. Try reading the Qumran scribes and see.

" the negation of those extrabiblical texts Was part of this Work of the Holy Ghost"  This is a very dangerous thing to affirm.

I think we should let people discover for themselves, since Holy Spirit guides each of us INDIVIDUALLY, and we are NOT allowed into heaven based upon some theological compromise or pulpit position.

**Peer review scholarship takes years to be published and critically accepted or otherwise by their peers. Many hundreds of scholars have verified the Qumran discoveris.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Justin Adams

[other one]

I hope you do realize that 90% of the time when Jesus quoted the Old Testament he quoted the Septuagint word for word..... 

[dhchristian]

Just now, Justin Adams said:

The church fathers were mostly mysogenists. Read them and see. Also some did not like Jews and wanted to portray Yeshua as a white male... check out the early canons against the Israelis. You might be surprised...

And the Essenes were not? And those who wrote the Talmud were not? Everyone living in those times were Misogynists in that the World was largely paternalistic. Even Paul's writings can be construed as Misogynistic.  I mean this has next to nothing to do with the argument here. In fact, from a feminist perspective all of scripture is misogynistic. Perhaps you meant to use a different word here?

And then there is race.... So now you are trying to play the "race card".... Are you one of them Hebrew Israelites That say all Africans are the true Jewish people? Cause they say this all the time.

1 minute ago, Justin Adams said:

"It sounds to me like you do not want to take personal responsibility for sin".
Get it all in perspective and understand what any second temple period Hebrew would have fully grasped.
Yeshua and His apostles are of this period.
I have taken and always will take responsibilty for my sins. Who are you to question this?  

Are you offended by a question? Or are you convicted by it? My Question is one on humanity in general, By placing the blame on the watchers you are IN FACT taking the responsibility for Sin (singular) away from Humans. By deferring this responsibility you are deferring the need for man to receive the redemption that comes by one Man....

 

7 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Do we really need another inquisition? To point out how we err from the dictates of an autocratic religious body, and thus to be punished? We do not need this. Have we not had enough of this? Church history is sadly full of this kind of thinking.

Qumran preserved the writings that the 'church' later massaged and edited. They are included in most of the later scripture translations. If you knock the Qumran discoveries, you demostrate your commentaries and translations are outdated since 2010. **Peer review scholarship verifies their authenticity. Only those steeped in Augustinian theology would object. Augustine was NOT a nice person.

Whoa! False accusations abound here. Am I promoting an autocratic religious body? Absolutely Not, I promoting the Holy Ghost and the inerrancy of the Word of God as preserved by the Holy Ghost.

Qumran: Your faith is in manology, as is exemplified in this comment, Some other examples of manology that have had disastrous results... The higher criticism of Germany in the late 19th century which led to the antisemitism of Nazi Germany, was a "peer reviewed" scientific approach to scriptural texts, or Calvinism, or the cult of textualism in the fundamentalist movement that denied the Holy Spirit and replaced Him with the scribes as dictators of doctrine, Or the scientific approach of the post modern pseudo theologians that justify LGBT marriage in this day and age. What you are doing is no different than promoting another such intellectual approach to the Word of God.

You fail to see the fact that the Gospel and the preaching thereof is "foolishness". For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1 Cor. 1:21) You fail to see that faith is "child like", and not elitist. You fail to see that God used not the wise of this world to do his work, but the simple, empowered by the Holy Ghost. Then you use the "demonizing" argument of finger pointing at Augustine, As others constantly do of pointing to Darby and Scofield here, instead of actually addressing the points made. Demonizing is a logical fallacy designed to elicit an emotional response in a debate about facts. What You are doing in fact is denying the Holy Ghost in me by what you are teaching and by doing so demonizing Him. do you see the danger in this next comment of yours?

42 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

To quote your views and speak for Holy Spirit is dangerous at best, and fraught with telling issues at worst.
If you attribute something to the Spirit that is untrue, you are treading close to the edge. The church thought it was preserving 'the word' when they killed off so many believers over the past ages.

You are treading on dangerous ground here. I will quote Paul here, as this is very telling and counters this without getting into the whole Blasphemy thing... For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:11-14)

I will let these words speak to you, rather than me getting in the way....

52 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

" the negation of those extrabiblical texts Was part of this Work of the Holy Ghost"  This is a very dangerous thing to affirm.

I think we should let people discover for themselves, since Holy Spirit guides each of us INDIVIDUALLY, and we are NOT allowed into heaven based upon some theological compromise or pulpit position.

It is a very dangerous thing to deny the discernment of the Holy Ghost as well, Many have sought their own way to their detriment. I am not promoting abstinence and the burning of these books, But I am saying the Holy Ghost, and the discernment he brings should be our teacher. Like I said I have read many of these books, but I have also read the books of those who rejected these books as well. It is like in modern days how a liberal will only watch liberal news outlets, and a conservative will only watch conservative news outlets. You are not getting the whole picture unless you read both, but even then you need to have a basis in Truth and a desire to know the Truth and discern the Truth, and in regards to theology we have the Spirit of Truth which discerns and teaches us. I Call on you to seek that teacher to teach you instead of trusting in your own INDIVIDUAL mind, for God is so much bigger than our mind can comprehend.    

 

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

I Find your view of the Early church very concerning as well, trying to mix Pagan mysticism into it.... Yes this Pagan Babylonian Mysticism was all around Judaism and the culture of the time, But the Church was distinct from and stood apart from these heresies. As such they were Purists in their doctrine Trying to rid Judaism of the Babylonian influence.

No doubt. But Gnostic teachings did no reach their full representation until much later. Check out how close High Calvinism is to this. Also the people you talk of DID study everything and KNEW what was false and what was true.

If you do not study this stuff, you will not recognise it when it rears its ugly head. Like is is today, even as we speak. Know your enemy and 'count the cost'. The Babel influence is well documented in Deut. 32 and its reason for existing. The principalities and powers would "not have crucified the King of Glory.. if they had known". This is stated by the apostle that was well versed in the evil powers and their reach. Today we refrain from teaching about this, and so people are ignorant. They therefore will not see it even now as it is coming back into vogue. It is ever present in our society now, yet who can see it?

Babel is reversed just like the sins of the watchers. Check out WHY Yeshua was transfigured on Mt Hermon - how He poked them in the eye and how He was crucified just a week or so later. "The gates of hell will not be able to withstand His church". This He said while stading right there at the foot of Hermon at the gates of hell or Bashan along with all its demon worship. He took the fight to them. He provoked them, and they killed Him. Just as He and the Father and the Spirit had planned it all along. You cannot have VICTORY over death and the gates to the underworld unless you DIE and are resurrected. Death no longer has any rights to those that believe in Him. The fallen holy ones have no porfolio now in the Divine Council. They have been disannulled. Their power is gone. His 'Kingdom Has come Nigh unto us'. The Deut 32 principalities and powers over the nations have been overthrown. Pentecost began the regathering of ALL nations and all peoples. All Israel shall be saved said the apostle. Non-Israelis and Israeli believers are now 'the Seed of Abraham'.

[dhchristian]

Just now, Justin Adams said:

If you do not study this stuff, you will not recognise it when it rears its ugly head. Like is is today, even as we speak. Know your enemy and 'count the cost'. The Babel influence is well documented in Deut. 32 and its reason for existing. The principalities and powers would "not have crucified the King of Glory.. if they had known". This is stated by the apostle that was well versed in the evil powers and their reach. Today we refrain from teaching about this, and so people are ignorant. They therefore will not see it even now as it is coming back into vogue. It is ever present in our society now, yet who can see it?

Again, I am not saying do not study these things. I am saying We need the Holy Ghost to help us discern.... Faith in the scientific method and human reasoning alone is not enough. You yourself are getting dangerously close to falling victim to this deception by what you have written because of your faith in your intellect, and I as a Christian am doing my Job of reproving you, and Pointing you to the One Great Rabbi we all need to be taught by.

Part of my ministry is summed up in the question "can the teacher be taught?" It is directed at those who are in roles of authority in the churches, as having been given gifts of understanding and teaching, But have stopped learning themselves. They are so sure of their own intellectual prowess that they are incapable of receiving divine revelations from the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth. Those who think they have got God all figured out are the ones who are ripe for being deceived, and the deception is not from without, but from within.  

[Justin Adams]

14 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

You are not getting the whole picture unless you read both, but even then you need to have a basis in Truth and a desire to know the Truth and discern the Truth, and in regards to theology we have the Spirit of Truth which discerns and teaches us. I Call on you to seek that teacher to teach you instead of trusting in your own INDIVIDUAL mind, for God is so much bigger than our mind can comprehend.    

I gree in part here. No disputing what the Spirit says. I have seen peer review scholarship from atheists that is more profound than some believers. It is God's universe, and if we do not speak what He wants, then He will raise up stones to speak for Him.

One of my favourite christians was Wigglesworth. I see that he had little time for some that spoke of that which they knew not personally.

[Justin Adams]

3 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Those who think they have got God all figured out are the ones who are ripe for being deceived, and the deception is not from without, but from within.  

Ha. I would caution anyone that thinks thus. For He is 'past finding out' and way past my understanding. 

I do not have an axe to grind as so many others do. I encourage scholarship and people finding out more than they think they know.

I am of marginal intellect, and will soon reach my sell-by date. I am under no illusions of my grandeur or intelligence. I am just me.

I am ready to go anytime He wants.

[Behold]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

One of many sources. Yeshua and the apostles would have had this as their main source.

I see you are getting personal. This is against the TOS. However, I am British by birth and American by Naturalization. Born as ADAMS. That is all you need to know.

Your post might be reported, but I prefer open and honest discourse, rather than name calling.

I do not reject the canon of scripture. I also do not accept the totalitarian view of 'the church' when it encroaches on a person's personal understanding. We have had far too much totalitarian history in the church at large.

 

Am i getting personal?

You feel this because i asked you about you name?   You feel that i am "name calling" because i asked you about your name, or your point of origin (birth) or mentioned that your proof texts are probably occult or the Septuagint or worse??

Here let me make you feel better.    My name is LARRY.   I was born in the USA.    I am a BIBLE BELIEVING BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN for many years.  I do not qualify myself as anything other then  a Citizen of Heaven, blood bought by the Grace of God Himself.  I do not respond to the question "are you a Christian" by naming my denomination.  I am seminary trained. I am trained in manuscript evidence. I have worked for many years in several ministries, including Teaching, Preaching, Music Ministry, and im an EVANGELIST/Teacher by "call".  I have a home in the USA and in ISRAEL.  

If you need more info, Justin,  feel free to ask, as im not here to HIDE BEHIND A MASK OF FALSE PRETENSE......!

So.....None of what i have said to you, about what you are doing here.... is really getting personal, nor is it a personal attack.

Im strictly abiding by the rules here, according to the TOS ,  by speaking about your reason for being here and your underlying source material.

You are not here on this Thread lifting up Jesus, or Giving Praise to God.  You are not here representing the Cross on this Thread, nor are you teaching the doctrine of Paul as found in any Greek Text ever created since 2AD.  So, the TOS of the WCF allows me the right to  continue to write about  and expose what you are doing, (for the sake of the real believer's here) as often as you keep on trying to confuse them.

Clear ?

You are here trying to confuse real believers with your theology that is not based on the  Canon of Scripture.   See, Justin,  its one thing to try to offer someone a point of view or some ideas, but its a different ballpark to try to insinuate by these ideas or theology that the Bible or 1800 yrs of previous Greek Manuscript interpretation that is accepted by all Churches that use a "Holy Bible", is, according to you a mass of errors , something that we need to set aside as we all have it all wrong and YOU have it right.

So, none of that is personal...... Its just reality.  Its what you are doing, and im here writing about it,  because of what you are doing, here.

You dont have to like it, and i dont have to like you being here doing what you are trying to do, Justin.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Behold

[Justin Adams]

11 minutes ago, Behold said:

I am seminary trained.

That speaks to me, so I will henceforth not say much.

"You are here trying to confuse real believers with your theology that is not based on the  Canon of Scripture."

Everything I say is in the canon. If you do not understand Psalm 82, 78 or Deut 32 or Is 66, then go and study it well since you are a "scholar".

Since you understand so much, check out MONOGENES and its faulty transliteration/translation...