BibleGuy Posted December 10, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Alive said: Bible Guy---you are surely the most single minded individual I have ever witnessed. I once had a tape deck that I could set on 'repeat'. The may have gotten the idea from you. By all means---don't hit the 'stop' button. The earth might stop spinning. Haha! Glad you appreciate my repetition.... :-) Better to be single-minded in love for Torah (Ps. 119:113), rather than double-minded and worthy of hate (Ps.119:113). By the way, Paul applies this Psalm to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16). And, it's ok to repeat basic truths....especially since our Christian establishment has opposed them for the better part of the past 2000 years.... It takes some people a LONG TIME to break free of the bogus theology they've inherited (Jer.16:19). But don't worry, there will come a time when we will no longer call the Torah a "strange thing" (Hos.8:12). We WILL again obey it all (Dt.30:1-8). blessings..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 10, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2019 26 minutes ago, TheBlade said: Forgive me if I cut in I start to get concerned when scripture is used then something is added to it that is not there. For me Christ has always been. I have never heard Him refer to Himself as the Torah but ok. I think for some when they hear Torah means only the 5 books. Yet the NT is the word also. That word became flesh. We got to see the glory of God with us. Israel knows about this "GLORY" now among us...THATS what matters. For me Christ already died and rose. Some of those Jewish people that were saved would sin and try to go back and offer a sacrifice for that sin. God through Paul told them.. can Christ die again? There is no more sacrifice for sin. It puts Christ to open shame if they did that. I did also read "I better not here".. ok.. who are you? You will here it from others so.. love them show them " What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Ever wonder before Christ ever came. Were the people as we are now? What did they have "written on their hearts"? Same as we do now? Was the Holy Spirit going around convicting the world of sin? I do remember a Prophet asking "and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?" How did they know NOT to sin? My point is there was a reason for the LAW as I understand it and I can be wrong As Paul said I had not known sin but by the Law. Anyway.., just my thoughts. Please remember .. its just text and JESUS is lord! Let give HIM the Father all the glory and praise! In Yeshuas name. " I have never heard Him refer to Himself as the Torah but ok." Yes, it's not familiar to conventional Christendom....but hey, neither is sound theology! "I think for some when they hear Torah means only the 5 books." Yes, but I identity the written Torah of Moses as: Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. I rather doubt Moses is the original author of all the material in Genesis. "Yet the NT is the word also. That word became flesh." Yes....although Torah is still foundational.... "God through Paul told them.. can Christ die again? There is no more sacrifice for sin. It puts Christ to open shame if they did that." Well, be careful! Paul condoned a sacrifice-laden vow to prove he "walks orderly according to the law" (Ac.21), thus including sacrifices. And, Jesus comes to restore those very sacrifices (Mal.3:4). Many prophecies confirm RESTORATION of future Levitical sacrifices (Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Is.66;Jer.33;Zec.6;Eze.40-47;etc.) Paul even applies Psalms to us (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16), and Psalms require proper animal sacrifices (e.g., Ps. 51:19). Yes, ONLY the Blood takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7)....but that's not an excuse to ignore our obligation to perform sacrifices, when we can. After all, Jesus desires sacrifices for people of all nations (Mk.11:17 cites Is.56:7). Jesus commands sacrifices (Mt.5:24). "JESUS is lord! Let give HIM the Father all the glory and praise! In Yeshuas name." amen! blessings... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 10, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2019 17 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said: I don’t bother reading his “ perverting the Gospel “ Of Grace.....Paul said to distance oneself from such types and that is what I am working on .I use these types as “ springboards” to get the Truth of the Gospel Of Grace out there for Newbies and Lurkers..... True....don't bother looking up the Scriptures I've set before you.... You DON'T want to know! (little reverse psychology never hurt, eh?) blessings... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted December 10, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.88 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2019 How do you Law-Worshippers deal with what Paul said in Hebrews 7: 18 ?....... “ There is a setting aside of the former commandment , because of its weakness and USELESSNESS” . Foolish me— I had been saying for the longest time that the Law was “ beggarly”.....I wish I had known that Paul used a stronger description for your Torah that you put on a pedastal..... it’s “USELESS”. Strong language indeed! If you can’t handle that Truth , as I said earlier— take it up with Paul.... Those with “ ears to hear”, especially those that are new to the Faith or just considering the Christian Faith, get that “ useless” Torah off of the pedestal the Legalists have placed it upon, and replace it with the thing that God wants to see extolled .....the thing that is so important to Him, He is going to judge your Eternal Fate by it— The Gospel ! Read all about it in 1Cor15:1-4......Add to it or refuse to rest in it and you could jeopardize your Salvation......let others obsess about the Torah .....it will be as useless on Judgement Day as it was when Paul poor-mouthed it. NOTHING but the Blood...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 11, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said: How do you Law-Worshippers deal with what Paul said in Hebrews 7: 18 ?....... “ There is a setting aside of the former commandment , because of its weakness and USELESSNESS” . Foolish me— I had been saying for the longest time that the Law was “ beggarly”.....I wish I had known that Paul used a stronger description for your Torah that you put on a pedastal..... it’s “USELESS”. Strong language indeed! If you can’t handle that Truth , as I said earlier— take it up with Paul.... Those with “ ears to hear”, especially those that are new to the Faith or just considering the Christian Faith,get that “ useless” Torah off of the pedestal th e Legalists have placed it upon, and replace it with the thing that God wants to see extolled .....the thing that is so important to Him, He is going to judge your Eternal Fate by it— The Gospel ! Read all about it in 1Cor15:1-4......Add to it or refuse to rest in it and you could jeopardize your Salvation......let others obsess about the Torah .....it will be as useless on Judgement Day as it was when Paul poor-mouthed it. NOTHING but the Blood...... "How do you Law-Worshippers deal with what Paul said in Hebrews 7: 18 ?" YOU have also confessed to me (elsewhere in these forums) that it's good to obey Torah.... But anyway, "Law-Worshipper?" Well, Paul REQUIRES the Psalms (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16) which entail PRAISING TORAH (Ps.56:4,10)....so it's OK to praise Torah. And, the CONTEXT of Heb.7:18 is the MELCHIZEDEK priesthood..... So OF COURSE we see Jesus passing over Levitical Priesthood rules, in favor of Melchizedek Priesthood rules....WHY? Because Levitical Torah is terminated? NO! Rather, because Jesus is NOT a Levite! So OF COURSE Jesus passes over the former Levitical Priesthood commands and sets them aside for His purpose of permanently taking our sins away via His Melchizedek Priesthood duties. Agreed! And Jesus comes to RESTORE those very Levitical sacrificial activities "as in the days of OLD, as in former years" (Mal.3:4).... And Jesus wants Levitical sacrifices for people of ALL nations (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17). Jesus COMMANDS Levitical sacrifices (Mt.5:24). Of COURSE the Levitical sacrifices are "weak" and "useless" for the purpose of taking sins away....Remember? The blood of animals NEVER took sins away (Heb.10:4).... Levitical sacrifices merely ATONE/COVER for sins....NOT take them away. Are Levtical sacrifices thus terminated? Of course not! They CONTINUE to function as an ONGOING shadow (PRESENT tense in reference to the ongoing shadow-function in Heb.10:1...also Col.2:17). Sure, the Messiah's sacrifice is BETTER because it's the once-for-all sacrifice that takes away ALL sins..... But the SAME MESSIAH requires sacrifices (Is.56:7 cited at Mk.11:17;Mt.5:24;Mt.5:19+28:19-20;Mal.3:4)...and the prophets AGREE God desires the RETURN of Levitical sacrifices for us (Dt.30:1-8;Jer.33;Is.66;Eze.40-47;Zec.6) and even for people from ALL NATIONS (Zec.14). The shadow-function of sacrifices CONTINUES to point to the once-for-all sacrifice of the Messiah. That's why Paul condoned sacrifices (Ac.21) along with THOUSANDS of Christians (Ac.21:20) and along with ANIMAL-SACRIFICING CHRISTIAN PRIESTS! (Ac.6:7) "Foolish me— I had been saying for the longest time that the Law was “ beggarly”" BEGGARLY? Don't be silly! Gal.4:9-10 refers to PAGAN celebrations....NOT the Torah moedim! Remember? Paul COMMANDS Pesach (1Cor.5:7-8)....Would Paul require something "beggarly"? Of course not! "I wish I had known that Paul used a stronger description for your Torah that you put on a pedastal." OOPS! I just proved that "beggarly" does NOT refer to Torah...try again! "it’s “USELESS”. Strong language indeed!" Of COURSE it's useless to have faith without works (Jas.2:24)....or law without faith (Gal.5:4-5). Thus Paul requires BOTH! Justification by TORAH (Rom.2:13) AND Faith (Rom.5:1). BOTH. TOGETHER. "If you can’t handle that Truth , as I said earlier— take it up with Paul...." Ok! Paul requires that you REJOICE in the TRUTH (1Cor.13:6); TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142). So REJOICE in Torah (not oppose it!) Paul applies Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16)....Psalms require TORAH (Ps.1;19;119)...so OBEY Torah! Paul says Torah is GOOD (Rom.7:12). DO GOOD (Gal.6:1) thus entails OBEY TORAH. Paul says Torah is HOLY (Rom.7:12). So be holy, and OBEY Torah! Paul says Torah is righteous (Rom7:12). So DO righteousness in obedience to Torah! (2Ti.3:16) Paul says Torah is SPIRITUAL (Rom.7:14). So seek and desire the SPIRITUAL entails OBEYING TORAH (1Cor.14:1). Paul says he SERVES TORAH (Rom.7:25). So imitate Paul (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9) and SERVE (not oppose!) Torah. Paul says the Spirit is opposed to the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience; so the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah! So OBEY! Paul says the New Covenant includes Torah-obedience "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27). So OBEY! Paul AFFIRMS the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16). Paul AFFIRMS the legitimacy of Torah-obedient GENTILES (Rom.2:27). Paul says you are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12)....Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4). Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) is the very word of faith which Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8)...so OBEY! And on and on and on.... Thanks for bringing up Paul.... These are encouraging words.... "Those with “ ears to hear”, especially those that are new to the Faith or just considering the Christian Faith, get that “ useless” Torah off of the pedestal the Legalists have placed it upon," AGREED! Torah is USELESS if you obey it without faith.....excellent point. AND, those with EARS TO HEAR are those who RETURN (Heb. "שׁוּב", Is.6:10) to God. And those who "שׁוּב" are those who OBEY TORAH (e.g., see "שׁוּב" in Dt. 30:1-8). So we agree again! We must have EARS TO HEAR...which means we should OBEY TORAH.... After all, Jesus requires Torah (Mt.5:19)....why would you disobey Him? Let's HEAR and OBEY His words.... "get that “ useless” Torah off of the pedestal th e Legalists have placed it upon" Agreed again! STAY AWAY from legalists....because legalists require salvation by works (without faith)...and that's REALLY bad....as Paul routinely reminded us. "replace it with the thing that God wants to see extolled " Replace Torah? Don't be silly! Jesus shed His VERY BLOOD to inaugurate the New Covenant (Lk.22:20) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33:Heb.8:10;10:16). Torah is not replaced, buddy! "He is going to judge your Eternal Fate by it" Eternal life? Ah yes....OBEY TORAH and you will have it (Lk.10:25-28). Jesus was not lying. " The Gospel ! Read all about it in 1Cor15:1-4" Ok! We are saved IF WE HOLD FAST THE WORD PAUL PREACHED (1Cor.15:2)....and Paul's word of faith is TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 10:14 at Rom.10:8). GOOD point. "Add to it or refuse to rest in it and you could jeopardize your Salvation" AWESOME point! DO NOT subtract from (or add to) the Torah-obedient Gospel of salvation preached by Paul. "let others obsess about the Torah" Obsess? Why would you want that? I'm just emphasizing what you refuse to acknowledge in Scripture...Paul REQUIRES that I use Torah to rebuke you (2Ti.3:16). "it will be as useless on Judgement Day as it was when Paul poor-mouthed it." True....Torah without faith will be TOTALLY USELESS on Judgement Day, as Paul agrees. Good point. "NOTHING but the Blood......" Rather, Justification by the BLOOD (Rom.5:9) AND FAITH (Rom.5:1) AND GRACE (Rom.3:24) AND TORAH (Rom.2:13) AND WORKS (Jas.2:24) and the SPIRIT (1Cor.6:11) AND the Name of Christ (1Cor.6:11). ALL. TOGETHER. The "blood alone" theology of justification is clearly FALSE....as I just showed (given Rom.2:13;3:24;5:1,9;1Cor.6:11;Jas.2:24). Sure, ONLY the blood removes our sins (1Jn.1:7)....but justification by the BLOOD occurs IN CONJUNCTION WITH faith, grace, Torah, works, Spirit, Christ's name (as I just cited from Scripture). Now...WHATEVER YOU DO....DO NOT look up the Scriptures I've just cited. You DON'T want to know.... :-) blessings... Edited December 11, 2019 by BibleGuy typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted December 11, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2019 22 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: The "blood alone" theology of justification is clearly FALSE.. Tell that to Jesus, who shed His Blood, and ONLY this Blood is Accepted by God as our redemption, according to God..... but not according to you. So, you are denying the Blood of Jesus as the ATONEMENT, ......on a Christian forum, while ranting about the Torah at 10,000 words a minute. Be glad im not a Mod here. And im so glad that so many here, can see you and your heresy clearly, as the lie that you are teaching that i just QUOTED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 11, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, Behold said: Tell that to Jesus, who shed His Blood, and ONLY this Blood is Accepted by God as our redemption, according to God..... but not according to you. So, you are denying the Blood of Jesus as the ATONEMENT, ......on a Christian forum, while ranting about the Torah at 10,000 words a minute. Be glad im not a Mod here. And im so glad that so many here, can see you and your heresy clearly, as the lie that you are teaching that i just QUOTED. Dear friend, you misunderstand my words. Read more carefully! ONLY the blood of Jesus takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7). AGREED! BUT! JUSTIFICATION is not by "blood alone"..... Remember? I quoted the SCRIPTURES which prove that JUSTIFICATION is by AT LEAST SEVEN ELEMENTS! BLOOD (Rom.5:9) FAITH (Rom.5:1) GRACE (Rom.3:24) LAW (Rom.2:13) WORKS (Jas.2:24) SPIRIT (1Cor.6:11) CHRIST'S NAME (1Cor.6:11) ALL. TOGETHER. Justified by the "blood alone"? NO! I just proved we are justified by BLOOD+FAITH+GRACE+LAW+WORKS+SPIRIT+CHRIST'S NAME It's just Scripture, buddy. You can't dispute it. Well ok, you can disagree if you want.... But why would you oppose Rom.5:1? Rom.3:24? Rom.2:13? Jas.2:24? 1Cor.6:11? That makes no sense to me. Because I'm a BIBLE GUY.... I accept ALL BIBLE.....not just parts here-and-there.... SURE, Rom.5:9 is TRUE! But so is Rom.5:1, Rom.3:24, Rom.2:13, Jas.2:24, and 1Cor.6:11. ALL. TOGETHER. I trust we agree now. blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted December 11, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: Dear friend, you misunderstand my words. I quoted you. Do you understand this? I didnt misunderstand you, and i didn't misquote you, and neither did Yeshua misunderstand you. Let me quote you again... as i dont want the Mods or the Members to miss it. -- 1 hour ago, BibleGuy said: The "blood alone" theology of justification is clearly FALSE.. 1 hour ago, BibleGuy said: The "blood alone" theology of justification is clearly FALSE.. Edited December 11, 2019 by Behold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 11, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, Behold said: I quoted you. Do you understand this? I didnt misunderstand you, and i didn't misquote you, and neither did Yeshua misunderstand you. Let me quote you again... as i dont want the Mods or the Members to miss it. -- 1 hour ago, BibleGuy said: The "blood alone" theology of justification is clearly FALSE.. 1 hour ago, BibleGuy said: The "blood alone" theology of justification is clearly FALSE.. Hi there! I ALREADY REPEATEDLY stated that the Blood takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7).....not law without faith....not works without faith....etc.... So, thanks for sharing your ongoing concern....please note the following...... The CONTEXT confirms that I ACCEPT Rom.5:9, just like you do. Shall we thus IGNORE everything else in the Bible about justification? Of course not. Thus, Rom.5:1 is ALSO true. Rom.3:24 is ALSO true. Jas. 2:24 is ALSO true. 1Cor.6:11 is ALSO true. Rom.2:13 is ALSO true. ALL. TOGETHER. We don't just read Rom.5:9 and then IGNORE everything else about justification in the Bible. Rather, we use ALL Scripture to inform our theology. That's what Bible people do. Do you accept Rom.5:1? Then it's not "blood alone"...but it's Blood AND Faith! Do you accept Rom.3:24? Then it's not "blood alone", but now it's blood AND faith AND grace! See the point? We don't just read Rom.5:9 and then IGNORE everything else in the Bible about justification.... That's NOT how systematic theology works. blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrection Priest Posted December 11, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 467 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 153 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/20/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2019 23 hours ago, BibleGuy said: And, Jesus comes to restore those very sacrifices (Mal.3:4). Many prophecies confirm RESTORATION of future Levitical sacrifices (Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Is.66;Jer.33;Zec.6;Eze.40-47;etc.) And how do you know that every part of "the law" (the 5 books) will remain exactly the same in the age to come? Is it not possible that some of those commands were given for that time, in that Ancient Middle Eastern culture, for people of a certain level of moral maturity? You've only been focused on the animal sacrifices, but there were many other commands. Only circumcised males could serve as priests. (Under the "New Covenant" "there is neither male nor female", and ALL THOSE raised first will become "priests of God and of Christ".) Also many of the civic laws or war commands seem rather cruel or arcane today, though in that culture, at that time, they made sense. Kill every Amalekite. OR "Kill everything that breathes." You are not to trim the "edges of your beard". (Tell me BibleGuy. Do you have a full beard?) Any childless widow has to marry her brother-in-law to keep property in the family. Any woman on her menses must be segregated away from other people. (Do you have a separate room for menstruating females?) A women who could not cry out loud enough to be heard while being raped must marry her rapist. He could never divorce her. A woman could not divorce a man. Female war captives could be kept as slaves or forced to marry their captors. Non-Hebrew slaves could be kept forever and be passed down as "property". NOTE: In the South, many ministers preached slavery from the OT. People with skin conditions must be examined by priests and possibly segregated after examination. Etc Etc Etc I'm just wondering. Were there some commands given by "the LORD" through Moses, that were given for that ancient culture, that would NOT be considered applicable to our time? And is it not possible that the nature of "sacrifices" has "been changed" along with "the priesthood"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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