CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE vs. JEWISH TRADITION

[BibleGuy]

35 minutes ago, nzkev said:

I read jn 1:14 and would like to discuss, Just So I know I understand you correctly you are saying that you think Jesus is the Torah?

Obviously Jesus is not a mere BOOK....but hey....Jn.1:14 confirms TORAH became JESUS....so we MUST account for this consideration in our theology.

And sure enough, we can see that JESUS IS TORAH in the following senses:

The Torah points to Jesus (Dt.18:15).

Jesus is the SUBSTANCE of Torah (Col.2:17).

Jesus PERSONIFIES or EMBODIES Torah (Jn.1:14).

Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

Jesus is the way (Jn.14:6)....TORAH is God's way (1Ki.2:3).

Jesus is the truth (Jn.14:6)....TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142).

Jesus is the life (Jn.14:6)....TORAH-OBEDIENCE assures life (Lk.10:25-28;Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3,30:15-19;32:47).

Jesus' words are SPIRIT (Jn.6:63)...so TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19) is foundational to the Holy Spirit of Christ.  And sure enough, the Spirit testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16) in the New Covenant inaugurated in Christ's blood (Lk.22:20).

Jesus is the light (Jn.8:12)....TORAH is the light (Ps.119:105).

Jesus is the bread of life (Jn.6:48)....TORAH is the bread of life (Dt. 8:3;Mt.4:4).

TORAH is the word of God (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.).....JESUS is the word of God (Jn.1:14-17).

Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28)....Jesus is sufficient for eternal life (Jn.3:36).

Jesus is the DOOR (Jn.10:7) for the sheep.  Torah is given to the sheep through the DOOR (Ex.33:10-11) to Moses for the Sheep of Israel.

We Israelites are like sheep who are shepherded in Torah (Nu.27:17).  As Israelites, Jesus is our Shepherd (Jn.1:14) who shepherds us in Torah (Mt.5:19).

 

Things like that.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

41 minutes ago, Sonshine said:

@BibleGuy

Remember that we’re talking about an Old Covenant and a New Covenant.  

Hebrews 8:13 King James Version (KJV)

¹³ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Remember the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the New Covenant ("תּוֹרָה", Jer.31:33)....otherwise Jeremiah is a false prophet (given Dt.13:1-5).....

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

WRONG!  The Torah is NOT SIN (Rom.7:7).

 

There are TWO TORAHS:

TORAH#1: The Torah of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:15-19)

TORAH#2: The Torah of righteous obedience and life (Dt.30:15-19)

Rom. 8:2 merely proves that Paul opposes TORAH #1.

Paul REQUIRES Torah #2!  (2Ti.3:16).

In fact, that SAME CHAPTER has Paul stating that the Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh opposes Torah (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience; so the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah!

Paul says Torah-obedience (Dt.30:14) IS the word of faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Paul AFFIRMS the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33).

Paul even condones a sacrifice-laden vow to prove he "walks orderly according to the law" (Ac.21); thus, you should likewise imitate this Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

 

"You Begin with this wrong foundational assumption which throws the rest of your theology off"

Was Jesus' theology "off"?  (Mt.5:19)

 

"understand the full Truth of the Gospel"

TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142).  PAUL applies this Psalm to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

The GOSPEL is the word preached by Paul....which includes TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"what it means to Continue in the Faith,"

FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138).

 

"Sanctified By the Spirit "

The SPIRIT testifies we obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16), even all TORAH ORDINANCES (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

After all, the Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh opposes Torah (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience; so the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah!

 

"into Holiness"

Be HOLY means OBEY TORAH (1Pe.1:16 applies Lev. 11 to you!)

 

"not of our own works and effort but of yielding to His Work in us and Submitting ourselves to the Law of the Spirit of Life. "

Yes!  And we SERVE IN THE SPIRIT! (Rom.7:6).......serve what?  TORAH! (Rom.7:25)

 

"You need to correct this in your theology"

Do we need to correct Jesus? (Mt.5:19)

 

" the Whole Word of God will come alive including the Law and the Prophets and the New Testament writings."

We LIVE (Mt.4:4) because we OBEY TORAH (Dt. 8:3 refers to TORAH).

Jesus was not joking (Lk.10:25-28).

 

And look what happens to those who OPPOSE Torah (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).  DON'T go there!

 

blessings...

 

 

Folks I got a serious and direly needed thing to say .  IF ANYONE is accusing the LAW as BEING SIN .  THEY ARE SAYING THAT GOD HIMSELF was capable

OF SIN .  HE GAVE THE LAW folks .  HE GAVE THE LAW .     I better never hear one person EVER say again that what GOD gave to moses WAS SIN .

NEVER EVER ,   EVER once again .   Folks been listening to way too many dead end preachers . 

[frienduff thaylorde]

23 hours ago, turtletwo said:

Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. All the animal sacrifices in scripture simply pointed to His.) This is a poem I wrote Him.

 

The Sacrifice, The Highest Price (A Prayer To The Lamb Of God)

 

Oh Lamb of God, so perfect

Who deserved man's adoration

Instead you received mockery

And cruel degradation

 

They stripped You of all clothing

They whipped You violently

They put You on a splintered cross

To die for such as me

 

I marvel at Your anguish

Your beyond words agony

I'm grateful for Your Blood that flowed

Upon that wretched tree

 

Without it, there would be no hope

No way I could atone

The sacrifice, the highest price

Was paid by You alone

 

 

 

•  

Here we go folks .    Lets EYE THIS AGAIN . 

[BibleGuy]

1 hour ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Acts Ctp 21:  "James and all the elders" told Paul to offer sacrifice and pay for the sacrifices of the other men who had taken the Nazarite Vow, "so that all those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law." 

So Paul acted his part as a Jew, in order to reach Jews.  1 Corinthians 9:20 "And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; (1Co 9:20 NAS)

 

VERSE 25:  "But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from [eating] blood, from things strangled and from sexual immorality." 

 

It was obviously NOT a sin for Gentile converts NOT to offer sacrifices.  In fact, they were told NOT TO. 

It was NOT even a sin for believing Jews NOT to offer sacrifices.  Paul stayed away for some 14 years.  He even ate meat offered to idols, explaining that the idols couldn't change the food.  Everything in the markets of pagan cities was presented to idols before being sold (except the vegetables).  Paul did not tell folks to eat only vegetables.  He said that some ate only vegetables, and that mature believers should not do anything to cause a brother to stumble or doubt. 

And it was NOT a sin for believing Jews to offer sacrifices.  The LORD never directly told them to stop.  He just allowed that Temple to be destroyed, thus making it impossible. 

I don't believe we should hold those believing Jews up as examples for how we should live today, or as examples of what the LORD will do (re: a Temple) in the future.  There WILL be a Temple.  We - the redeemed - may (or may not) be instructed by Christ, to present the blood of dead animals to God.  I personally DO NOT believe that we will. 

The Temple of Jerusalem has been gone for more years than it stood. 

The Tabernacle of old went through so much turmoil after crossing Jordan, that folks back then weren't even sure where they should bring sacrifices, or who should officially be High Priest.  At one time there were two men claiming that office.   By the time of Christ, the office of High Priest was appointed by the Romans (who understood its power).  Annas and his 5 sons + 1 son in law (Ciaphas) had rotated the position among them.  So much for the purity of the priesthood, at that time.  (I'm not saying they were all corrupt.  Many were very devout.  Many believed on Jesus as the Messiah.) 

"So Paul acted his part as a Jew, in order to reach Jews.  1 Corinthians 9:20 "And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; (1Co 9:20 NAS)"

First, it is NEVER STATED in Ac. 21 that the REASON Paul condoned a sacrifice-laden-vow was merely to become 'as a Jew'....that's just your eisegesis again.

Second, Paul REQUIRES all Torah, even for Gentiles (2Ti.3:16)....so OF COURSE Paul condones a vow to prove that Paul "walks orderly according to the law" (Ac.21)....because Paul is simply obeying and teaching all Torah, just as Jesus requires (Mt.5:19;23:34).

Third, you did not account for the very next verse!  1Cor.9:21 confirms Paul is NOT WITHOUT THE TORAH OF GOD....thus Paul UPHOLDS Levitical sacrifices.

Fourth, you did not account for the very next verse again!  1Cor.9:21 confirms Paul is UNDER THE LAW OF CHRIST which is ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS (given Mt.28:19-20), which includes sacrifices.

Fifth, 1Cor. 9:20-21 proves that "not being myself under the law" does not mean "not being myself under the Torah required by Christ"....because then 1Cor.9:20-21 would be self-contradictory!  Thus, "not being myself under the law" does NOT refer to the Torah required by Christ (Mt.5:19), and your argument falls apart, again.

 

"VERSE 25:  "But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from [eating] blood, from things strangled and from sexual immorality." "

Of COURSE Gentiles should observe NO SUCH THING so as to prove they are SAVED (Gr. "σῴζω", Ac. 15:1,11).

After all, we are saved by the grace of Christ (Ac. 15:11), NOT by obeying TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as a condition of salvation (Ac.15:1,11).

But Ac. 15 does NOT state that believing Gentiles should NOT grow in faithful obedience to all Torah AFTER they are saved.

And sure enough, Jesus requires ALL Torah for believing Gentiles (Mt.5:19+28:19-20)....Paul agrees (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

 

"It was obviously NOT a sin for Gentile converts NOT to offer sacrifices."

To the contrary, Jesus DESIRES that people from all nations come to sacrifice (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17).  Let's UPHOLD what Jesus desires!

Again, Jesus applies ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19) to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

IT IS A SIN to disobey Torah (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:24).....so if a Gentile believer is able to offer required sacrifices, then it's a SIN for that believer to not do so.

Of course, we are STILL in diaspora (as we were even 2000 years ago, Jas. 1:1).  Thus, there were (and still are) considerable limitations upon our ability to properly and fully obey all Torah.

But don't worry!  We WILL again obey 100% of ALL Torah....(Dt.30:1-8)....AFTER we return to inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29;Eph.3:6).

Until then, we do what we can.

 

" In fact, they were told NOT TO."

Believing Gentiles were NOT told NOT to partake in sacrificial Torah....

Jesus DESIRES sacrifices from people of all nations (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17; Mt.5:19+28:19-20).

Let's STOP hindering Jesus' desire.

Let's ENCOURAGE people from all nations to partake in sacrifices, when properly possible.....otherwise we're opposing what Jesus desires.

Jesus COMMANDS proper sacrificial offerings (Mt.5:24) for ALL disciples (given Mt.28:19-20).  Let's STOP opposing what Jesus commands.

 

"It was NOT even a sin for believing Jews NOT to offer sacrifices.  Paul stayed away for some 14 years.  "

Of COURSE Torah allows for extended travels....that's NOT a sin!

 

" He even ate meat offered to idols, explaining that the idols couldn't change the food."

There is no Torah command prohibiting consumption of meat which may have been previously offered somewhere to an idol.

 

"Everything in the markets of pagan cities was presented to idols before being sold (except the vegetables).  "

Torah does NOT prohibit consumption of such food.

 

" Paul did not tell folks to eat only vegetables. "

Torah does not require that people eat only vegetables!

 

"He said that some ate only vegetables, and that mature believers should not do anything to cause a brother to stumble or doubt. "

Of course.  We should not use our properly understood requirement to obey all Torah properly as an excuse to be a stumbling block for others who do NOT have proper understanding of correct and full Torah-obedience.

 

"And it was NOT a sin for believing Jews to offer sacrifices.  "

Of course it's NOT sinful to obey Torah!

 

" The LORD never directly told them to stop. "

True.  He told US to CONTINUE (Jn.8:31) in ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19).

 

"He just allowed that Temple to be destroyed, thus making it impossible."

Don't worry!  He will rebuild it again (Zec.6) with sacrifices (Eze.40-47) to fulfill Sabbath (Is.66), and the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), and Sukkot for all nations (Zec.14), when we again return to inherit the land promised to us in 100% obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8), thus including sacrifices.

 

"I don't believe we should hold those believing Jews up as examples for how we should live today"

Hold JESUS as an example.  JESUS walked in obedience to all Torah.  You should too (Lk.6:40;1Jn.2:6).

PAUL obeyed Torah (Ac.21); IMITATE that Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9)

JOHN requires all Torah (1Jn.5:3).

Stephen requires all Torah (Ac.6:10-15).

God requires Torah (Dt.1:3;5:27-33)....God should count for something.....

Torah passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33) so OF COURSE we should obey it!

 

" or as examples of what the LORD will do (re: a Temple) in the future.  "

We have discussed already that He will  rebuild it again (Zec.6) with sacrifices (Eze.40-47) to fulfill Sabbath (Is.66), and the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), and Sukkot for all nations (Zec.14), when we again return to inherit the land promised to us in 100% obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8), thus including sacrifices.

Moses is NOT a false prophet!  

So sacrifices WILL RETURN! (Dt.30:1-8)

 

" There WILL be a Temple.  We - the redeemed - may (or may not) be instructed by Christ, to present the blood of dead animals to God.  I personally DO NOT believe that we will. "

Dt. 30:1-8 PROMISES that 100% of all Torah will again be obeyed....

It's OK to believe Dt. 30:1-8!

It's BAD to disbelieve it.

 

"The Temple of Jerusalem has been gone for more years than it stood. "

And it looks like ALL TORAH will be practiced for TENS OF THOUSANDS of years into the future (given Dt.7:9).

We've SCARCELY BEGUN our history of humanity.

We are VERY EARLY in human history.

We've got a LONG way to go, baby!

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

So Paul disagreed with the Jerusalem elders?  They all said the believing Gentiles should NOT offer sacrifices at the Temple.  See my last post.

Ephesians 5:19 "Sing psalms and hymns and inspired songs among yourselves, singing and chanting to the Lord in your hearts,"  (NJB). 

Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and exhorting one another with all wisdom, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, all with grace in your hearts to God." (NET)

Psalm 51 context: David is pleading for forgiveness.  He has sinned - big time.  He knows the LORD will not accept his sacrifices.  WHEN he repents and WHEN the LORD forgives him, THEN his sacrifices will once again be accepted.  David seems to understand that only the LORD can "create" in him "a clean heart".  It is that heart David longs for - that restoration of relationship with his God. 

We should long for that too.

That Psalm is not predicting or commanding that we should/or ever will (in the future) present dead bulls to the LORD. 

"So Paul disagreed with the Jerusalem elders?  "

Of course Paul agreed.  Ac. 15 does NOT state that believing Gentiles should NOT offer sacrifices at the Temple.

 

"WHEN he repents and WHEN the LORD forgives him, THEN his sacrifices will once again be accepted.  David seems to understand that only the LORD can "create" in him "a clean heart".  It is that heart David longs for - that restoration of relationship with his God. "

Perfect!  Have a proper heart condition AND offer proper sacrifices in accordance with Torah.

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"We should long for that too."

Agreed.

 

"That Psalm is not predicting or commanding that we should/or ever will (in the future) present dead bulls to the LORD. "

Sure it does!  1st-century Christians would discern Eph.5:19 and Col.3:16 as Pauline APPROVAL of the authority and ongoing application of the Psalms to their lives.

So, Eph.5:19 and Col.3:16 apply Torah-sanctioned sacrifices (as in Ps. 51:19) to believers.

And, Paul knows we will inherit the land (Gal.3:29); and of course Paul knows this happens in obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

So, Paul KNOWS that 100% of all Torah will be obeyed in the future....thus Paul KNOWS that Eph.5:19 and Col.3:16 will command future Israelites to partake in Torah-sanctioned sacrifices (as in Ps.51:19).

 

blessings...

 

[Behold]

On 12/7/2019 at 9:13 AM, choir loft said:

Did I attempt to attain credibility?   No.

Did you actually read my words?  No.

I wrote that nobody cares.   So it is and so they do not.  Do I expect you to be impressed?  I do not.  

I don't even expect you to seriously consider church history as the basis of the post modern gospel.

I seriously doubt you studied anything at all of church history, church doctrine or that you understood your own experience - if indeed you aren't misrepresenting that too.  Many false prophets lived and taught in Israel.  Residence and religious articulation do not qualify one as being a servant of the Most High.

Secular pagan influences affected church doctrine from the beginning of the cult (as it was called by Jews and gentiles alike - or weren't you aware of that?).  

The Nicene Creed, for example, was called into existence by the Roman emperor Constantine.  Because Constantine financed the travel and lodging of Christian bishops to the convention site, his influence on matters such as the doctrine of the Trinity (which Paul never spoke of, btw) was considerable.  A fist fight even broke out during the convention between Arias and a bishop of the city of Lycia - Nicholas by name.  Bishop Nicholas was later renamed by American retail interests into the present demigod of holiday commercialism, Santa Claus.  Neither Constantine nor Nicholas deferred to Pauline doctrine with regard to the Trinity.  It's basically a pagan ideology adopted by the church.  

Another major pagan dogma is that of hell, which doesn't exist and isn't mentioned at all by Paul or any other Biblical writer.   Church influences on the doctrine beginning with Augustine are based upon Greek myth and Egyptian religion NOT the Bible.   

Other issues such as evolution, the rapture and the idea of global proselytization prior to the second coming of Christ are all pagan or secularized versions of Christian doctrine NOT found or justified by scripture.  

Christian communion is yet another aberration of scripture.   It's a paganized version of the Jewish seder, celebrated once a year not every week.  The aberrations of church dogma go on and on.  Even slavery global war and the holocaust have been and continue to be justified by the church. Don't dishonor the memory of St. Paul by claiming he backed those obscene ideas.  He did not.

I can go on and argue each item of church doctrine NOT based upon the Bible, but the main point I wish to make here is that the church has abandoned the LAW as the bedrock of salvation.  

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Today anybody and everybody is supposed to be saved regardless of their relationship with Christ.  Doctrinal grace now justifies licentiousness of every imaginable sort, but because the church has abandoned the LAW as a basis for Biblical interpretation the gospel has become a joke.

As are your points - each and every one.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Most of what you wrote is some of the most cultish nonsense ive heard professed by a "master of theology", POV.

Let see what you can't stand.    Its quite a list.   You can't stand the Trinity.  You can't stand Communion.   You say hell does not exist.

Here is what i can say for certain, based on just a few examples i listed.  Whatever your "masters of theology" is, it is not connected to the New Testament.

I could give you credit if you were talking about why a church steeple comes to a point.  Or if you were climbing walls about "Easter" Oester", etc... but you are far far past the fringe.

Amazing to hear that "Christian communion", which is symbolic of the body and blood of Christ, that HE Himself instituted in the upper room, that ive been in....... amazing to hear you say this is pagan trash.

The last time i heard such a personal attack on Christ and His Blood was to read some of the Catholic Doctrine that teach that "if any preach that by Christ's Atonement ALONE, salvation is attained, then let this teacher and this teaching be cursed of God."

Are the mods letting you stay here?

I guess i can wonder about that also.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Behold

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

But it's MORE!  Paul never said it's ONLY A SCHOOLMASTER AND NOTHING MORE.....so until you fix this, your theology will continue to be heretical, and blasphemous to Jesus who requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

Now that You no longer equate Jesus and the Torah, Let's look at your next misconception. We Who teach Grace do not negate The Torah In the least bit, But We fulfill the Torah Through Christ Jesus who fulfilled the requirements on the cross. The only thing we have to do is Rest in HIS finished Work on the Cross. So We No longer offer sacrifices on an alter in the Temple, But we rest on His sacrifice on the cross, "once for all" By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Heb. 10:10-14)

Sanctification comes from Resting in Him and His finished work, Not from fleshly obedience, But the Torah being written Upon the heart, By submitting to the Work of the Holy Ghost in us. Using our power and might to fight sin will always lead to failure, But trusting in the Holy Ghost to sanctify you leads the Law being written on the heart. Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. (zech. 4:6B) That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Cor.2:5) for when I am weak, then am I strong. (2 Cor. 12:10b)

Our strength to obey, and our mind's will to obey are the things we need to get out of the way in order for the Sanctification of the Holy Ghost to begin. In Our weakness is when we overcome, and our righteousness will then exceed that of the Pharisees who keep the letter of The Law, but not the Spirit of the Law. If You can grasp this one distinction you will be well on your way to understanding what it means to Abide in the vine (John 15:1-5), and as Jesus said therein, I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (John 15:5)

Your own strength and will to obey the Law can not lead you to righteousness, But Christ Jesus can and does through the sanctification of the Holy Ghost. 

Now carefully read this prophecy and see its fulfillment here....Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. (Mal. 3:18) 

Notice, Though the Law tells us what is good and Evil, the discernment of righteousness and wickedness is lost to the Jewish People, and this is why they rejected their Messiah, When they are restored, they will once more see the distinction between righteousness and wickedness, which comes not by the Torah, But by the heart that abides in the vine. So For example, Someone keeping the Law who never committed adultery according to the law, may have committed adultery many times in their heart according to the sermon on the mount for lustfully looking upon another man's wife. Or Like David in Psalm 139:22 said he hated his enemies, which was considered a good thing according to the Torah was said of Jesus to Love your enemies, and to bless those who persecute you.... This is the difference between keeping the Torah by your own strength and will, vs the righteousness that comes by the sanctification of the Spirit. The Sooner you get your strength and will out of His Way the sooner he can have his way with you and finish the Work of sanctification in you. 

Once You see this, then all of a sudden the Torah pales in comparison to the One who... worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil. 2:13)

Read Eph. 1:5-14

[Blood Bought 1953]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

Obviously Jesus is not a mere BOOK....but hey....Jn.1:14 confirms TORAH became JESUS....so we MUST account for this consideration in our theology.

And sure enough, we can see that JESUS IS TORAH in the following senses:

The Torah points to Jesus (Dt.18:15).

Jesus is the SUBSTANCE of Torah (Col.2:17).

Jesus PERSONIFIES or EMBODIES Torah (Jn.1:14).

Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

Jesus is the way (Jn.14:6)....TORAH is God's way (1Ki.2:3).

Jesus is the truth (Jn.14:6)....TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142).

Jesus is the life (Jn.14:6)....TORAH-OBEDIENCE assures life (Lk.10:25-28;Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3,30:15-19;32:47).

Jesus' words are SPIRIT (Jn.6:63)...so TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19) is foundational to the Holy Spirit of Christ.  And sure enough, the Spirit testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16) in the New Covenant inaugurated in Christ's blood (Lk.22:20).

Jesus is the light (Jn.8:12)....TORAH is the light (Ps.119:105).

Jesus is the bread of life (Jn.6:48)....TORAH is the bread of life (Dt. 8:3;Mt.4:4).

TORAH is the word of God (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.).....JESUS is the word of God (Jn.1:14-17).

Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28)....Jesus is sufficient for eternal life (Jn.3:36).

Jesus is the DOOR (Jn.10:7) for the sheep.  Torah is given to the sheep through the DOOR (Ex.33:10-11) to Moses for the Sheep of Israel.

We Israelites are like sheep who are shepherded in Torah (Nu.27:17).  As Israelites, Jesus is our Shepherd (Jn.1:14) who shepherds us in Torah (Mt.5:19).

 

Things like that.

 

blessings...

 

 

The Torah sure is a lot of things ! Mainly , it is “ weak” and “ beggarly” and “ had NO POWER TO SAVE”. My biggest desire is to be saved....anybody else out there share in my desire? I thought so. I humbly suggest that we go to where the POWER OF GOD resides- The Gospel Of 1cor15:1-5

Add to that Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing with ANYTHiNG- especially TORAH WORSHIP and  you will “ fall from Grace” and be “ severed from the Cross Of Christ”. REST in the Gospel or God will consider you in a state of “ disobedience and UNBELIEF”. Serious stuff.....don’t put your Salvation in jeopardy by trifling with the Gospel Of Jesus Christ by being a Modern-Day Judaizer .That would be anyone that adds to Grace with Works of the Law or ,or in other words, Works Of The Torah. Grace is what saves—- all the Torah is good For is to  “ shut your mouth up” and show you your NEED for that Grace.The Torah shut my mouth years ago....how about you?

 

 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, Sonshine said:

Jeremiah 31:33 King James Version (KJV)

³³ But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This happens in the future, when Jesus Christ returns at His 2nd coming.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 King James Version (KJV)

13 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

² And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

³ Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

⁴ Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

⁵ And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Okay; Let’s stop and think here. A prophet comes along and performs great miracles right in plain sight, and he tries to lure you into worshiping other gods.  We are not to heed these so-called prophets.  We are to cleave unto God only. ....and He gave us the commandments that we are to follow. This dreamer of lying dreams shall be put to death.

" This happens in the future, when Jesus Christ returns at His 2nd coming. "

Jesus said this IS (not this WILL BE) the New Covenant in His blood (Lk.22:20).

The New Covenant is ALREADY INAUGURATED....

Thus, we properly OBEY the Torah (Jer.31:33) of the New Covenant (Jer.31:33) in which we partake.

We don't go around sinning in violation of Torah. 

Agreed?

 

"He gave us the commandments that we are to follow. This dreamer of lying dreams shall be put to death."

WHY put the false prophet to death?  BECAUSE "he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God"...i.e., he has spoken to turn you to DISOBEY TORAH.

 

CONCLUSION:  ANTI-TORAH PROPHETS are FALSE PROPHETS.

 

Thus, Jer.31:33 MUST entail the SAME Torah of Moses passing into the New Covenant.....otherwise Jeremiah would be a false prophet (given Dt.13:1-5)....and I don't think you want to go there.

So, let's OBEY the Torah of the New Covenant which Jesus ALREADY INAUGURATED for us in His very blood (Lk.22:20).

After all, Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20)...so OF COURSE we should obey!

 

blessings...