The Trouble with Tribulation

[dhchristian]

Just now, Alive said:

No need--I just pulled up those and many more across the old and new.

Lots of cross references in Daniel and Jeremiah as connected to the NT references.

As I have said before, I have not spent time in the past on these things.

I think perhaps, maybe I will---Lord willing.

I have read on this forum in the last weeks---a number of things that seem very strange to me and bear searching out.

At this point, I am inclined to see the Lord coming for us mid-week, but we will see.

Again--I have never really studied it, as my attention has been elsewhere.

That is the best way, Let the Holy Spirit Guide you, and teach you. Just the Word of God, and his teaching. avoid too many commentaries as they often have an agenda or a pet doctrine they are promoting, And let Him teach you. 

God Bless your searching of the scriptures.

[Alive]

28 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

That is the best way, Let the Holy Spirit Guide you, and teach you. Just the Word of God, and his teaching. avoid too many commentaries as they often have an agenda or a pet doctrine they are promoting, And let Him teach you. 

God Bless your searching of the scriptures.

I don't mean it to be critical at all---but the folks here at the forum all have pet doctrines and have scriptures to 'prove' them.

:-)

[dhchristian]

Just now, Alive said:

I don't mean it to be critical at all---but the folks here at the forum all have pet doctrines and have scriptures to 'prove' them.

Yes I agree, and I am not asking anyone to follow mines, I am saying approach the cross And the Word of God with Pauline ignorance and chances are where you end up will be a similar path as I have been on. I Do not have it all figured out, But I do have the basics as my puny mind can comprehend them. What he has shown me is the greatest Work of Art ever written or spoken or understood by man, Words cannot describe it. Even though I cannot communicate what he has shown me very well, I share what he has shown me and that I am able to communicate, because the Word of God and the Revelation of Jesus Christ is so amazing. HE is the Truth! And as John Keats wrote "Beauty is Truth, and Truth Beauty, That is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."

God Bless, And may He be Glorified. 

[Alive]

What do you make of:

Dan. 8:5   And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. ⁶ Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. ⁷ And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand.

Dan. 8:8   Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. ⁹ And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. ¹⁰ And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. ¹¹ He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.

[Justin Adams]

2 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

One thing I've learned over the years is the pre-trib crowd can "make it up as the go" and have no thought of the damage they do to the word of God. 

All the 'trib' positions fall down someplace. Why flog a dead horse anyway? Most eschatology is pretty 'modern' and warps scriptures into all kinds of fantastic shapes.

Dicing and slicing scripture to suit a theory is getting really old. Heaven only knows what the new believers think of all this stuff. Truth is, no one has a bullet-proof system. Maybe they are not meant to. Ever thought of that? One cannot 'prove' future by quoting past visions. The first advent was very cryptic and not understood until hindsight and The Spirit filled in the blanks and made it all understandable. So why expect more of the 'future'? I suggest it will not happen as we think anyway and that all of us will be taken by surprise.

Some 'great' theologians of the past will have to wipe egg off their faces when they meet the Lord. These are the ones that said Israel is done for and can never return...

Edited December 1, 2019 by Justin Adams

[dhchristian]

Just now, Alive said:

What do you make of:

Dan. 8:5   And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. ⁶ Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. ⁷ And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand.

Dan. 8:8   Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. ⁹ And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. ¹⁰ And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. ¹¹ He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.

This Prophecy is explained to Daniel. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. (8:20-21)

So here we see, the two horns are Media and Persia of the Ram, and the Goat is the king of Greece, Alexander.

Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 

The four notable ones were his four generals to whom he divided his conquered kingdom to. 

And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 

This is speaking of Antichus Epiphanes who during the end of the Hellenistic kingdom rose in power.

And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 

He being empowered demonically and shall destroy the Holy People of Israel for 2300 days exactly, which is an accurate fulfillment to the day of his time of abominations. 

And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 

As a type of Antichrist he will magnify himself.... this is the only part of this prophecy that Points to the end time antichrist, because of the mention of the Prince of princes. That being Christ Jesus. 

There is no need for commentaries as this is basic history in most cases. Many eschatology people try to place the 2300 days in the final week of revelation, which In my opinion it does not. The Only thing that might even be close is that Alexander ruled around 336-323 Bc when he dies. Which 2300 years later points to 1967, and 1973 wars in Israel if my math is correct -336+2300=1966 -323+2300=1977 give or take a year because there is no year zero. 

Although, the use of the term Mornings and evenings, to me are specific for days as a time period, Unlike Yowm which is days or can be weeks, or years or decades etc. 

And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. (8:26)

The reason why I leave this fulfillment open is because of the use of Yowm in this verse meaning this prophecy be a double fulfillment. 

That being said, the sanctuary was not cleansed in 1967 or 1973 despite the opportunity to do so. ??

 

 

 

[Alive]

I get that---what is that 'not touch the ground bit'?

[Alive]

@dhchristianMy eyes and head are tired. I have been reading and setting up a study format to begin to look at the scriptures pertaining to the last days.

Thanks to you and others, I have thought to do this. We will see if He sheds any light toward me.

:-)

I suspect, all the specifics will remain unclear, but I have asked the Lord for clarity. Honestly, I have no sense either way at this time.

Thanks again.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

This makes absolutely no sense grammatically in the context of the passage, any child can tell you this. What you are saying is that our rapture is contingent upon our departing coming first this makes no sense.

OF course it does, for it is the intent or the Author. However, preconceptions cloud minds. 

Here is Strong's for APO: HALF the compound word "apostasia."

of separation

of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance

physical, of distance of place

temporal, of distance of time

DH, you have to ask yourself, did Paul know everything there was to know at the time about this word? You know he did - and He chose it. 

Note: THEME of passage is the rapture, which will most certainly be a departing of the church to heaven.

Note: verse 6 through 8 is very clear, the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining is taken out of the way.

Yet, if we back up to verse 3b the man of sin IS revealed. That means some time BEFORE verse 3b the one restraining had to have been "taken out of the way."  The ONLY word you can find in 3a that comes close to something being "taken out of the way," is in the word, apostasia.

YOU CHOOSE:

It can be people departing from the faith.

It can be people departing the planet as in the gathering or rapture.

For the first, there are problems: in is not just a departing, it is THE departing: a very significant one. In Paul's argument, this has to be something recognizable so they can say: "ah! This is Paul was writing about. Now the man of sin can be revealed.  But a question for those that believe it is a falling away from the faith: how in the world would anyone know when ENOUGH had fallen away to know it was THE falling away Paul spoke of?

For the second choice, the departing of the church, IT FITS PAUL'S theme. The other choice does not.

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day [the Day of the Lord] will not come unless the rapture comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Note: there are many many translations that use "Day of the Lord" for the simple fact that some of the Greek manuscripts have "Day of the Lord."  I have always said that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day.

This verse make perfect sense as written here. 

our rapture is contingent upon our departing coming first   You are right, what you wrote makes NO sense. I don't know how you got it.  It is certainly not what Paul wrote.

What really does not make sense is the way the KJV translated it. I cannot comprehend how evil -  a significant falling away (from faith?)  - can restrain the man of sin. It makes far more sense that it is God the Holy Spirit doing the restraining, using the authority of the church.

Edited December 2, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Alive said:

I understand what you guys are saying, now. If this is so and its all based on the meaning of ἀποστασία---then the Church will not see the revealing of the man of perdition. This assuming that the restraining factor is the Church.

Do I have this right?

2Th. 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, ² not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. ³ Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ⁴ who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

2Th. 2:5   Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? ⁶ And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. ⁷ For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. ⁸ And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. ⁹ The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, ¹⁰ and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ¹¹ And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, ¹² that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

YOu have it right! Good job.