Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

As I said before, the signs at the 6th seal are the signs for the DAY, but the signs here in Matthew 24 are the signs for HIS COMING

 

They are the same thing, which is why the two passages mirror each other.  You want to quibble about minor differences like how the sun is darkened or how the moon loses its light, but of course you didn't touch the stars falling from heaven because after all, how many times can that happen, right?  The connection with the fig tree as well, just another one of those weird coincidences I guess.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is not there: but my argument was, IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE! It should be understand, after so much about the book and the seals, it should be understood that after all seals are opened, then the BOOK is opened.

 

Sure it does, if it has anything to do with the trumpets it should.  The reason it isn't mentioned there, is because it doesn't have anything to do with the trumpets because the 7th seal comes at the end as well, and the book needs to be opened for the time of judgement.  At least, that's what John wrote.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Whoever said destruction (complete) has to come at once? I have never suggested that. The 6th seal is the START of the DAy of the Lord. It is a long and extended period of time, and includes the 70th week of Daniel in it.

 

How long do you suspect this takes.

 

Joel 2  Blow a trumpet in Zion;
    sound an alarm on my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
    for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near,
2 a day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
    a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
    nor will be again after them
    through the years of all generations.

3 Fire devours before them,
    and behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them,
    but behind them a desolate wilderness,
    and nothing escapes them.

4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses,
    and like war horses they run.
5 As with the rumbling of chariots,
    they leap on the tops of the mountains,
like the crackling of a flame of fire
    devouring the stubble,
like a powerful army
    drawn up for battle.

6 Before them peoples are in anguish;
    all faces grow pale.
7 Like warriors they charge;
    like soldiers they scale the wall.
They march each on his way;
    they do not swerve from their paths.
8 They do not jostle one another;
    each marches in his path;
they burst through the weapons
    and are not halted.
9 They leap upon the city,
    they run upon the walls,
they climb up into the houses,
    they enter through the windows like a thief.

10 The earth quakes before them;
    the heavens tremble.
The sun and the moon are darkened,
    and the stars withdraw their shining.
11 The Lord utters his voice
    before his army,
for his camp is exceedingly great;
    he who executes his word is powerful.
For the day of the Lord is great and very awesome;
    who can endure it?

 

What is stated above, disproves what you say below.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Joel tells us when the Day of the Lord comes, it will destroy. Of course burning up a 3rd of the trees and all of the green grass is destruction - and it comes right after the start of the Day of His wrath.

 

Like the garden of eden in front of them, but a desolate wilderness is the area they covered, and nothing escapes them.  Again, the difference between the trumpet, and the wrath at the vial are much different, it is a distinction you are not accounting for which is necessary.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I wonder, can I get you to say that it just might be slightly possible - like a 1% chance - that the trumpets are what is written inside the book? Or can you prove by scripture that it cannot be?

 

0% chance, John tells us when the books are opened, and it is after the trumpets are finished.  Most likely it is the book of life, because it makes a lot more sense that this is the book Jesus was required to open, without Him, no eternal life, end of story.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You really amazed me with "the books were opened.

 

Why?  Because my beliefs are found in scripture rather than imagination?

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Trust me in this: the two witnesses have NOTHING to do with the 2nd woe.

 

Not a chance, I am going to trust what is in God's word, which is what John wrote.  You are free to follow your imagination if you want, but I wouldn't expect much company.

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

EXACTLY! Are you catching on? But let me assist here: this places their ARRIVAL and BEGINNING of their testimony just before the midpoint.  They have 1260 days to go. If they START just before the midpoint, then their FINISH must be 1260 days LATER. That takes them to just before the end of the week.

 

The irony of this is, you and I have been debating this topic for years now, and you don't even have the slightest grasp on my position.  I have been telling you this for years and you have been arguing the opposite.  If you spent more time listening than arguing, you might actually realize you are coming over to what I have been telling you all along.  The problem with us agreeing completely is your clinging to a chronology that doesn't exist, and trying to create your own version by extracting the 2 witnesses death from the second woe, 6th trumpet, as written by John.

 

God bless

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, gaviria.christian said:

The rapture happens in the Day of Atonement, for that is when the great shofar is blown, hence "and you Israel, will be gathered one by one, on that day the great shofar will be blown".

Sorry, but Paul's rapture is about the Gentile church of today. Israel  - at least 1/3 of them, will come in later.

[gaviria.christian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but Paul's rapture is about the Gentile church of today. Israel  - at least 1/3 of them, will come in later.

Not so, because according to scripture even the prophet Daniel will participate in the first resurrection of the dead, which happens at the second coming of the Messiah. The gathering of the people of God all happens in one day, which will be a mixture of those under the covenant of Abraham, those under the covenant of Moses, and those under the covenant of the Messiah, which will include Gentiles under the new covenant of the Messiah, who are grafted into Israel, which in all will be, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and 144,000 chosen.

[iamlamad]

25 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

They are the same thing, which is why the two passages mirror each other.  You want to quibble about minor differences like how the sun is darkened or how the moon loses its light, but of course you didn't touch the stars falling from heaven because after all, how many times can that happen, right?  The connection with the fig tree as well, just another one of those weird coincidences I guess.

Sure it does, if it has anything to do with the trumpets it should.  The reason it isn't mentioned there, is because it doesn't have anything to do with the trumpets because the 7th seal comes at the end as well, and the book needs to be opened for the time of judgement.  At least, that's what John wrote.

How long do you suspect this takes.

Joel 2  Blow a trumpet in Zion;
    sound an alarm on my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
    for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near,
2 a day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
    a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
    nor will be again after them
    through the years of all generations.

3 Fire devours before them,
    and behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them,
    but behind them a desolate wilderness,
    and nothing escapes them.

4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses,
    and like war horses they run.
5 As with the rumbling of chariots,
    they leap on the tops of the mountains,
like the crackling of a flame of fire
    devouring the stubble,
like a powerful army
    drawn up for battle.

6 Before them peoples are in anguish;
    all faces grow pale.
7 Like warriors they charge;
    like soldiers they scale the wall.
They march each on his way;
    they do not swerve from their paths.
8 They do not jostle one another;
    each marches in his path;
they burst through the weapons
    and are not halted.
9 They leap upon the city,
    they run upon the walls,
they climb up into the houses,
    they enter through the windows like a thief.

10 The earth quakes before them;
    the heavens tremble.
The sun and the moon are darkened,
    and the stars withdraw their shining.
11 The Lord utters his voice
    before his army,
for his camp is exceedingly great;
    he who executes his word is powerful.
For the day of the Lord is great and very awesome;
    who can endure it?

What is stated above, disproves what you say below.

Like the garden of eden in front of them, but a desolate wilderness is the area they covered, and nothing escapes them.  Again, the difference between the trumpet, and the wrath at the vial are much different, it is a distinction you are not accounting for which is necessary.

0% chance, John tells us when the books are opened, and it is after the trumpets are finished.  Most likely it is the book of life, because it makes a lot more sense that this is the book Jesus was required to open, without Him, no eternal life, end of story.

Why?  Because my beliefs are found in scripture rather than imagination?

Not a chance, I am going to trust what is in God's word, which is what John wrote.  You are free to follow your imagination if you want, but I wouldn't expect much company.

The irony of this is, you and I have been debating this topic for years now, and you don't even have the slightest grasp on my position.  I have been telling you this for years and you have been arguing the opposite.  If you spent more time listening than arguing, you might actually realize you are coming over to what I have been telling you all along.  The problem with us agreeing completely is your clinging to a chronology that doesn't exist, and trying to create your own version by extracting the 2 witnesses death from the second woe, 6th trumpet, as written by John.

God bless

You carry on in what you believe. I will do the same. It is for sure neither of us is going to change our beliefs. We meet up there and by that time really won't care who was right or wrong.  One thing I am sure you will find is that Revelation is very much chronological - as much as possible when there are 5 things going on at one time. 

You think it is my imagination. The truth is, I too trust in His word. The difference is how we read the word. 

Just curious: when you think the 2nd woe ends - the 200 million army of horsemen that kill 1/3 of the people - when does that woe end?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

I imagine we find this in scripture along with your lease agreement right?

As I have stated in regards to your mishandling of scripture in regards to chapter 11 I will repeat myself here.  Rather than accept where John tells you the books are opened you choose to invent things that are not scripture so you can cling to your false chronology belief.  It doesn't hold water, sorry.

God bless

Anyone that imagines the books opened at the great, white throne judgment is the same book with 7 seals is too far off in left field to even consider answering. We are pretty much finished. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

I suggest you read it again, what you should notice is that the trumpets are called judgements, the vials are called wrath.  There is a difference, and it is clear.

Do you think the water in a river that turns to blood is going to care if it was a judgment or wrath that did it? You have to be kidding! 

The difference for some is that the trumpets are 1/3 destruction, but the vials and plagues are total descruction: or did you miss that difference?

Rev 8:8  And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Rev. 16:3  And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Do you see it?  first it is 1/3; then later it is total. 

Oh, and you missed it yet again, BOTH come with His wrath, but the vials are filled with His wrath. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

No, it begins just before the midway point.  I have been telling you this for years now. (The trampling)

No, the 42 months is complete at the end of the week.  It runs at the same time as the 2 witnesses are here, maybe a few days difference, maybe not.  I have been telling you this for years now as well.

No, this ends at His coming, which I have also been telling you for years now.

No, this ends at His coming, which I have also been telling you for years now.

So you are saying that the 42 months of trampling runs parallel to the 1260 days of witnesses - with maybe a few days difference. 

So if the 42 months ends at the end of the week, then the 1260 days of witnessing ends at the end of the week. Just what I have been saying (within a few days). So we agree. Why then have you been disagreeing so hard? 

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

...

What Joel describes in chapter 2 doesn't appear to be something that will take all that long.

 

Joel 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
    a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
    nor will be again after them
    through the years of all generations.

3 Fire devours before them,
    and behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them,
    but behind them a desolate wilderness,
    and nothing escapes them.

4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses,
    and like war horses they run.
5 As with the rumbling of chariots,
    they leap on the tops of the mountains,
like the crackling of a flame of fire
    devouring the stubble,
like a powerful army
    drawn up for battle.

6 Before them peoples are in anguish;
    all faces grow pale.
7 Like warriors they charge;
    like soldiers they scale the wall.
They march each on his way;
    they do not swerve from their paths.

...

Shalom, wingnut-.

Not everything mentioned in the prophets is for today or our future. Some of it was a future for their audience at the time. Some of the prophecies were part historical record. In Joel's case, it's important that we get the FULL record of Joel 2, because there are indicators that we are talking about an army of actual LOCUSTS that descend upon the Land:

Joel 1:1-2:11 (KJV)

1 The word of the LORD that came to Joel (Yow'eel) the son of Pethuel.

2 Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers? 3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.

4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten. (These are all the STAGES of development in the locust.)

5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth. (They got the grapes.)

6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.

8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

9 The meat offering (grain) and the drink offering (wine) is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD'S ministers, mourn.

10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn (kernels) is wasted: the new wine is dried up (no more leaves on the vine), the oil languisheth (got the olive trees, too).

11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.

12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered (they got grapes, figs, pomegranates, apples, too): because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God. 14 Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,

15 "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. 16 Is not the meat (food) cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God? 17 The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered. 18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field. 20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness." (The dried, dead vegetation caught fire, probably from lightning.)

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

This attack by a swarm of locusts darkens the skies and denudes the land of its green plants, but this all happened in Yow'eel's time! This is NOT something to which we must look for a future fulfillment.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

This attack by a swarm of locusts darkens the skies and denudes the land of its green plants, but this all happened in Yow'eel's time! This is NOT something to which we must look for a future fulfillment.

 

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you.  The day of the Lord is not from the past.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, gaviria.christian said:

Not so, because according to scripture even the prophet Daniel will participate in the first resurrection of the dead, which happens at the second coming of the Messiah. The gathering of the people of God all happens in one day, which will be a mixture of those under the covenant of Abraham, those under the covenant of Moses, and those under the covenant of the Messiah, which will include Gentiles under the new covenant of the Messiah, who are grafted into Israel, which in all will be, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and 144,000 chosen.

Sorry, but you are associating the "first" resurrection with a time. God has never set a specific "time" for it. It is for all the righteous at all times: Jesus was the first to partake in that chief or most honorable of resurrections. The Gentile church will be the next "wave." Then the 144,000. Then finally the Old Testament saints - on the last day of their age. It is not first in TIME - it is first in honor.

When Jesus' resurrection was called the "first"fruits, that tells us that later there will be "second"fruits and 3rd and so on. But NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME: Jesus' resurrection came way before the second - which is still future. Therefore I disagree with you.