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The Four Beasts

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The Four Beasts

"The fourth Beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms"……Dan 7:23

"These great Beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth"…..Dan 7:17

From these verses, we see that the four Beasts are both four kingdoms and four kings that arise on the earth.

"Daniel said I was looking in my vision at night and behold the four winds were stirring up the Great Sea"…..Dan 7:2

"The waters which you saw where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues"…..Rev 17:10

So, the sea or waters are the nations, specifically the Gentile nations. In the Old Testament, the Great Sea was the Eastern Mediterranean.

The four winds are four angels or spirits……Of the angels He says, “He makes His angels winds”….Heb 1:7

In combination then, we see that the four spirit beings of God, the four winds of heaven, are stirring up the Gentile nations, specifically those along the eastern Mediterranean Sea. The four Beasts come out of that region.

If we look back at the verse in Dan 7:17, we see that the four Beasts will arise from the earth. When Daniel received this vision in the first year of King Belshazzar, Nebuchadnezzar had been dead ten years. So this verse cannot be talking about him or ancient Babylon. They had already arisen at this point.

The Beasts and the statue in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, all the kingdoms were destroyed at the same time, when the stone smashed into the statue, so they cannot be the same.

"Then the iron the clay the bronze the silver and the gold all together were broken in pieces and became like chaff of the summer threshing floors"….Dan 2:35

Yet, in Dan 7, the first three Beasts were allowed to live on for some time after the destruction of the fourth Beast:

"As I looked, the Beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the Beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time"….Dan 7:11-12

This is a big difference. The four kingdoms cannot be both destroyed at the same time and not destroyed at the same time. So the statue and the Beasts are not the same.

Also, the statue’s belly and thighs of bronze, the Greek Empire, was never divided into four kingdoms. The Diadochi  Wars  divided up the kingdom into several dozen, then five which lasted 50 years, then 3 which remained right up till Rome (200 years). It was never four kingdoms for any significant period of time. And yet, the third beast in Dan 7 has four heads and four wings. This does not compare with the historic Greece that was never divided into four nations.

The four beasts then, are future end times manifestations.

Who are the first three beasts?

The kingdoms of the statue are presented in the exact same order as the four beasts; the one like Babylon first, the one like Persia second, and the one like Greece third.

The word “like” is extremely important and is a key to our understanding. If Babylon is the Lion with eagle’s wings, then the first Beast is like it, but not exactly the same. If the Bear is Persia, then the second beast is like it, but not exactly the same. And so on.

The first Beast is like Babylon; the second Beast is like Persia; and the third Beast is like Greece. They may exist on the same piece of land. And/or, they may exhibit other qualities  similar to their ancient counterparts, meaning they will be like their former empires based on overwhelming character traits referenced in Dan 7.

The first Beast that is like-a-Lion was made to stand up on its feet and was given the mind of a man. In Dan 4, Nebuchadnezzar was cast out to become a Beast for his sin of pride. He spent seven years as a Beast. Ring any bells? We should recognize the similarity between this 7-year period and Daniels 70th week. Will this Beast like-a-Lion become a beast for that same period, the 70th week of Daniel, only to be raised up on its feet and given a man’s civilized mind at the end?

The same thing for the second Beast like-a-Bear; and the third Beast like-a-leopard.

After the first three Beasts make their appearance, we are introduced to the fourth, the terrifying Beast, the one with ten horns:

"After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth Beast, dreadful and terrifying, and extremely strong, and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the Beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns"……Dan 7:7

Look at this verse from Hosea. We see judgment like-a-Lion, like-a-Bear, and like-a-Leopard falling on Israel:

"When they (Israel) had grazed, they became full, they were filled, and their heart was lifted up; therefore, they forgot me. So, I am to them like a Lion; like a Leopard I will lurk beside the way. I will fall upon them like a Bear robbed of her cubs"……Hosea 13:6-8

Let’s now look at Dan 8.

The vision begins with two new and very different animals, a Ram and a Goat.  If God’s purpose of this vision in Dan 8 is to clarify the four Beasts and the rest of Dan 7, adding two more symbols, two different animals, certainly doesn’t make thing clearer.

For things to make sense, these two new animals, the Ram and the Goat, must be different from the four Beasts of Dan 7. They are the precursors of the four Beasts.

Gabriel is commanded by, probably Jesus, someone in the appearance of a man, to make Daniel understand the vision:

"Gabriel, make this man understand the vision"….Dan 8:17

Gabriel then proceeds to tell Daniel “three” times in clear language – not in images or symbols – that the vision of the Ram and the Goat is about the end times, the final indignation, and the appointed time of the end. Could he be any clearer?

Gabriel then proceeded to tell Daniel precisely where the four Beasts would come from. The Ram represents the kings of Media and Persia, whose territory existed essentially where Iran is located today. And the Goat is Yavan, which is the area occupied by Greece and western Turkey today. Gabriel wanted Daniel (and us) to understand that this is a Middle Eastern prophecy.

The Little Horn

The Goat has a single prominent horn. It is a single kingdom with a single leader.  It becomes exceedingly great.  What would happen today if a Middle Eastern power overcomes say, Iran, and became exceedingly great? I think a fair assumption is that the UN or maybe the world’s super powers would break it up. And that’s what we are told will happen in scripture. The Goat kingdom will be divided up into four smaller, weaker kingdoms; into four horns.

It is at this point that the four Beasts enter.  The four Beasts are the four horns of the broken up Goat empire:

First…..each of the four groups relate to a kingdom, a horn and a Beast

Second….the four horns come up toward the four winds of heaven, just as the four Beasts come out of the sea after it is stirred up by these same winds

Third…..this stirring up of the sea is the war between the Ram and the Goat, which is then followed by the breakup of the Goat kingdom

Fourth….arising from one of the horns comes the Little Horn. In Dan 7, the little horn comes up from among the 10 horns. This coming up of the Little Horn occurs at the same place in the account-after the formation of the four kingdoms (horns or Beasts)

Fifth…..If the four horns of the Goat are four of the 10 horns that we read about in Dan 7, then we have an additional similarity. In fact, all 10 horns might be created at this exact same time as the four horns of the Goat.

Sixth…… We see that the exact same process occurs in Dan 8 as in Dan 7. In Dan 7, the Little Horn plucks out three of the original horns by the roots. In Dan 8, we read that the Little Horn becomes exceedingly great towards three directions of the compass – to the south, east and west. This becoming great in three directions is the same process as plucking out three horns

 These are six  reasons why the four Beasts of Dan 7 are the four horns of Dan 8.

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Hey bro! I like this as it falls right into the origin of the beast.

On 10/31/2019 at 11:09 AM, JoeCanada said:

Also, the statue’s belly and thighs of bronze, the Greek Empire, was never divided into four kingdoms. The Diadochi  Wars  divided up the kingdom into several dozen, then five which lasted 50 years, then 3 which remained right up till Rome (200 years). It was never four kingdoms for any significant period of time.

I guess that would depend on how the terms are defined. I have done quite a bit a reading on the subject and there were four main leaders, two of which spent a number of years consolidating thousands of satrapies bring regions under one rule. 

 

On 10/31/2019 at 11:09 AM, JoeCanada said:

And yet, the third beast in Dan 7 has four heads and four wings. This does not compare with the historic Greece that was never divided into four nations.

 

"...the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven."

"And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power."

So it's four notable ones, not only four, just four that rise to some prominence. That happened in Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus and Seleucid.

Then the horn is interpreted as the king of Greece where the goat is the nation. It follows then that the four horns are also kings that stood up for the broken great horn and ruled over four kingdoms. Not only four, just some four who are notable that arose out of the goat and replaced the great horn. We have that as historical record in, again, Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus and Seleucid.

For the record I would say Antigonus was more notable than Lysimachus and it's his name that should go down in history; but as a patriot that wished to consolidate the Grecian empire he was fighting a losing battle.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Hey bro! I like this as it falls right into the origin of the beast.

I guess that would depend on how the terms are defined. I have done quite a bit a reading on the subject and there were four main leaders, two of which spent a number of years consolidating thousands of satrapies bring regions under one rule. 

 

 

"...the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven."

"And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power."

So it's four notable ones, not only four, just four that rise to some prominence. That happened in Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus and Seleucid.

Then the horn is interpreted as the king of Greece where the goat is the nation. It follows then that the four horns are also kings that stood up for the broken great horn and ruled over four kingdoms. Not only four, just some four who are notable that arose out of the goat and replaced the great horn. We have that as historical record in, again, Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus and Seleucid.

For the record I would say Antigonus was more notable than Lysimachus and it's his name that should go down in history; but as a patriot that wished to consolidate the Grecian empire he was fighting a losing battle.

 

 

 

Hi Diaste,

Thanks for the response.

The biggest problem with the historical evidence and applying it to the vision in Daniel 8 is its  inaccuracy. The "large horn that is between his eyes is the first king". How does this apply to Alexander the 3rd?........The 3rd?.....He's not even the first king. He's the 3rd. And he was the 9th ruler.

 With the death of Seleucus, the Diadochi Wars ended. Alexanders empire was split in three - Macedonia, Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire, and these continued for almost 2 centuries.

I agree that Antigonus was a notable general. His battle career lasted from 322-301 BC.....as far as I can figure out.

Here is the big question.

In Daniel 8:27....."Then I Daniel, was exhausted and sick for many days.....I was astounded at the vision"

Why would Daniel be sick for days and astounded at the vision?

If the vision was all about the rise of Alexander the Great, and the splitting up of his kingdom into 4, why would Daniel be astounded and sick for many days after seeing the vision? It doesn't make sense. 

How does the rise of Alex 111 and the breaking up of his kingdom affect Daniels people, the Jews? 

But if the vision is for the end of time, as the Angel Gabriel tells us in three different places....8:17...8:19....8:26, and Daniel is shown the rise of the Beast and the oppression and obliteration of his people, then a person could see why Daniel would be sick for many days and astounded at the vision.

Something to consider.

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Dan chapter 2 vision:  King Neb is told his dream of the image and Daniel is revealed that the head of gold starts with King Neb,

*  and that after Babylon another kingdom will arise (arms and chest of silver)

* after that another kingdom (belly and thighs of brass)

* after that another kingdom (legs of iron)

* after that another kingdom (feet and toes or iron and clay)

Note:  Daniel is not revealed who the other kingdoms "after Babylon" are, so we have to keep reading the rest of the book of Daniel for more clues, because God will reveal to us through his visions.

 

Dan chapter 7 vision:  King Nebuchadnezzar is not in power anymore, but his offspring Belshazzar is in his first year of reign, so Babylon is still ruling.  Daniel is shown four great kings and kingdoms that are to arise, but who they are, is not revealed until we continue reading the book of Daniel.

But hang on.....go back to Dan chapter 5?  Belshazzar saw the writing on the wall, and his kingdom was taken that hour by the Mede's.  King Darius the Mede was the actual king who did this.

So Babylon was taken over by WHO AGAIN?

the MEDE'S,

 

Concerning the image in Dan 2, what comes after the head of Gold?

The arms and chest of silver.

One arm has to be the Mede's and the other arm will be revealed in chapter 8.

In chapter 8, Belshazzar is in his 3RD YEAR OF REIGN when Daniel had this vision.  This proves that the bible is not to be read like any other book with events happening in their chapter order because the whole book jumps back and forth.  Belshazzar already died in chapter 5.  So did Belshazzar suddenly come back to life?  NO.  The visions, as they are given the way God has laid them out will reveal WHO THESE KINGDOM'S ARE on THE IMAGE in Chapter 2.  Each event does not happen in their chapter order.  Each chapter only reveals more clues and it all goes back to the IMAGE...to give a fuller picture.

So chapter 8 shows;

Daniel 8:20   The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

To us now it's history.  but for them it was future.

And there you have it.  The OTHER Arm of silver is PERSIA.

The Mede's conquered Babylon alone, and Persia joined with them later.

The arms of silver are Medo/Persia.  The RAM with 2 HORNS is that same kingdom.  Medo & Persia were together when they were conquered.  One horn belonging to the King of the Mede's and the other horn to the King of Persia.

 

To find out who the CHEST & THIGH'S are in Dan 2 ;

 Daniel 8:21   And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Grecia is the chest & thigh's of Brass.

This is how God is revealing Dan chapter 2.

 

SO BACK TO DAN 7 - who are the 4 kings?

You can figure this out when you realise that DARIUS THE MEDE was the one who conquered BABYLON (Dan 5)

HE IS THE LION.  AND HIS KINGDOM IS OF THE MEDE'S

and what other nation became great shortly after?  THE PERSIANS.

This is the BEAR who arose.  The last king of Persia who would be conquered along with the last king of the Mede's because they are together.

and the LEOPARD IS?......

Daniel 7:6   After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Who conquered MEDO/PERSIA?

Of course it was ALEXANDER, of the GRECIAN EMPIRE.  The leopard and the he goat is him.  They are both the same.  It's so clear by the time you get to Dan chapter 8,

 Daniel 8:21   And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
 Daniel 8:22   Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

The leopard with the 4 wings and 4 heads is the same he goat with the one horn. One king.  Alexander was not conquered, but when he died his 4 generals took over and started their own kingdoms.  This is why the number 4 is mentioned so that we can CONNECT IT.

ALL THIS IS HISTORY, and without Daniel 7 & 8....and 5...we would not be able to solve this and work our way down to the toes, the last kingdom of man.

On 11/1/2019 at 1:09 AM, JoeCanada said:

The Beasts and the statue in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, all the kingdoms were destroyed at the same time, when the stone smashed into the statue, so they cannot be the same.

What was destroyed, was all the ruling kingdoms of man.  The whole system will toppled over and no more at the Coming.

so,

Kingdoms of man destroyed during the days of the 10 toes.  Christ comes.

Kingdoms of man destroyed during the days of the 4th beast when it is in power.  Christ comes.

4th beast has 10 horns.

Rev 13 - Beast has 10 horns with 10 crowns.

10 toes, 10 horns = Same kingdom.  Last kingdom.

Daniel reveals that the 10 TOES is the 4th beast of Dan 7, and Revelation 13 clarifies that the same 10 toes and 4th beast is the kingdom of the 10 horns that the little horn (false prophet) will come out of, during "the latter days of their kingdom", as Daniel spoke.  The latter days is now.  The rest of the beasts that had their lives prolonged, are the rest of the beast's of the earth (nations).  They will still exist coming into the millennium, but under Christ's rule now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sister

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9 hours ago, Sister said:

 

Hi Sister, 

I'll touch on a few points you made.

First........."The leopard with the 4 wings and 4 heads is the same he goat with the one horn. One king.  Alexander was not conquered, but when he died his 4 generals took over and started their own kingdoms.  This is why the number 4 is mentioned so that we can CONNECT IT......ALL THIS IS HISTORY...

The biggest problem with the historical evidence and applying it to the vision in Daniel 8 is its  inaccuracy. The "large horn that is between his eyes is the first king". How does this apply to Alexander the 3rd?........The 3rd?.....He's not even the first king. He's the 3rd. And he was the 9th ruler in the kingdom. Therefore, he is not "the first king".

 With the death of Seleucus, the Diadochi Wars ended. Alexanders empire was split in three - Macedonia, Ptolemaic Egypt, and the Seleucid Empire, and these continued for almost 2 centuries.

Where do the 4 generals come in and start their own kingdom?..........Historical evidence does not support this.

 Second...........       "What was destroyed, was all the ruling kingdoms of man.  The whole system will toppled over and no more at the Coming."

I don't think scripture supports this "whole system" being destroyed or toppled over. Maybe you can show me where that support is.

Dan 2:35 says that..... "the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time"

These metals all represent the land mass of the head of gold silver, bronze, iron and clay......the Middle East, which is the land mass of the fourth and terrible beast. 

"Daniel reveals that the 10 TOES is the 4th beast of Dan 7, and Revelation 13 clarifies that the same 10 toes and 4th beast is the kingdom of the 10 horns that the little horn (false prophet) will come out of"

Where does scripture equate the Little Horn with being the false prophet?

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1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

The biggest problem with the historical evidence and applying it to the vision in Daniel 8 is its  inaccuracy. The "large horn that is between his eyes is the first king". How does this apply to Alexander the 3rd?........The 3rd?.....He's not even the first king. He's the 3rd. And he was the 9th ruler in the kingdom. Therefore, he is not "the first king"

Hi Joe Canada

Alexander was the first king who conquered Medo/Persia.  That notable horn between the goats eyes is him.  This is when his kingdom became great.  He conquered with great speed.  That kingdom was nothing without him.  He is the first king who made this kingdom of Grecia great because it was he who conquered the most powerful kingdom at the time - the Medo/Persian empire.  Alexander's name went down in history and this king got a mention in the bible.  He is the first king of this great empire which is why this goat is depicted with four wings.  With his four generals behind him his kingdom conquered so fast his feet didn't even touch the ground.  He moved with great speed even like a leopard does.  The "first king" of this great kingdom started with Alexander and he was the last.

The leopard also depicts "democracy" of which Greecia invented- that kingdom.  The end time beast's "body" is a democratic one.  Not an Islamic one.

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On 10/31/2019 at 12:09 PM, JoeCanada said:

If we look back at the verse in Dan 7:17, we see that the four Beasts will arise from the earth. When Daniel received this vision in the first year of King Belshazzar, Nebuchadnezzar had been dead ten years. So this verse cannot be talking about him or ancient Babylon. They had already arisen at this point.

 

This is not a relevant point, God can still point to the Original King that arose even if hes dead, and I haven't even tried to study that fact in this context, because it wouldn't matter. God isn't bound by time, we are. I don't even get the point brother, other than to try and shape who the Fourth Beast is or isn't. 

On 10/31/2019 at 12:09 PM, JoeCanada said:

The Beasts and the statue in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, all the kingdoms were destroyed at the same time, when the stone smashed into the statue, so they cannot be the same.

 

And that happens when Jesus Returns and Destroys the Anti-Christ/Beast at Armageddon. Its a future event. In other Words The Seven Headed Beast is a figurative beast that shows 7 Mediterranean Beast Kingdoms, Jesus comes back and Destroys everything ALL the Heads stood for when he defeats the Last Beast by hitting him in the FOOT {10 toes = 10 Kings of the Beast}. Thus the Kingdom of Satan is cast down, the one who ruled all the Kingdoms of all the earth, just like he told Jesus in Luke 4. {All these Kingdoms will be yours if you just worship me}. 

The other Beasts all lived on for a time and a Season, but not this last Beast, he will be cast straight into hell !! But Babylon lived on for a time, Alexander the Great died there. Persia is Iran today, Greece is still a Kingdom and Rome is basically Italy today. They all lived on after they lost Dominion, but the LAST BEAST will not live on once Jesus comes, he will be killed and put into hell at that moment in time. 

On 10/31/2019 at 12:09 PM, JoeCanada said:

The four beasts then, are future end times manifestations.

 

As I show above, they are not end time Beasts, one could say they are ex Beasts {Powers}, all except for Babylon which is no more.

On 10/31/2019 at 12:09 PM, JoeCanada said:

The same thing for the second Beast like-a-Bear; and the third Beast like-a-leopard.

 

Its speaking about Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome.

On 10/31/2019 at 12:09 PM, JoeCanada said:

 These are six  reasons why the four Beasts of Dan 7 are the four horns of Dan 8.

No, the Four are the Generals who held power, there were 5 but only 4 had REAL POWER. A Horn represents POWER as God sees it brother. 

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6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Second...........       "What was destroyed, was all the ruling kingdoms of man.  The whole system will toppled over and no more at the Coming."

I don't think scripture supports this "whole system" being destroyed or toppled over. Maybe you can show me where that support is.

Dan 2:35 says that..... "the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time"

These metals all represent the land mass of the head of gold silver, bronze, iron and clay......the Middle East, which is the land mass of the fourth and terrible beast. 

  

Daniel 2:42   And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Daniel 2:43   And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

  Daniel 2:44   And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

  Daniel 2:45   Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

 

Joe Canada.

The iron, brass, clay, silver and the gold are the kingdoms on the image in Dan 2.  The whole image symbolises great ruling kingdoms one after the other.    After Babylon, those other kingdoms have come and gone.  They don't hold any power at the end, because it's the 10 toes ruling when Christ returns.  The whole image is the system of the jungle where the strong eat the weak. Each kingdom is more terrible than the last. Christ will put a stop to this - for his kingdom is an eternal kingdom and will replace that old system.  Never again will man rule.  Man has shown that absolute power corrupts.  We need someone who is righteous to rule, that can never be corrupted.
 

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On 11/2/2019 at 10:02 AM, JoeCanada said:

Hi Diaste,

Thanks for the response.

The biggest problem with the historical evidence and applying it to the vision in Daniel 8 is its  inaccuracy. The "large horn that is between his eyes is the first king". How does this apply to Alexander the 3rd?........The 3rd?.....He's not even the first king. He's the 3rd. And he was the 9th ruler.

Ok, so if the historical evidence is inaccurate, what do we go off of? If you're calling the histories into question maybe Alexander didn't even defeat the Persians.

Concerning the word 'first' in Dan 8 it doesn't mean 1st in a line of succession in this chapter. "rishon: former, first, chief" If Daniel was speaking to an element of time such as a series of feasts or days then it may mean 1st as in your example. But we see from the passage it's power in question and Daniel is referrring to that authority when he says "Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power." In this instance Daniel records the great horn as preeminent, the head, top dog, if you will.

Even allowing for a lineage or succession 1st in a series would still hold as the only lineage in view here is from the great horn to the four notable ones. Totally valid and changes nothing in my mind about just what is happening.

Further, the interpretation tells us just who this is; The ram is the Medes and Persians and the goat is Greece. The Medes and the Persians were defeated by the Grecian empire under Alexander the Great.

Sort of poetic we call him 'the Great' and scripture calls him 'the great horn'. So the history is accurate as the defeat of the Persian Empire by Alexander is firmly established in history just as foretold by the prophet Daniel.

On 11/2/2019 at 10:02 AM, JoeCanada said:

 With the death of Seleucus, the Diadochi Wars ended. Alexanders empire was split in three - Macedonia, Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire, and these continued for almost 2 centuries.

I agree that Antigonus was a notable general. His battle career lasted from 322-301 BC.....as far as I can figure out.

Except that Lysimachus ruled in Asia Minor after the plot against Antigonus was successful. But it doesn't matter as much as the four notable ones. The idea behind 'malkuwth' is not necessarily a geopolitical entity. It is valid to think of this a reign, royal power, or the concept of royalty. For instance, Al Baghdadi was a king to his followers, wielded royal power, and reigned over land and people. That's valid as 'malkuwth' even if everyone didn't recognize his authority as there were many that did.

So to contend that there were only three rulers when Asia Minor was ruled by Lysimachus, and he was a notable General of Alexander, with royal power over land and people, seems an unlikely contraction.

On 11/2/2019 at 10:02 AM, JoeCanada said:

Here is the big question.

In Daniel 8:27....."Then I Daniel, was exhausted and sick for many days.....I was astounded at the vision"

Why would Daniel be sick for days and astounded at the vision?

If the vision was all about the rise of Alexander the Great, and the splitting up of his kingdom into 4, why would Daniel be astounded and sick for many days after seeing the vision? It doesn't make sense. 

How does the rise of Alex 111 and the breaking up of his kingdom affect Daniels people, the Jews? 

But if the vision is for the end of time, as the Angel Gabriel tells us in three different places....8:17...8:19....8:26, and Daniel is shown the rise of the Beast and the oppression and obliteration of his people, then a person could see why Daniel would be sick for many days and astounded at the vision.

Something to consider.

It doesn't appear that Alexander had anything to do with it but more the totality of the vision that exhausted Daniel. If one highlights all the events he witnessed and the truths revealed it's amazing he didn't die! I have had dreams that left me worn out the next day and none as wide ranging and visually stunning as this vision, not to mention the shocking truths revealed to Daniel. 

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On 11/2/2019 at 9:02 PM, JoeCanada said:

Where do the 4 generals come in and start their own kingdom?..........Historical evidence does not support this.

 When he was asked who should succeed him, Alexander said, “the strongest”, which answer led to his empire being divided between four of his generals: Cassander, Ptolemy, Antigonus, and Seleucus (known as the Diadochi or 'successors').

Lots in this article

Like many other commanders, Lysimachus assumed the title of king in 305 BCE. With the memory of Antigonus’ recent attack fresh in his memory, the king set his expansion sights on Asia Minor. He allied with Seleucus and Cassander against the elderly Antigonus and his son Demetrius at the Battle of Ipsus in 301 BCE; a battle that would bring about both the defeat and death of Antigonus. According to the terms of peace, Lysimachus was rewarded with additional lands in Asia Minor to the south of the Taurus Mountains, Seleucus received Syria, and Cassander’s position was established securely in Macedon and Greece. According to many historians, the battle put an end to any hope of re-establishing Alexander’s empire.

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Since you already agree to the reigns of three kings in Cassander, Ptolemy and Seleucus, you certainly can now agree to the kingship of Lysimachus in Asia Minor. Before aligning with Seleucus and Cassander to defeat Antigonus, Lysimachus held Thrace as a king. He then expanded in to Asia minor with the help of Seleucus and Cassander, further cementing his claim to king with a great deal of land and people.

 

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