Same Arguments, Same Failures

[appy]

This thread is about the bickering currently going on all over the forums between two camps. That are insisting on dragging other people into the fray.

There is a fine line between lovingly correcting a brother/sister, by one who thinks the other is in the wrong. But after a certain point, it is no longer a loving correction. It is then condemnation and abuse, because there are those whose sole goal is to win an argument at all costs. We can lovingly share with others what we believe and that is all. After an opinion has been voiced, it is then up to the recipient to decide what to do with that information. badgering others to believe as you do will cause them to give you a FALSE “I see the light now”. You've ( again, a collective you've) absolutely have gained nothing except entertainment value.

[Alive]

On occasion I have reminded myself "the Lord is listening".

It seems to help.

[Behold]

9 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

 

5. But Paul says…
Come back to me when you can quote more than just Paul.  The Apostle Peter says he can be hard to understand and his words are easy to twist (2 Peter 3:16).  Hopefully you should have more than enough material in the remaining 53 books to support your argument ? 

 

 

You wrote this,....  '""The Apostle Peter says he (paul) can be hard to understand and his words are easy to twist (2 Peter 3:16).  """

And in fact, no version of a New Testament teaches that Pauls words are easy to TWIST.. in this verse...so, you are rewriting the verse, and i would ask that you not do this...   The verse does say that Pauls words - epistle, s can be "hard to understand" (according to Peter), and Peter also says in that  same chapter that Pauls letters, (Epistles) are equal to the TORAH, they are in fact >scripture< So, isn't it something that Peter is referring to Paul's letters,-Epistles, as EQUAL TO the Torah...   at that time.

.  And of course, 2000 yrs later we see that Peter was right...

-------------------

Most people on this forum, or on any American Forum, are gentiles.  Paul is the apostle to the gentiles.  This age we are living is is the "time of the gentiles".   Jesus himself, took Paul, and no other Apostle.....  and literally taught Paul, the "gospel of the grace of God".    So, Anything that you think you know,  tzephanyaku, regarding the gift of righteousness, salvation by grace through faith, or any other aspect of the doctrine of "justification by faith" ALONE,  that came from Jesus, came through Paul... It all comes from Paul who was given this revelation of Grace,  by Christ.    Were it not for Paul, you'd have no understanding of Grace at all as no other Apostle wrote 70% of the New Testament explaining it to you.  Only Paul did this, and its God who decided he would, and that is why Paul is the author of not only all of the Grace Doctrine, but most of the New Testament as well.    If you dont like that, then that would be your problem, as God has already decided that Paul would do it, as you can see in any dime store version of the Bible.

And if you are confused by Paul's doctrine, as you seem to be, by stating you feel confusion  the same as Peter, regarding Pauls teachings... Well, they dont confuse me. They dont confuse many born again here.  But they do confuse a Legalist, and that is why they are always trying to present the Gospel as one part Grace and one part Torah. (Law).

In fact, its no part Torah, as the Torah is the old covenant and Jesus is the Author of a NEW COVENANT, and that is why we have a NEW TESTAMANT..   You do realize this, tzephanyahu ?????    The new covenant is  only The Cross, and being Justified by faith, through the redemption that is found in Christ's blood.

Welcome to the NEW Testament.   Its all about GRACE, and Paul is your teacher.

So, if you want to pin blame, then pin it not on Paul, but on people who are trying to water down and diminish the Blood Atonement, by trying to combine it with works as their Salvation hybrid  God Cursed, Galatians 1:8 Legalism.

Let me give you some advice.  Worry less about being nice to people who try to confuse other real believers  regarding their salvation, and worry mostly about Truth.   

And here is something else Paul said.   He said, "as much as you can, get along with others",, and that means there is a point where the  mind harm being caused real born again believers,  by being too nice to heretics, legalists, on Forums like this, allowing them to continue to LIE,   needs to be confronted and not just embraced.   

Your entire Thread is related to Strife that you find on forums like this, and the solution isn't  getting along with people who are tying to lesson the effect of the Cross by trying to water it down with the Torah, or Law, etc.

You yourself state that this strife is endless. And that is True.   Its endless as long as Satan lives to deny the eternal effect of the Cross, as taught by Legalists who try to combine law and the Cross as Salvation.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Behold

[Wayne222]

5 hours ago, Abdicate said:

The issue is dogma.

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

When people first hear about God the Father they hear it through parents or teachers or preachers. With 41,000 denominations in the "Christian" world, the only thing we have to fall back onto for the truth is the Holy Spirit and the word of God which only He can help us discern. So we jump to the written word of God, but the devil has given us over 150 versions just in English. So which does one choose? See how the devil is obfuscating the truth?

The devil is the enemy but we treat each other as the enemy (to our dogma) and the traditions of men.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

So what are we to do? Keep in the word of God alone and understand Jesus didn't come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. So what does that mean? Before the cross, the law demanded perfection and gave no grace. After the cross, Jesus made a way to give us grace being dead to the law of sin, so that we can live without sin. People still sin, they're lied to that they cannot cease from sin, so they don't bother trying and fail to understand the grace. Hence the requirement to deal with the old man of sin through the spirit and overcome. To be a follower of Christ means to follow Him. Which of the Ten Commandments can a Christian break and still go to heaven? ALL OF THEM! Which of the Ten Commandments can we keep perfectly by following Jesus' example? ALL OF THEM! The Holy Spirit helps our weaknesses due to the old man (the flesh) and gives us the means to overcome. But when we habitually continue in sin, John says we're likely NOT Christians to begin with. Salvation is a gift by faith alone, but a true conversion into a new creature, requires us to strive to not sin any longer as proof of that conversion!

 

What does the word of God say about this?

 

1 John 3:1-10
See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 2:3
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 3:24
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1 John 4:6, 13
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. ... By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

 

Keeping the commandments is not about obtaining salvation, but proof of our 

1 hour ago, Behold said:

You wrote this,....  '""The Apostle Peter says he (paul) can be hard to understand and his words are easy to twist (2 Peter 3:16).  """

And in fact, no version of a New Testament teaches that Pauls words are easy to TWIST.. in this verse...so, you are rewriting the verse, and i would ask that you not do this...   The verse does say that Pauls words - epistle, s can be "hard to understand" (according to Peter), and Peter also says in that  same chapter that Pauls letters, (Epistles) are equal to the TORAH, they are in fact >scripture< So, isn't it something that Peter is referring to Paul's letters,-Epistles, as EQUAL TO the Torah...   at that time.

.  And of course, 2000 yrs later we see that Peter was right...

-------------------

Most people on this forum, or on any American Forum, are gentiles.  Paul is the apostle to the gentiles.  This age we are living is is the "time of the gentiles".   Jesus himself, took Paul, and no other Apostle.....  and literally taught Paul, the "gospel of the grace of God".    So, Anything that you think you know,  tzephanyaku, regarding the gift of righteousness, salvation by grace through faith, or any other aspect of the doctrine of "justification by faith" ALONE,  that came from Jesus, came through Paul... It all comes from Paul who was given this revelation of Grace,  by Christ.    Were it not for Paul, you'd have no understanding of Grace at all as no other Apostle wrote 70% of the New Testament explaining it to you.  Only Paul did this, and its God who decided he would, and that is why Paul is the author of not only all of the Grace Doctrine, but most of the New Testament as well.    If you dont like that, then that would be your problem, as God has already decided that Paul would do it, as you can see in any dime store version of the Bible.

And if you are confused by Paul's doctrine, as you seem to be, by stating you feel confusion  the same as Peter, regarding Pauls teachings... Well, they dont confuse me. They dont confuse many born again here.  But they do confuse a Legalist, and that is why they are always trying to present the Gospel as one part Grace and one part Torah. (Law).

In fact, its no part Torah, as the Torah is the old covenant and Jesus is the Author of a NEW COVENANT, and that is why we have a NEW TESTAMANT..   You do realize this, tzephanyahu ?????    The new covenant is  only The Cross, and being Justified by faith, through the redemption that is found in Christ's blood.

Welcome to the NEW Testament.   Its all about GRACE, and Paul is your teacher.

So, if you want to pin blame, then pin it not on Paul, but on people who are trying to water down and diminish the Blood Atonement, by trying to combine it with works as their Salvation hybrid  God Cursed, Galatians 1:8 Legalism.

Let me give you some advice.  Worry less about being nice to people who try to confuse other real believers  regarding their salvation, and worry mostly about Truth.   

And here is something else Paul said.   He said, "as much as you can, get along with others",, and that means there is a point where the  mind harm being caused real born again believers,  by being too nice to heretics, legalists, on Forums like this, allowing them to continue to LIE,   needs to be confronted and not just embraced.   

Your entire Thread is related to Strife that you find on forums like this, and the solution isn't  getting along with people who are tying to lesson the effect of the Cross by trying to water it down with the Torah, or Law, etc.

You yourself state that this strife is endless. And that is True.   Its endless as long as Satan lives to deny the eternal effect of the Cross, as taught by Legalists who try to combine law and the Cross as Salvation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you. The light will manifest truth. If we dont shed light the truth will either be water down or twisted. It's the blood of jesus that redeems us. Nothing else. We are sanctify by the holy spirit at salvation. We can obey Jesus only after we are born again and already saved. Works then will show we are saved but not the means. We are saved by faith in jesus our righteousness. The law does not save. And we are no longer under the law. We are under grace. We live by grace. We walk in holiness and not in sin. We put on the new man. 

[Behold]

14 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

I agree with you. The light will manifest truth. If we dont shed light the truth will either be water down or twisted. It's the blood of jesus that redeems us. Nothing else. We are sanctify by the holy spirit at salvation. We can obey Jesus only after we are born again and already saved. Works then will show we are saved but not the means. We are saved by faith in jesus our righteousness. The law does not save. And we are no longer under the law. We are under grace. We live by grace. We walk in holiness and not in sin. We put on the new man. 

The law is our Judge that exposes us as Sinners.  So, can that save us?   Its not designed to save.  Only Jesus Saves.   The law is created to show us our UNRIGHTEOUSNESS< and need of God's Righteousness.

You wrote, "we are saved by faith in Jesus our Righteousness", and that is wonderfully, lovingly, amazingly, perfectly, correct.      "Jesus is our Righteousness"...... If only the self righteous could understand this.....

God left Heaven, born of a virgin, died on a cross.   So that the Law can keep you saved?       WHAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

REDEMPTION, is the beginning and the end....... Its not just the start.

The precious blood of Jesus, is not a temporary application of the Forgiveness of your sin.   IT is in fact the replacement for your sin.   And how did this happen?   Because Jesus BECAME your sin, on the Cross, and you became His Righteousness when you were born again.

 

Thank you Jesus.

We give you all the credit Lord.

You alone are the Redeemer.

You alone are our Grace, our Salvation, and our Eternal life.

We will not bow before the law, or before works, or before, liars.

We will only kneel at the Cross where God redeems the Lost.

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Behold

[Wayne222]

41 minutes ago, Behold said:

The law is our Judge that exposes us as Sinners.  So, can that save us?   Its not designed to save.  Only Jesus Saves.   The law is created to show us our UNRIGHTEOUSNESS< and need of God's Righteousness.

You wrote, "we are saved by faith in Jesus our Righteousness", and that is wonderfully, lovingly, amazingly, perfectly, correct.      "Jesus is our Righteousness"...... If only the self righteous could understand this.....

God left Heaven, born of a virgin, died on a cross.   So that the Law can keep you saved?       WHAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

REDEMPTION, is the beginning and the end....... Its not just the start.

The precious blood of Jesus, is not a temporary application of the Forgiveness of your sin.   IT is in fact the replacement for your sin.   And how did this happen?   Because Jesus BECAME your sin, on the Cross, and you became His Righteousness when you were born again.

 

Thank you Jesus.

We give you all the credit Lord.

You alone are the Redeemer.

You alone are our Grace, our Salvation, and our Eternal life.

We will not bow before the law, or before works, or before, liars.

We will only kneel at the Cross where God redeems the Lost.

 

All truth !! But he does not only justify us he sanctified us by the gift of the holy spirit. We are a new creation created for good works. Works does not add to our righteousness and standing before God. But is our life now in christ. Works of love and purity. Peter said be holy for I am holy says God. Jesus freed us from borage to sin. And made us slaves of righteousness.  But not by law. By grace and the blood of the lamb.

[Behold]

1 hour ago, Wayne222 said:

All truth !! But he does not only justify us he sanctified us by the gift of the holy spirit. We are a new creation created for good works. Works does not add to our righteousness and standing before God. But is our life now in christ. Works of love and purity. Peter said be holy for I am holy says God. Jesus freed us from borage to sin. And made us slaves of righteousness.  But not by law. By grace and the blood of the lamb.

The same who saved you, keeps you saved.

Once you are saved, you are kept saved, by the Savior.

Saved once, and kept saved forever, by the Savior.

Not by the Torah. Not by the 10 commandments.. not by your attempting to live a holy life and failing on occasion.

The same who saved you, keeps you saveds = This is not only sound logic, but its literal truth.

Or as Paul teaches...  "Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. " = Why these people are NOT saved. or as this verse is talking about, "Israel".

So, a legalist, a heretic, is seeking to get into heaven by doing works of the law.   This means, living holy, presenting your body a living sacrifice, and etc....   So, you are supposed to do this because you ARE Saved, but once you begin doing it for the purpose of tying to stay saved, to keep from losing your salvation,  then you are "fallen from Grace".

-------------------------------------------------

 "the righteousness of Faith" = "the justified shall live by faith"...... living by faith, means you have now the eternal life of Christ in you, and that is why you........... >shall live....<

Obviously you are breathing, right?   So, you are already living.....correct?

So, how is "shall live" to be rightly divided.., if you are already living?

"the word of God is SPIRIT and Truth"..

So, some of God's words are spirit, spiritual, and all are Truth. Some of these Truth's are analogies, and symbolic,    Jesus IS THE Truth.   So, How can an idea, or an understanding of a definition, which is a bit obtuse,  be a Savior?

Jesus is THE Truth.  Not some, not a part, but THE Truth.   Truth is to Righteousness as Light is to the Sun.   And this is possible because Truth Exists because Jesus Exists.  Its exactly the same as the reason that Love exists, is because God exists..  OUT OF them, comes both, Love and Truth.

"shall live", vs, "shall not live"...

Every human spirit is eternal, and some go to heaven, some go to hell...     So, regarding this, how about "shall live", ?  How does something that already exists as an eternal spirit, "shall live"?

Ok, 

there is something call the "second death", and this is to be eternally cast into "outer darkness", which is just more info regarding  the literal eternal damnation (Judgement of God against sin) that is already in place for the  Christ rejector..   John 3:36 ,  the "wailing and nashing of teeth" is all a part of the end result of rejecting Christ. 

The "shall live", means you shall NOT have that "second death" experience, you will not be found at the Great White Throne Judgement for Christ Rejectors,  because you have been born again.

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Behold