THE TORAH --- WRONG CONCLUSION

[steve morrow]

TITUS 2:11 for the grace of GOD that bringeth salvation hat appeared to all men --2:12--TEACHING US-- that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly righteously and godly in this present world

2 PETER 3:18 but grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our LORD and SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST ---TO HIM BE GLORY BOTH NOW AND FOREVER---

JOHNN 1:17 for the law was given by moses but grace and truth came ---BY JESUS CHRIST---

*******2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 but if the ministration of death written and engraven in stones was glorious so that the children of israel could not steadfastly behold the face of moses for the glory of his countenance ---WHICH GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY--3:8--how shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious--3:9--for if the ministration of condemnation be glory much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory --3:10-- for even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect by reason of the glory that excelleth --3:11--for if that which is done away was glorious much more that which remaineth is glorious*******

EZEKIEL 36:25 then will I sprinkle ---CLEAN WATER UPON YOU--- and you shall be clean from all your filthiness and from all your idols ---WILL I CLEANSE YOU---

36:26-- a new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and I will give you an heart of flesh --36:27--and I will put MY spirit within you and cause you to walk in MY statutes and you shall keep ---MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM---

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3 forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of CHRIST ministered by us written not with ink but with the spirit of the living GOD ---NOT IN TABLES OF STONE---but in fleshy tables of the heart 

JOHN 6:63 it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life 

2 CORINTHIANS 3:17 now THE LORD is that spirit and where the spirit of THE LORD is there is liberty 

GALATIANS 5:13 for brethren you have been called unto liberty only ---USE NOT LIBERTY FOR AN OCCASION TO THE FLESH--- but by love serve one another 

ROMANS 6:18 being then made free from sin you became the servants of righteousness 

 

LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

4 hours ago, steve morrow said:

TITUS 2:11 for the grace of GOD that bringeth salvation hat appeared to all men --2:12--TEACHING US-- that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly righteously and godly in this present world

2 PETER 3:18 but grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our LORD and SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST ---TO HIM BE GLORY BOTH NOW AND FOREVER---

JOHNN 1:17 for the law was given by moses but grace and truth came ---BY JESUS CHRIST---

*******2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 but if the ministration of death written and engraven in stones was glorious so that the children of israel could not steadfastly behold the face of moses for the glory of his countenance ---WHICH GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY--3:8--how shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious--3:9--for if the ministration of condemnation be glory much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory --3:10-- for even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect by reason of the glory that excelleth --3:11--for if that which is done away was glorious much more that which remaineth is glorious*******

EZEKIEL 36:25 then will I sprinkle ---CLEAN WATER UPON YOU--- and you shall be clean from all your filthiness and from all your idols ---WILL I CLEANSE YOU---

36:26-- a new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and I will give you an heart of flesh --36:27--and I will put MY spirit within you and cause you to walk in MY statutes and you shall keep ---MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM---

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3 forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of CHRIST ministered by us written not with ink but with the spirit of the living GOD ---NOT IN TABLES OF STONE---but in fleshy tables of the heart 

JOHN 6:63 it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life 

2 CORINTHIANS 3:17 now THE LORD is that spirit and where the spirit of THE LORD is there is liberty 

GALATIANS 5:13 for brethren you have been called unto liberty only ---USE NOT LIBERTY FOR AN OCCASION TO THE FLESH--- but by love serve one another 

ROMANS 6:18 being then made free from sin you became the servants of righteousness 

 

LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

 

 

 

Hi there!

TORAH IS THE RIGHT CONCLUSION!

Sounds like you think that "Torah....is the wrong conclusion".

However, you cited Eze. 36:27 which confirms that we should obey all TORAH ORDINANCES!

So, that's quite the contradiction in your position......

Right?

And there's more!

And Titus and Peter affirm GRACE...but grace is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34)...and humble people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3).

And Titus affirms we should live RIGHTEOUSLY....thus we should OBEY TORAH (Dt. 6:25).  Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you, by the way (Mt.22:37).

Peter affirms CHRIST....and Christ requires Torah (Mt.5:19).

Jn. 1:17 affirms TRUTH...and Torah is truth (Ps.119:142)...thus the Torah that came by Moses is manifested in Christ who requires all Torah! (Mt.5:19)

2 Cor. 3 affirms the SPIRIT who requires TORAH (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21;Rom.8:7,13).

Sure, the Old Covenant passes away (Heb.8:13)...but the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10).

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Jn.6:63?  Yes!  The flesh is bad....and the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7)....so OBEY TORAH IN THE SPIRIT!

Gal.5:13?  Yes!  The flesh is bad....and the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7)....so OBEY TORAH IN THE SPIRIT!

Rom.6:18?  Yes!  We DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7)...in obedience to Torah (Dt. 6:25;2Ti.3:16).

 

TORAH IS THE RIGHT CONCLUSION!

blessings....

 

 

 

[omega2xx]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!

TORAH IS THE RIGHT CONCLUSION!

Sounds like you think that "Torah....is the wrong conclusion".

However, you cited Eze. 36:27 which confirms that we should obey all TORAH ORDINANCES!

So, that's quite the contradiction in your position......

Right?

And there's more!

And Titus and Peter affirm GRACE...but grace is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34)...and humble people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3).

And Titus affirms we should live RIGHTEOUSLY....thus we should OBEY TORAH (Dt. 6:25).  Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you, by the way (Mt.22:37).

Peter affirms CHRIST....and Christ requires Torah (Mt.5:19).

Jn. 1:17 affirms TRUTH...and Torah is truth (Ps.119:142)...thus the Torah that came by Moses is manifested in Christ who requires all Torah! (Mt.5:19)

2 Cor. 3 affirms the SPIRIT who requires TORAH (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21;Rom.8:7,13).

Sure, the Old Covenant passes away (Heb.8:13)...but the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10).

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Jn.6:63?  Yes!  The flesh is bad....and the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7)....so OBEY TORAH IN THE SPIRIT!

Gal.5:13?  Yes!  The flesh is bad....and the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7)....so OBEY TORAH IN THE SPIRIT!

Rom.6:18?  Yes!  We DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7)...in obedience to Torah (Dt. 6:25;2Ti.3:16).

 

TORAH IS THE RIGHT CONCLUSION!

blessings....

 

 

 

Why is the Torah the right conclusion? The right conclusion for what?

Love, peace, joy

[BibleGuy]

58 minutes ago, omega2xx said:

Why is the Torah the right conclusion? The right conclusion for what?

Love, peace, joy

Love requires Torah (Dt.6:5,25;1Jn.5:3).

Peace is given to those who love Torah (Ps.119:165).

We have JOY in God's word (Ps. 119:162) which includes Torah (Dt.5:27-33).

blessings...

 

[omega2xx]

45 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Love requires Torah (Dt.6:5,25;1Jn.5:3).

Peace is given to those who love Torah (Ps.119:165).

We have JOY in God's word (Ps. 119:162) which includes Torah (Dt.5:27-33).

blessings...

 

I don't think you answered the first question, but I won't quibble over that.

Does loving the Torah, which i agree with, require obeying all of the Torah?

you did not answer the second one---The right conclusion for what?

Let me ask you one more question:  Does the Torah include the dietary laws and the ceremonial laws?  If so, are we still required to follow them, Passover for example?  Right, that is 2     questions, but let's not quibble over that.

Love, peace, joy

 

[steve morrow]

HEBREWS 7:11 if therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood --for under it the people received the law--what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of melchisedec ---AND NOT BE CALLED AFTER THE ORDER OF AARON--- 7:12 for the priesthood --BEING CHANGED--there is made of necessity ---A CHANGE ALSO OF THE LAW---

HEBREWS 7:19 for the law made nothing perfect but the bringing in of --A BETTER HOPE DID--by the which we draw nigh unto GOD --7:20--and inasmuch as not without an oath HE was made priest --7:21-- for those priests were made without an oath but this with an oath by HIM that said unto HIM THE LORD sware and will not repent thou art a priest forever after the order of melchisedec 

*******HEBREWS 7:22 by so much was JESUS made a surety of a better testament *******--7:23--and they truly were many priests because they were not suffered to continue ---BY REASON OF DEATH*******7:24-- but this man because he contiueth ever hath an ---UNCHANGEABLE PRIESTHOOD---

HEBREWS 3:3 for this man was counted worthy of more glory than moses inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honor than the house --3:4-- for every house is builded by some man ---BUT HE THAT BUILT ALL THINGS IS GOD --3:5-- and moses verily was faithful in all his house as a servant for a testimony of those things which were spoken after 

HEBREWS 3:6 ---BUT CHRIST AS A SON OVER HIS OWN HOUSE---whose house are we --IF--we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope unto the end 

2 THESSALONIANS 2:16 ---NOW OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF AND GOD EVEN OUR FATHER--- which hath loved us and hath given us everlasting consolation ---AND GOOD HOPE THROUGH GRACE---

TITUS 2:12 teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly righteously and godly ---IN THIS PRESENT WORLD---

 

LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND OUR FATHER 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, omega2xx said:

I don't think you answered the first question, but I won't quibble over that.

Does loving the Torah, which i agree with, require obeying all of the Torah?

you did not answer the second one---The right conclusion for what?

Let me ask you one more question:  Does the Torah include the dietary laws and the ceremonial laws?  If so, are we still required to follow them, Passover for example?  Right, that is 2     questions, but let's not quibble over that.

Love, peace, joy

 

Hi there!

Ok, yes, my post was in response to the original post in the thread....which stated that Torah is the wrong conclusion.....(I presumed that the original post in the thread was a generally anti-Torah post, claiming that we Christians need not be concerned about obeying Torah instructions.....but even that was uncertain, given the ambiguity in the original post in the thread.....)

So, given my assumption, I provided a pro-Torah post in response, in effect claiming that Torah instructions ARE something that we Christians should be concerned about obeying....

Hope this answers your original question...

 

And yes, love for Torah entails love for God (Dt.6:6) which is proven through love for ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).

John agrees (1Jn.5:3).

 

"Does the Torah include the dietary laws and the ceremonial laws?"

Yes, Torah (defined as the written Torah of Moses, c.f. 1K.2:3, being Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) includes the instructions given to Israel (i.e., given to us).

So, dietary laws (Lev. 11;Dt.14) are included (and explicitly applied to us, 1Pe.1;16).

Even ceremonial laws were obeyed by 1st-century Christians (Ac.21:20).

Some Christians were even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7)

 

But now, in our present state of diaspora (Jas.1:1), we can't obey those Torah portions.

But Jesus WILL restore them (Mal.3:4), and we WILL again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt.30:1-8) when we return to inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29).

 

"If so, are we still required to follow them, Passover for example? "

Passover is an instance of the moedim in general....none of which are technically fully observable while in diaspora (see Lam.1:4).

But Paul STILL requires Corinthians to obey Torah (1Cor.7:19)....even Passover, while in CORINTH (1Cor.5:7-8).

So, the command to celebrate Pesach in 1Cor.5 is evidently a command to engage in a COMMEMORATIVE celebration, not a literal celebration as required in all Torah details.

After all, it's doubtful that all men in Corinth could, in practice, make the journey to Jerusalem....and of course Paul would have known this, thus again confirming that the Pesach commandment (1Cor.5:7-8) is a COMMEMORATIVE commandment for those in diaspora.

Nevertheless, Paul DID command it (1Cor.5:7-8), so we should do what Paul requires (given his apostolic authority, 1Cor.12:28;Mt.23:34).

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, steve morrow said:

HEBREWS 7:11 if therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood --for under it the people received the law--what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of melchisedec ---AND NOT BE CALLED AFTER THE ORDER OF AARON--- 7:12 for the priesthood --BEING CHANGED--there is made of necessity ---A CHANGE ALSO OF THE LAW---

HEBREWS 7:19 for the law made nothing perfect but the bringing in of --A BETTER HOPE DID--by the which we draw nigh unto GOD --7:20--and inasmuch as not without an oath HE was made priest --7:21-- for those priests were made without an oath but this with an oath by HIM that said unto HIM THE LORD sware and will not repent thou art a priest forever after the order of melchisedec 

*******HEBREWS 7:22 by so much was JESUS made a surety of a better testament *******--7:23--and they truly were many priests because they were not suffered to continue ---BY REASON OF DEATH*******7:24-- but this man because he contiueth ever hath an ---UNCHANGEABLE PRIESTHOOD---

HEBREWS 3:3 for this man was counted worthy of more glory than moses inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honor than the house --3:4-- for every house is builded by some man ---BUT HE THAT BUILT ALL THINGS IS GOD --3:5-- and moses verily was faithful in all his house as a servant for a testimony of those things which were spoken after 

HEBREWS 3:6 ---BUT CHRIST AS A SON OVER HIS OWN HOUSE---whose house are we --IF--we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope unto the end 

2 THESSALONIANS 2:16 ---NOW OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF AND GOD EVEN OUR FATHER--- which hath loved us and hath given us everlasting consolation ---AND GOOD HOPE THROUGH GRACE---

TITUS 2:12 teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly righteously and godly ---IN THIS PRESENT WORLD---

 

LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND OUR FATHER 

Ok then....we're playing the game of "LET'S ONLY QUOTE SCRIPTURE"!  

Fun game!

Heb.8:10   ὅτι αὕτη ἡ διαθήκη ἣν διαθήσομαι τῷ οἴκῳ Ἰσραὴλ μετὰ τὰς ἡμέρας ἐκείνας λέγει κύριος· διδοὺς νόμους μου εἰς τὴν διάνοιαν αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίας αὐτῶν ἐπιγράψω αὐτούς καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτοῖς εἰς θεὸν καὶ αὐτοὶ ἔσονταί μοι εἰς λαόν

 

Heb. 10:16 "Αὕτη ἡ διαθήκη ἣν διαθήσομαι πρὸς αὐτοὺς μετὰ τὰς ἡμέρας ἐκείνας λέγει κύριος· διδοὺς νόμους μου ἐπὶ καρδίας αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν διανοιῶν αὐτῶν ἐπιγράψω αὐτούς"

 

So, I'll point it out (in case you're Greek weak....).....these both state that the LAW is essential to the New Covenant.

That's a GREAT reason for us to OBEY Torah (Law).

blessings...

 

[omega2xx]

8 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!

Ok, yes, my post was in response to the original post in the thread....which stated that Torah is the wrong conclusion.....(I presumed that the original post in the thread was a generally anti-Torah post, claiming that we Christians need not be concerned about obeying Torah instructions.....but even that was uncertain, given the ambiguity in the original post in the thread.....)

So, given my assumption, I provided a pro-Torah post in response, in effect claiming that Torah instructions ARE something that we Christians should be concerned about obeying....

Hope this answers your original question...

 

And yes, love for Torah entails love for God (Dt.6:6) which is proven through love for ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).

John agrees (1Jn.5:3)."

Love for God man and even our enemies and His word is required as a condition of Christianity---You shall love he Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as your self.  What I am trying to find out  is obedience to the Torah a condition to receive the benefits  of folloing God?

 

Does the Torah include the dietary laws and the ceremonial laws?

"Yes, Torah (defined as the written Torah of Moses, c.f. 1K.2:3, being Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) includes the instructions given to Israel (i.e., given to us).

So, dietary laws (Lev. 11;Dt.14) are included (and explicitly applied to us, 1Pe.1;16)."

God eliminated the dietary laws(Acts 10:121-15).   I Pet 1:16 is not about the dietary laws.  Also remember, Jesus said  "it is not what goes into the man that defiles Him, it is what comes out of the man(Mk 7:18-23).

"Even ceremonial laws were obeyed by 1st-century Christians (Ac.21:20)."

That may be but then the people had priest directly related to Levi to perform their necessary duties.  Priest related to Levi are no longer available, although some say there is.

"Some Christians were even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7)"

That verse does not even hint at animal sacrifice.

"But now, in our present state of diaspora (Jas.1:1), we can't obey those Torah portions.

But Jesus WILL restore them (Mal.3:4), and we WILL again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt.30:1-8) when we return to inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29).

If so, are we still required to follow them, Passover for example?

"Passover is an instance of the moedim in general....none of which are technically fully observable while in diaspora (see Lam.1:4)."

Agreed.

"But Paul STILL requires Corinthians to obey Torah (1Cor.7:19)....even Passover, while in CORINTH (1Cor.5:7-8).

So, the command to celebrate Pesach in 1Cor.5 is evidently a command to engage in a COMMEMORATIVE celebration, not a literal celebration as required in all Torah details.

After all, it's doubtful that all men in Corinth could, in practice, make the journey to Jerusalem....and of course Paul would have known this, thus again confirming that the Pesach commandment (1Cor.5:7-8) is a COMMEMORATIVE commandment for those in diaspora.

Nevertheless, Paul DID command it (1Cor.5:7-8), so we should do what Paul requires (given his apostolic authority, 1Cor.12:28;Mt.23:34)."

You still need to address my question about is obedience necessary for receiving he benefits of God.

  Actually I Cor 5:7-8 tells us celebrate it spiritually, not literally.  Once our sacrifice  has been made, that is all that is required.

Obeying Passover has the same problem as following any of the ceremonial laws---no priest related to Levi.  Not only that, most of the Jewish celebration of Passover  is not in accordance with the requirements of the Bible.

blessings...

You seem to be advocating a form of legalism(obedience to the law is required to receive the benefits of following God). which is totally rejected in the NT.

Love, peace, joy

8 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

 

 

 

 

 

[Alive]

⁹ then He ¹said, “^aBEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. ¹⁰ By ¹this will we have been ^asanctified through ^bthe offering of ^cthe body of Jesus Christ ^donce for all.

 

Heb. 10:11   Every priest stands daily ministering and ^aoffering time after time the same sacrifices, which ^bcan never take away sins; ¹² but He, having offered one sacrifice ^afor ¹sins ^bfor all time, ^cSAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, ¹³ waiting from that time onward ^aUNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. ¹⁴ For by one offering He has ^aperfected ^bfor all time those who are ¹sanctified. ¹⁵ And ^athe Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

¹⁶  “^aTHIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM

AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:

I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,

AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”

He then says,

¹⁷  “^aAND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS

I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

¹⁸ Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

 

Heb. 10:19   Therefore, brethren, since we ^ahave confidence to ^benter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, ²⁰ by ^aa new and living way which He inaugurated for us through ^bthe veil, that is, His flesh, ²¹ and since we have ^aa great priest ^bover the house of God, ²² let us ^adraw near with a ¹sincere heart in ^bfull assurance of faith, having our hearts ^csprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies ^dwashed with pure water.