GALATIANS 1:8 WHO IS ACCURSED ?

[Blood Bought 1953]

5 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

" What you fail to realize is that in chapter 3 he concludes that justification by the law is futile.  "

What YOU fail to realize is that in chapter 3 he concludes that justification by the law is futile IF WITHOUT FAITH!

That's why Paul contrasts:

1. FAITH in Jesus (Rom.3:22) Who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19), with

2. WORKS OF THE LAW (Rom.3:20) which are WITHOUT faith (as inferred from the contrast in Rom.3:22).

 

That's why Paul requires BOTH!  LAW (2Ti.3:16) and FAITH (Gal.3:11) TOGETHER.

Again, Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the very word of faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"Rom 3:20-24 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;"

Of COURSE observing law without faith in Christ is useless....

That's why Jesus requires LAW (Mt.5:19) AND FAITH (Mt.23:23) TOGETHER.

Not law alone!  (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone! (Jas.2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

Of COURSE it's true that LAW WITHOUT FAITH does nothing but bring awareness of sin.

That's why we need LAW (Mt.5:19) AND FAITH (Mt.23:23) TOGETHER.  Jesus was not joking.

 

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.  "

Of COURSE we are not righteous by law without faith.

We are righteous by faith and law TOGETHER.  FAITH (Dt.18:15;32:20) and LAW (Dt.31:12) TOGETHER for righteousness (Dt.6:25).  After all, Jesus APPLIES Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37), which proves we love God and exhibit RIGHTEOUSNESS in obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:5,25).....Jesus was not joking.

Paul AGREES that TORAH must teach and rebuke and correct and train us in RIGHTEOUSNESS (2Ti.3:16)....

John AGREES that RIGHTEOUSNESS is something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

And Paul CONFIRMS that the RIGHTEOUSNESS about he speaks is a righteousness "TO WHICH THE TORAH AND PROPHETS TESTIFY"!

And what does TORAH say about Paul's righteousness?  That we obey ALL TORAH (Dt.6:25) in righteousness.....NOT FAITH WITHOUT TORAH.

The Prophets AGREE that we obey TORAH, even in the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33) which Paul also affirms (1Cor.11).

After all, the PROPHETS testify that even in the NEW Covenant, we obey Torah "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

This again proves Paul's viewpoint is LAW + FAITH TOGETHER.

NOT law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

NOT faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

Paul here upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc). So OBEY!

Paul here upholds FAITH (which is of TORAH, Mt.23:23;Ps.119:30,86,138).  So OBEY!

Paul here upholds JESUS who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL Disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).  So OBEY!  That's what disciples DO!

Paul here upholds BELIEVING....and even Abraham (who BELIEVED) also OBEYED TORAHS (Ge.26:5).  So be like Abraham and OBEY IN FAITH!

 

"There is no difference,  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

We have all sinned.  We ALL must have our sins taken away by faith in the blood of Christ (Rom.5:9;1Jn.1:7).

And GRACE is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  And HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33:13;Zep.2:3).

Paul here upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc). So OBEY!

Paul here upholds JESUS who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL Disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).  So OBEY!  That's what disciples DO!

 

"You have just proven that you are a Judaizer preaching justification by the law, which is the very thing that Paul so vehemently opposed. "

You don't even understand my position.  I OPPOSE Judaizing.  Remember Peter's hypocrisy?

Try again!

Paul requires LAW+FAITH.

Paul OPPOSES LAW WITHOUT FAITH.

LAW+FAITH is NOT what a "Judaizer" does.

LAW+FAITH is what Paul PREACHES! (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

LAW+FAITH is what JESUS COMMANDS! (Mt.23:23) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

STOP twisting Paul's words.....thanks.

 

"And, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."" Gal 3:10,11 "

Of COURSE we are not justified by law without faith!  AGREED!

And Paul REQUIRES " אֱמוּנָה " (citing Hab.2:4 at Gal.3:11).  AND!  What is this way of " אֱמוּנָה " required by Paul?  ANSWER:  TORAH!  (see " אֱמוּנָה " in Ps.119:30,86,138 for proof).

This again confirms that Paul requires LAW+FAITH TOGETHER.

NOT law alone (Gal.3:10-11;5:4-5).

NOT faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

Jesus agrees:  FAITH IS OF TORAH! (Mt.23:23).  Jesus was not joking.

 

"Yet you judge others regarding the Sabbath. "

JESUS requires Sabbath for all disciples (Mt.5:19 + Mt.28:19-20).....it's HIS requirement, not mine.

PAUL requires all Torah (2Ti.3:16).

JOHN requires all Torah (1Jn.2:3;5:3).

STEPHEN requires all Torah (Ac.6:10-15).

The APOSTLES, in general, teach Torah (Mt.23:34).

So OF COURSE we use all Torah to correct others....that's what Paul REQUIRES (2Ti.3:16).

 

"Concerning the Law, "The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:24,25"

Of COURSE we are no longer under the TUTOR-function of Torah...because we in Christ have already come to Christ!

Is that the ONLY function of Torah?

OF COURSE NOT!

Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  BE GOOD (Gal.6:10) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.  So obey!

Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  BE HOLY (1Pe.1:16) thus entails OBEYING TORAH (in fact, Peter applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly, 1Pe.1:16).  So obey!  STOP eating pork!

Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7) means OBEY TORAH! Otherwise you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who does NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  Seek and pursue the SPIRITUAL (1Cor.14:1) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.  SO obey!

Torah defines SIN (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.  So obey!  STOP sinning!

Torah is FOUNDATIONAL to the New Covenant (Jer.31:33).  So OBEY the Torah of the New Covenant which Jesus inaugurated for you in His very blood (Lk.22:20).

Torah is GOOD fruit (Rom.7:12;Ps.119:39).  So bear the fruit of GOODNESS in the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  OBEY Torah!

Torah is PEACEFUL fruit (Ps.119:165).  So bear the fruit of PEACE in the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  OBEY Torah!

Torah is LOVING fruit (1Jn.5:3;Jn14:15+Mt.5:19;Dt.6:5,25).  So bear the fruit of LOVE in the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  OBEY Torah!

Torah is JOYOUS fruit (Ps.119:162).  So bear the fruit of JOY in the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  OBEY Torah!

Torah is FAITHFUL fruit (Mt.23:23;Hab.2:4+Ps.119:30,86,138;Dt.18:15;32:20).  So bear the fruit of FAITHFULNESS in the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  OBEY Torah!

Torah is an ONGOING SHADOW (PRESENT TENSE in Col.2:17 and Heb.10:1 with respect to the ONGOING shadow-function of Torah).

Torah is personified and embodied in Christ Himself (Jn.1:14;Col.2:17), NOT terminated or canceled.

Torah is the substance of proper DISCIPLESHIP of all nations (alluding, for example, Mt. 5:19 in Mt.28:19-20).

 

So let's stop neglecting the ONGOING TORAH FUNCTIONS, according to Scripture.

 

"Of Christians he writes, "you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6:14"

Of COURSE we are not UNDER LAW.  UNDER LAW (in Romans) means UNDER THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH...and we are NOT UNDER THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH (Rom.8:2).

Rather, we are under the law of OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3;2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:15-19;32:47).  So OBEY!

Why would you continue to sin?  That makes no sense.  Paul told us to NOT SIN (Rom.6:15) meaning OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

AND!  Grace is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9).  So receive grace and OBEY!

 

"In Gal 5:1 he says, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.""

Agreed!  It's BONDAGE to seek justification by LAW WITHOUT FAITH (Gal.5:4-5).

So do BOTH!

LAW (2Ti3:16) and FAITH (Gal.3:11) TOGETHER!

LAW and FAITH together (Mt.23:23).

It's a LAW OF FAITH (Rom.3:27), not faithless works.

It's FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

It's FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE (Rom.1:5).

It's FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE (Rom.16:26).

Obedience to what?  TORAH! (ALL Scripture, 2Ti.3:16).

 

"Ga 5:3  And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law."

Of COURSE adult-male-Gentile-converts need not become circumcised.  Torah does not even require it!  The ongoing mark is for INFANTS (Lev.12:3)....not adult-male-Gentile-converts.

That's why Torah-obedient Paul requires ALL Torah, but not adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (1Cor.7:19)....because Torah does not even require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision.

 

Jesus was NOT joking (Mt.5:19).  ALL TORAH!

 

"Yet you insist that Christians must keep the whole law. You are the very kind of person that Paul is arguing against in Galatians."

Actually, that was JESUS (Mt.5:19).

1. Paul opposes LAW WITHOUT FAITH (Gal.5:4-5).

2. Paul REQUIRES Law (2Ti.3:16) + FAITH (Gal.3:11).

STOP confusing these two distinct issues.

They are NOT the same.

 

And look at Jesus' SCARY warnings against those who oppose Torah!  (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).

Why would you want those terrible consequences?

 

So OBEY!

 

blessings...

 

So do BOTH!

LAW (2Ti3:16) and FAITH (Gal.3:11) TOGETHER!

LAW and FAITH together (Mt.23:23).

Ironic, isn’t it? One that refers to himself as “ Bible Guy” shows an inability to “ rightly divide” the Bible .Claiming falsely that  it takes both Law and Grace to Save as  some Bible - Ignorant Legalists Do ,violates Scripture.You can no more mix Law and Grace than you can oil and water . Christianity 101. Take a lesson ......Romans 11........

 

“But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work.”

Law cancels Grace ......Grace cancels Law.......kinda like night cancels day and day cancels night.....it is IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH to Co-Exist......

Nice , SUBTLE attempt to ADD TO THE GOSPEL with works......What does Galations have to say about these types?  Paul said they were “ ACCURSED”—— look “ that” up in your Greek Concordance......
 

 

 

 

 

But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work.
 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Blood Bought 1953

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

BibleGuy,  I find it difficult to read through you respond posts.  You repeat things I have posted, without putting those things in the quote box.  It's hard to distinguish quickly between what I said, and what you are saying in reply. 

Anyway.  I totally disagree with your statement in the box above.  And STOP saying that I'm on the side of the Antichrist!  That's just mean!  It's not a good way to win an argument, much less to continue polite discussion. 

Isaiah 66:20 "Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 "And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD. 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD. (NKJ)

This text says that people - "your brethren" - will be brought like an offering. 

Some of them - the LORD will take for priests and for Levites.    Your understanding of this depends on your viewpoint.  I understand Isaiah to say the LORD will take some of these "brothers" (fellow believers in Yeshua) for priests (not necessarily Aaronic priests),   and "for Levites" (meaning they will serve like the Levites once served, as persons to serve the LORD at His Temple).  In Isaiah's day the Levites were non-priests who served at the Temple.  Aaron had 2 brothers who were also sons of Levi.  But only Aaron and his descendants were chosen as priests. 

WHEN the earth (and the Jerusalem Temple) is completely "burned up".  WHEN Jesus stands on this earth, if HE then instructs all men to bring animals, to kill them, and to present their blood to HIS Father GOD, THEN I will do so.   But I do not believe such will ever happen.  

Just because they die at the Return, doesn't mean they cannot be resurrected, and constitute "nations in the four corners of the earth" who will live under the ruler-ship of Christ and His "kings and priests". 

Just because they die at the Return, doesn't mean they cannot be resurrected  (3)  "the rest"  will remain asleep in death for another 1000 years, to be resurrected at the 8th millennium.  Then all your verses describing "nations" who serve Israel, will come to pass.

"The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished"  (Rev 20:5).  

"BibleGuy,  I find it difficult to read through you respond posts.  You repeat things I have posted, without putting those things in the quote box.  It's hard to distinguish quickly between what I said, and what you are saying in reply."

Sorry.....I put it in quotes....there's probably a better way....but I'm still trying to figure it out...

 

"And STOP saying that I'm on the side of the Antichrist!  That's just mean!  It's not a good way to win an argument, much less to continue polite discussion. "

I'm trying to be gentle....but you and the antichrist BOTH have a sacrifice-stopping theology (Da.9:27;2Th.2:3-4).  The observation is not intended to be mean...but to be a cautionary warning.

Jn.8:44 is not "mean"...it's just true.

The name-calling in Mt.23 is not mean....it's just true.

It's not mean....just an observation.....

Sure, it's also disconcerting....but hopefully that will motivate you to reconsider your viewpoint....

And of course I doubt you're really on the side of the AntiChrist....and that's the point!   The fact that you ARE a true believer confirms that you should NOT be upholding theology which the antiChrist likewise upholds.

Nobody said that rebukes feel good....but they ARE required (2Ti.3:16;Lk.17:3).

Paul even required banishment in certain cases (2Th.3:14)...it's not mean....it's just intended to SHAME (2Th.3:14) a person so as to incur subsequent repentance as a brother.

As Dobson once said:  SOMETIMES LOVE MUST BE TOUGH....

 

" and "for Levites" (meaning they will serve like the Levites once served, as persons to serve the LORD at His Temple).  "

Every Torah-obedient Prophet (including Isaiah) knows that Torah-sanctioned Levitical priestly activity functions in accordance with TORAH!  (otherwise Isaiah would be a false prophet, given Dt. 13:1-5).

That includes animal sacrifices (just read Leviticus).

 

"(not necessarily Aaronic priests)"

Of COURSE it's Aaronic Levitical priestly activity.

That's what SABBATH requires.

That's what NEW MOON requires.

 

"But I do not believe such will ever happen. "

Then Moses lied (Dt.30:1-8).

Malachi lied (Mal.3:4).

Ezekiel lied (Eze.40-47).

Isaiah deceived us (Is.66).

Zechariah was just joking (Zec.6;Zec.14).

Jeremiah was wrong (Jer.33).

I just can't go there.

But hey....we've been over this again and again....so I guess we'll just have to move on.

 

"Just because they die at the Return, doesn't mean they cannot be resurrected"

Looks like MANY are killed....not all (Is.66:16).

 

""The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished"  (Rev 20:5).  "

That doesn't prove every unredeemed person dies at the Lord's return.

And honestly, killing millions of unredeemed people...and then resurrecting them 10 minutes later surely sounds a bit hokey!

Can only imagine the looks on all their faces!

 

blessings...

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Grace does not get you off the hook. 

What do you mean by “ off the hook?” Is that an euphemism for being obligated to keep  the Law  to stay saved.Getting us “ off the hook” is EXACTLY what Grace does.Everybody that was ever saved or ever “ will” be saved was saved by the Grace of God. God’s Gospel that saves 1cor15:1-4 is a Gospel Of Pure Grace .The only “ hook” you could mean is keeping the Law . Going down that road calls for perfection.Only misguided Legalists think they can do it by working hard to maintain something Paul said was “ useless”.I do absolutely nothing to stay saved, other than REST in the Gospel as commanded by God.Because of Grace, All the stuff that you guys sweat about- making sure your performance is up to grade— all that stuff you work for.....I get for free! Because of Grace , I will never be “ on the hook” for anything. Malign Grace all you want.It is the ONLY thing that can save you....

[BibleGuy]

1 hour ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

So do BOTH!

LAW (2Ti3:16) and FAITH (Gal.3:11) TOGETHER!

LAW and FAITH together (Mt.23:23).

Ironic, isn’t it? One that refers to himself as “ Bible Guy” shows an inability to “ rightly divide” the Bible .Claiming falsely that  it takes both Law and Grace to Save as  some Bible - Ignorant Legalists Do ,violates Scripture.You can no more mix Law and Grace than you can oil and water . Christianity 101. Take a lesson ......Romans 11........

 

“But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work.”

fLaw cancels Grace ......Grace cancels Law.......kinda like night cancels day and day cancels night.....it is IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH to Co-Exist......

Nice , SUBTLE attempt to ADD TO THE GOSPEL with works......What does Galations have to say about these types?  Paul said they were “ ACCURSED”—— look “ that” up in your Greek Concordance......
 

 

 

 

 

But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work.
 

"Claiming falsely that  it takes both Law and Grace to Save"

Did JESUS say that Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life? (hint: yes! Lk.10:25-28)

Did JAMES say that grace extends to the humble? (hint: yes! Jas.4:6)

Do HUMBLE people obey Torah? (hint: Yes!  Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33:13;Zep.2:3)

Are we saved by grace?  Of course! (Eph.2:8-9)

It's ALL true....it's just BIBLE.

 

"Ignorant Legalists Do"

LEGALISM is bad...we are NOT saved by law without faith.

We are NOT saved by works without faith.

We ARE justified by works with faith (Jas.2:24).

 

"violates Scripture."

Rather, ALL Scripture should rebuke you (2Ti.3:16)...that includes TORAH.

 

"You can no more mix Law and Grace than you can oil and water . Christianity 101. "

Hmm....now read Ex.33:13.  GRACE AND LAW TOGETHER!

Exodus 101.

 

"Take a lesson ......Romans 11........"

Ok!

Rom.11:1 upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc). So OBEY TORAH!

Rom.11:2 upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc). So OBEY TORAH!

Rom.11:2 upholds SCRIPTURE (quoting from 1Kings)....and guess what 1 Kings requires?  TORAH! (1Ki.2:3).  So OBEY!

Rom.11:4 upholds SCRIPTURE (quoting from 1Kings)....and guess what 1 Kings requires?  TORAH! (1Ki.2:3).  So OBEY!

Rom.11:5 upholds God's GRACE.  And we remain in God's grace by obeying Torah (Ex.33:13).

Rom.11:6 confirms GRACE is our source, NOT WORKS WITHOUT GRACE.  And GRACE is given to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34); the HUMBLE obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33:13;Zep.2:3).

Rom.11:8 confirms it is BAD to have eyes that do not see, and ears that do not hear.  God requires that such people should OBEY TORAH (Dt.29:12-15).  So obey!

Rom.11:19 confirms believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel; Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33).  So obey!

Rom.11:26-27 confirms that partakers in the New Covenant obey Torah "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).  So obey!

Rom11:28 affirms Paul's GOSPEL by which you are saved IF YOU HOLD FAST TO THE WORD PAUL PREACHED (1Cor.15:1-2), which is FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Rom.11:30 confirms believers do NOT disobey God.  So obey God who commands Torah! (Dt.1:3;5:27-33)

Rom.11:30,32 confirms believers receive MERCY.  Those who receive MERCY are those who obey TORAH (Ex.20:6).  So obey!

Rom.11:33 affirms the goodness of God's JUDGMENTS which are contained in TORAH (1Ki.2:3).  So obey!

Rom.11:36 upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc). So OBEY TORAH!

 

Thanks for bringing out Romans 11.

Encouraging words.

 

"“But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work.”"

Of COURSE we oppose works without grace.  AGREED!

Thus we are justified by works (Jas.2:24) and grace (Rom.3:24) TOGETHER.

Good point.

 

"Law cancels Grace ......Grace cancels Law.......kinda like night cancels day and day cancels night.....it is IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH to Co-Exist......"

OOPS!  Now read Ex. 33:13.

Also Rom.3:24 + Rom.2:13.

 

"SUBTLE attempt to ADD TO THE GOSPEL with works......"

That's PAUL's idea (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"What does Galations have to say about these types?"

Gal.3:11 requires " אֱמוּנָה ", citing Hab. 2:4.  What is this way of " אֱמוּנָה " required by Paul?  TORAH!  (see " אֱמוּנָה " in Ps.119:30,86,138 for proof.  Further confirmed by Dt. 32:20).

Gal. 6:10 requires we DO GOOD WORKS....and TORAH is good (Rom.7:12).  So obey!

Gal. 1 upholds Paul's GOSPEL which saves us IF WE HOLD FAST TO THE WORD PAUL PREACHED (1Cor.15:2) which is FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

Thanks for bringing up Galatians!

These are encouraging words.

 

blessings...

[BibleGuy]

10 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Grace does not get you off the hook. 

What do you mean by “ off the hook?” Is that an euphemism for being obligated to keep  the Law  to stay saved.Getting us “ off the hook” is EXACTLY what Grace does.Everybody that was ever saved or ever “ will” be saved was saved by the Grace of God. God’s Gospel that saves 1cor15:1-4 is a Gospel Of Pure Grace .The only “ hook” you could mean is keeping the Law . Going down that road calls for perfection.Only misguided Legalists think they can do it by working hard to maintain something Paul said was “ useless”.I do absolutely nothing to stay saved, other than REST in the Gospel as commanded by God.Because of Grace, All the stuff that you guys sweat about- making sure your performance is up to grade— all that stuff you work for.....I get for free! Because of Grace , I will never be “ on the hook” for anything. Malign Grace all you want.It is the ONLY thing that can save you....

"Is that an euphemism for being obligated to keep  the Law  to stay saved."

Moses said he REMAINS in God's grace by CONTINUING in God's ways (Ex.33:13) which are TORAH (1Ki.2:3).

Paul said you are saved IF YOU HOLD FAST TO THE WORD HE PREACHED (1Cor.15:1-2), which is TORAH (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Jesus said you are His disciples IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS WORD (Jn.8:31) which includes ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

So go ahead and disobey Torah if you like....but BEWARE of the scary warnings against such people: (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42)....why would you want that?

 

"Everybody that was ever saved or ever “ will” be saved was saved by the Grace of God. "

And GRACE is not an excuse to SIN (1Cor.15:34).  And STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).

After all, GRACE is given to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34); HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33;13).

 

"Going down that road calls for perfection."

JESUS requires perfection (Mt.5:48) and says it's easy! (Mt.11:30).

 

"Only misguided Legalists think they can do it by working hard"

RELAX!  NOBODY earns their salvation by good works without faith.  Paul told us this OVER and OVER and OVER again.....You're ok!  We AGREE on that!

HIS BLOOD takes our sins away (1Jn.1:7), NOT our works without faith....NOT our works WITH faith....ONLY His blood takes them away.

But that SAME BLOOD inaugurated the New Covenant (Lk.22:20) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10)....so we OBEY TORAH too!

But ONLY the blood takes the sins away....

 

"Paul said was “ useless”."

Of COURSE law without faith is useless..

AGREED!

 

"I do absolutely nothing to stay saved,"

OOPS!  

READ AGAIN:

Moses said he REMAINS in God's grace by CONTINUING in God's ways (Ex.33:13) which are TORAH (1Ki.2:3).

Paul said you are saved IF YOU HOLD FAST TO THE WORD HE PREACHED (1Cor.15:1-2), which is TORAH (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Jesus said you are His disciples IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS WORD (Jn.8:31) which includes ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"Because of Grace, All the stuff that you guys sweat about- making sure your performance is up to grade— all that stuff you work for.....I get for free!"

It's free for us ALL....we do not EARN salvation by works....

We don't OBEY out of fear of losing salvation....we obey out of LOVE (Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25).

We don't need to fear.

Just LOVE....which leads to GROWTH in faithful obedience to the one who saved us for FREE!

Obey what?  TORAH! (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25)

 

After all, even YOU have confessed that it's good to obey Torah.....so I don't understand what you're really complaining about here...

 

"Because of Grace , I will never be “ on the hook”"

So you can now sin?

Of course not!

STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

So OBEY.

Even PAUL requires that you WALK IN WORKS (Eph.2:10).

So GRACE is no excuse to avoid WORKS.

Works of what?  TORAH! (2Ti.3:16;Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25;Heb.8:10).

 

"Malign Grace all you want."

I don't malign grace.

We are SAVED by grace (Eph.2:8-9).

 

".It is the ONLY thing that can save you...."

Sounds good!

And if you DISOBEY, look what happens: Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42.

So OBEY TOO!

 

blessings...

 

[Behold]

On 12/15/2019 at 11:40 AM, BibleGuy said:

"ACTUALLY, thats not true.  Paul never preached....."believe on the Lord Jesus, and keep the Torah to be saved". "

Of COURSE Paul preached that!  1Cor. 15:2 says we are saved IF WE HOLD FAST THE WORD HE PREACHES.

 

Paul preaches "the Cross" and he preaches "Jusification by Faith".  

You dont.

Thats a problem, not for Paul, and not for me, but for you.

Paul said that your legalism theology of trying to add works to the  Gospel message of the Cross, is : Galatians 1:8

You are teaching a cross + performance, Gospel, that is "cursed", if you preach it.  Galatians 1:8.

"works, "lifestyle", are a part of our Discipleship, that follows our Salvation.

Its not different then being water baptized, after you are SAVED.

The water does not save you, and its not a part of God's redemption....as its the BLOOD that is what redeems.

And so it is with works.   Works,  like Water Baptism, have no power to save you.

They are not a part of redemption, as redemption is wholly based on what Christ has accomplished by his life, death, and, resurrection.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Behold

[BibleGuy]

5 minutes ago, Behold said:

Paul preaches "the Cross" and he preaches "Jusification by Faith".  

You dont.

Thats a problem, not for Paul, and not for me, but for you.

Paul said that your legalism theology of trying to add works to the  Gospel message of the Cross, is : Galatians 1:8

You are teaching a cross + performance, Gospel, that is "cursed", if you preach it.  Galatians 1:8.

"works, "lifestyle", are a part of our Discipleship, that follows our Salvation.

Its not different then being water baptized, after you are SAVED.

The water does not save you, and its not a part of God's redemption....as its the BLOOD that is what redeems.

And so it is with works.   Works,  like Water Baptism, have no power to save you.

They are not a part of redemption, as redemption is wholly based on what Christ has accomplished by his life, death, and, resurrection.

"Paul preaches "the Cross""

So do I!  1Cor.1:18.    By the way, Paul tells those SAME CORINTHIANS to keep God's commands (1Cor.7:19) which, of course, are contained in TORAH.

 

"he preaches "Jusification by Faith".  "

So do I!  Rom.5:1.  By the way, Paul tells those SAME ROMANS that they are justified by obeying Torah (Rom.2:13).

Paul tells those SAME ROMANS that Torah-obedience IS the word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"Paul said that your legalism theology of trying to add works to the  Gospel message of the Cross, is : Galatians 1:8"

OOPS!  We are saved by Paul's gospel IF WE HOLD FAST TO THE WORD PAUL PREACHED (1Cor.15:1-2), which is FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt.30:14 at Rom.10:8).

After all, Paul REQUIRES that we WALK IN WORKS (Eph.2:10).

 

"You are teaching a cross + performance, Gospel, that is "cursed", if you preach it.  Galatians 1:8."

ONLY the blood takes our sins away (1Jn.1:7).....RELAX......

 

"Its not different then being water baptized, after you are SAVED.

The water does not save you, and its not a part of God's redemption....as its the BLOOD that is what redeems."

Nice!  So obey Torah AFTER you are saved....that means you should OBEY NOW!

 

"They are not a part of redemption, as redemption is wholly based on what Christ has accomplished by his life, death, and, resurrection."

Great!  Be redeemed by the blood.  

THEN OBEY TORAH! (2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19)

 

blessings...

 

[Behold]

On 12/15/2019 at 12:09 PM, douge said:

Please show me where in scripture Peter preached the same gospel as Paul.

 

You question is not what you mean to ask.

What you mean to ask me is,,,, "where did peter teach what paul taught, regarding "GRACE", vs "works"........to be saved and kept saved.

Well, NOT in Acts 2:38.  Thats a fact.

 

But, Here are a few...

2nd Peter 1.

You could start there, as Peter is comparing  his faith that he has  as the righteousness of God, to the same FAITH the  people have, to whom he is addressing.

("Faith is counted by God, as our Righteousness")

So, this is what Paul preaches also.. "justification by faith".   Its the same thing that Peter is saying to them, about himself as well.

 

Here it is better stated.......

1 Peter 1:1-3.   and i'll teach this slightly,  so that you can see it more clearly....

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

Oh, look at this ....  3: ."according to his (GODS)  abundant MERCY, (HE)  hath begotten us again"

Now do you see, that mercy in effect ??? = born again.    This is GRACE.  This is God giving the new birth....NOT BY WORKS.......BUT BY  "MERCY.""

SEE THAT?  Mercy is "the GIFT of Salvation".......that is offered by MERCY< and not BECAUSE you work for it.

Its a GIFT.   And you dont earn a GIFT, after you received it from God, as you are trying to teach.

Next...

5: who ??, = (the born again) are Kept by the power of God, unto salvation".....

Notice what is "Keeping" you saved?  Its the same thing that saved you....."the power of God".....and this is the "preaching of the Cross, which is "the power of God UNTO Salvation"....as PAUL preaches it and teaches it.

So all this is simply saying that the Cross is the message that by FAITH is believed, and Salvation comes as God's righteousness given as a free gift....that is then KEPT by God for you.    Which is this verse.   Philippians 1:6

Go read it.

Now, what is ALL of this?   Its GRACE.   And I preach the Gospel of the Grace of God, that Paul gave me. And this is the real Gospel, and all real ministers only preach and teach this exact message.

  I posted Peter's verses,  explaining about the Cross, about the Mercy of God, .......and being "Kept"........all of this is "the GIFT of Salvation".....Its the mercy of God, extended to us, as GRACE.

Grace, is the Mercy of God freely given, that BECOMES our Redemption when we by Faith BELIEVE the Gospel and are BORN AGAIN.

Works have no part in that.....not before or after, you are born again.   

And how do we get this Grace from God to be ours, as our Righteousness?   Well that is Peter in 2nd Peter 1, talking about the FAITH that has accomplished this for him, and for the people he is writing to, as well.

This faith that saves, that Peter is describing, is "justification by faith", which is the Gospel that Paul received from Jesus, that I teach, and that all real ministers of "the Gospel" will teach and preach.

Peter is teaching this just before he was about to DIE.  This is old Peter, who understood "justification by faith" at the end of his Ministry, but not at the beginning when he was preaching Acts 2:38.

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Behold

[Resurrection Priest]

On 12/14/2019 at 9:54 AM, BibleGuy said:

adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (1Cor.7:19)...because Torah does not even require it.

I thought Abraham had the rite performed on himself, and every male of his household, regardless of age, including all his servants.

Isn't the story of Abraham in Torah (the 5 Book of Moses)? 

If you're saying that TORAH is only those commands given by the LORD through Moses, then that leaves out Genesis and several chapters of Exodus. 

Genesis 17:10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 "And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants. 13 "A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant." (NAS)

Genesis 17:23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son (age 14), and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him. (NAS)

[Blood Bought 1953]

7 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

"Claiming falsely that  it takes both Law and Grace to Save"

Did JESUS say that Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life? (hint: yes! Lk.10:25-28)

Did JAMES say that grace extends to the humble? (hint: yes! Jas.4:6)

Do HUMBLE people obey Torah? (hint: Yes!  Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33:13;Zep.2:3)

Are we saved by grace?  Of course! (Eph.2:8-9)

It's ALL true....it's just BIBLE.

 

"Ignorant Legalists Do"

LEGALISM is bad...we are NOT saved by law without faith.

We are NOT saved by works without faith.

We ARE justified by works with faith (Jas.2:24).

 

"violates Scripture."

Rather, ALL Scripture should rebuke you (2Ti.3:16)...that includes TORAH.

 

"You can no more mix Law and Grace than you can oil and water . Christianity 101. "

Hmm....now read Ex.33:13.  GRACE AND LAW TOGETHER!

Exodus 101.

 

"Take a lesson ......Romans 11........"

Ok!

Rom.11:1 upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc). So OBEY TORAH!

Rom.11:2 upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc). So OBEY TORAH!

Rom.11:2 upholds SCRIPTURE (quoting from 1Kings)....and guess what 1 Kings requires?  TORAH! (1Ki.2:3).  So OBEY!

Rom.11:4 upholds SCRIPTURE (quoting from 1Kings)....and guess what 1 Kings requires?  TORAH! (1Ki.2:3).  So OBEY!

Rom.11:5 upholds God's GRACE.  And we remain in God's grace by obeying Torah (Ex.33:13).

Rom.11:6 confirms GRACE is our source, NOT WORKS WITHOUT GRACE.  And GRACE is given to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34); the HUMBLE obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33:13;Zep.2:3).

Rom.11:8 confirms it is BAD to have eyes that do not see, and ears that do not hear.  God requires that such people should OBEY TORAH (Dt.29:12-15).  So obey!

Rom.11:19 confirms believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel; Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33).  So obey!

Rom.11:26-27 confirms that partakers in the New Covenant obey Torah "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).  So obey!

Rom11:28 affirms Paul's GOSPEL by which you are saved IF YOU HOLD FAST TO THE WORD PAUL PREACHED (1Cor.15:1-2), which is FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Rom.11:30 confirms believers do NOT disobey God.  So obey God who commands Torah! (Dt.1:3;5:27-33)

Rom.11:30,32 confirms believers receive MERCY.  Those who receive MERCY are those who obey TORAH (Ex.20:6).  So obey!

Rom.11:33 affirms the goodness of God's JUDGMENTS which are contained in TORAH (1Ki.2:3).  So obey!

Rom.11:36 upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc). So OBEY TORAH!

 

Thanks for bringing out Romans 11.

Encouraging words.

 

"“But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work.”"

Of COURSE we oppose works without grace.  AGREED!

Thus we are justified by works (Jas.2:24) and grace (Rom.3:24) TOGETHER.

Good point.

 

"Law cancels Grace ......Grace cancels Law.......kinda like night cancels day and day cancels night.....it is IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH to Co-Exist......"

OOPS!  Now read Ex. 33:13.

Also Rom.3:24 + Rom.2:13.

 

"SUBTLE attempt to ADD TO THE GOSPEL with works......"

That's PAUL's idea (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"What does Galations have to say about these types?"

Gal.3:11 requires " אֱמוּנָה ", citing Hab. 2:4.  What is this way of " אֱמוּנָה " required by Paul?  TORAH!  (see " אֱמוּנָה " in Ps.119:30,86,138 for proof.  Further confirmed by Dt. 32:20).

Gal. 6:10 requires we DO GOOD WORKS....and TORAH is good (Rom.7:12).  So obey!

Gal. 1 upholds Paul's GOSPEL which saves us IF WE HOLD FAST TO THE WORD PAUL PREACHED (1Cor.15:2) which is FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

Thanks for bringing up Galatians!

These are encouraging words.

 

blessings...

 

I hope Newbies notice how this guy is 90% dependent on Old Testament verses to substantiate his Legalistic views. The irony is incredulous ......Paul write the Book of Galations to put an END to such blindness...  “ They see yet they don’t see”  “ Christ is the END of the Law for ALL that believe.” A five year old could see it— unless they were blinded by Satan.Shakespeare nailed this one— “ Satan can quote Scripture for his purpose ........what a godly outside a lie can have”

This is NOT to be misconstrued as an attack on “ Bible guy”........ I am just throwing this stuff out there for people to see......I disagree with that guy’s Doctrine, nothing more, nothing less.....