The 8th king of Revelation 17

[Diaste]

On 12/14/2019 at 2:38 PM, Gentle-Warrior said:

Do me a favor and please respond to what I said first before giving me your understanding of what you believe, that by the way, it didn't make much sense,

I said, 

"Surely I am coming quickly" does not mean 2,000 + years into the future, but QUICKLY! Jesus returned to judge the harlot Israel by using the Romans, and to do away with all the wicked Jews that had up to that time been persecuting and killing His true Israel (a people of faith in their Messiah). 

All you have to do read what Jesus CLEARLY said in Mat. 23:34-38, in some of His parable that were meant for unbelieving Israel (Mat. 22:1-14) and then read 1 Thes. 2:14-16 as a follow up. Then read your history (the Jewish-Roman wars that took place in AD 66-70) 

Since when quickly means 2,000 years plus??? 

Hi,

This used to give me some concern as well. I find no answer as to why it's been so long in our terms. I mean, it's crazy right? For us 'quickly' is like 'right now' or at least today, a week at most. Jesus is an immortal being with an immortal plan and time is His slave. As we are slaves to time, time is bound up in the will of the Lord, a concept created by Him for a purpose, used as a tool for His ends. From an immortal perspective 2000 years ticks past in a moment. If we are to believe some it's literally only been two days in God's realm since Jesus walked the earth.

I don't buy that. It's just that in God's eyes time has no meaning, it doesn't pass, there are no dates and hours like we are slaves to. Any reference to a time or a day and hour by Jesus in prophecy is to give us a frame of reference, not to show the Lord must abide by our concept of time. We are born, we age, we die, He does not.

And the term you are using to bolster your idea of 'quickly' as it's relates to the passing of time is incorrect. The Greek word does not convey a time element rather it relates the concept of 'nothing will get in the way of the plan'. In the strictest definition it's 'no unnecessary delay'.  

And since the plan's origin is of the immortal and is about immortality, and we are not privy to every thought of the immortal but only 'know in part', we cannot comprehend the full plan nor what would constitute necessary or unnecessary delay.

I can assure you Jesus has not come thus:

"behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him called Faithful and TRUE, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes as a flame of fire, and on his head  many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 

And the armies  in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 3/30/2020 at 5:22 PM, douggg said:

The point I am making is the fallen and one is kings are anchorored to John's time in the first century.

 

Hey douggg,

I have struggled with this over time. Heard a lot of different takes on 'five are fallen; one is, and the other has not yet come'. 

The main idea is the one you posted above; the 'one is' must be the one in power at the time of the prophecy. 

It may be a weak point but how does a prophecy concern the past in relation to the prophecy?

If it's a prophecy it cannot 'prophesy' of past events, can it? That's not prophecy.

Jesus said,

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,"

In this one statement, "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come;" there is past, present and future. Not convinced past and present have anything to do with prophecy.

So in a short study of eisi and pipto which is 'there are' and 'are fallen, respectively, the translation could read ' seven kings will exist: five will fall'. And the 'one is' is more along the lines of a present existence and belonging. This means that as long as there are 7 kings, five fall, one exists before the coming of the short lived 7th, and all are somehow related and/or of the same group, this, "there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come;" could occur anytime. 

I think what we are looking for here is a time when 7 kings will exist where five have passed and one is that are all part of the same lineage or group. 

The idea of 'one is' doesn't work all that well if John was exiled by Domitian. He's the 12th. By most accounts John received the Revelation in 95 AD, well past Nero who would be the 'one is' in the popular take on this prophecy.

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Hey douggg,

I have struggled with this over time. Heard a lot of different takes on 'five are fallen; one is, and the other has not yet come'. 

The main idea is the one you posted above; the 'one is' must be the one in power at the time of the prophecy. 

It may be a weak point but how does a prophecy concern the past in relation to the prophecy?

If it's a prophecy it cannot 'prophesy' of past events, can it? That's not prophecy.

Jesus said,

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,"

In this one statement, "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come;" there is past, present and future. Not convinced past and present have anything to do with prophecy.

So in a short study of eisi and pipto which is 'there are' and 'are fallen, respectively, the translation could read ' seven kings will exist: five will fall'. And the 'one is' is more along the lines of a present existence and belonging. This means that as long as there are 7 kings, five fall, one exists before the coming of the short lived 7th, and all are somehow related and/or of the same group, this, "there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come;" could occur anytime. 

I think what we are looking for here is a time when 7 kings will exist where five have passed and one is that are all part of the same lineage or group. 

The idea of 'one is' doesn't work all that well if John was exiled by Domitian. He's the 12th. By most accounts John received the Revelation in 95 AD, well past Nero who would be the 'one is' in the popular take on this prophecy.

In short, this book of Revelation CERTAINLY is prophetic, certainly contains prophecy, but also includes some history. 

You are "putting God in a box" so to speak, insisting He cannot speak of past events in a book of prophecy. OF COURSE HE CAN! He is God! There is proof that some of Revelation is speaking of history. God absolutely showed John things in the future - even still future to us today, but God also included things in the past, and even ANCIENT past, such as when Satan took 1/3 of the angels with him when he was kicked out of heaven. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Hi,

This used to give me some concern as well. I find no answer as to why it's been so long in our terms. I mean, it's crazy right? For us 'quickly' is like 'right now' or at least today, a week at most. Jesus is an immortal being with an immortal plan and time is His slave. As we are slaves to time, time is bound up in the will of the Lord, a concept created by Him for a purpose, used as a tool for His ends. From an immortal perspective 2000 years ticks past in a moment. If we are to believe some it's literally only been two days in God's realm since Jesus walked the earth.

I don't buy that. It's just that in God's eyes time has no meaning, it doesn't pass, there are no dates and hours like we are slaves to. Any reference to a time or a day and hour by Jesus in prophecy is to give us a frame of reference, not to show the Lord must abide by our concept of time. We are born, we age, we die, He does not.

And the term you are using to bolster your idea of 'quickly' as it's relates to the passing of time is incorrect. The Greek word does not convey a time element rather it relates the concept of 'nothing will get in the way of the plan'. In the strictest definition it's 'no unnecessary delay'.  

And since the plan's origin is of the immortal and is about immortality, and we are not privy to every thought of the immortal but only 'know in part', we cannot comprehend the full plan nor what would constitute necessary or unnecessary delay.

I can assure you Jesus has not come thus:

"behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him called Faithful and TRUE, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes as a flame of fire, and on his head  many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 

And the armies  in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Well said, Diaste! No preterist has ever been successful at showing when all these events in REvelation happened, simply because they have NOT YET happened. 

[iamlamad]

On 3/30/2020 at 6:30 PM, R. Hartono said:

What John saw is the future 6th king who was preceded by 5 kings, this is to give a clue as to when the RCC was reestablished in Vatican after the destruction of inquisition by Napoleon.

Just so you know, the Antichrist Beast with His False Prophet, are going to be making JERUSALEM their home for 3.5 years, NOT the Vatican!

[douggg]

On 3/31/2020 at 12:44 PM, Revelation Man said:

No, he is OUT OF the Fourth Beasts Head {which is actually the 6th Beast} HE IS the 7th Head/7th Kingdom/7th Beast. So the first sentence above I consider to be in error a wee bit. He IS the 7th Kingdom/Beast himself.

The first beast of Revelation 13, as a whole, is the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7.

It's composite body means, with 42 months left in the 7 years, the fourth kingdom has gained control of the territories once held by the other three kingdoms in Daniel 7.

The 7th head on the beast, that has been mortally wounded but is healed, is the little horn person.   He will have been killed and comes back to life as the beast person, that has the mouth like a lion.    

____________________

The heads are kings.    The horns are kings.    Of the fourth kingdom.

[douggg]

On 3/31/2020 at 12:44 PM, Revelation Man said:

Easy....Egypt = 1st Kingdom {Beast} of the Mediterranean Sea Region to BURDEN Israel. Assyria = 2nd Kingdom to burden Israel like a Beast of Burden.Then we see Daniel's Great Babylon =3rd Kingdom, Persia = 4th Kingdom, Greece = 5th Kingdom and finally Rome = the 6th Kingdom/Beast Head........then the Beast GOES AWAY !!

I hear all that.   But Revelation 17:10 says kings, not kingdoms.

On 3/31/2020 at 12:44 PM, Revelation Man said:

Only Greece fits, BUT.....Does that make sense ? YES.........We get Daniel 11, a chapter so chock full of details about the coming Greek Kingdoms that many men involved in History refuse to believe that Daniel could have been born 300 to 400 years before these events came to pass !! So the Greek LINEAGE is very, very important !! We are given his TYPE in Antiochus Epiphanes, I think we are given the False Prophet TYPE also in Jason whom Antiochus appointed. 

Antiochus was opposed by the Romans.    The prince who shall come must be of the Romans, Daniel 9:26.

Greece is the eastern most frontier of the EU.    From there, the little horn person will have staged his EU army before heading south and east (Daniel 8:9) into the middle east following Gog/Magog.   To gain control of the territories once held by the previous thee kingdoms, of Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greeks. (Revelation 13:2).

 

[douggg]

On 3/31/2020 at 12:44 PM, Revelation Man said:

Apollyon is released with the First Woe. Its not up to you nor I to say HOW LONG he has to be a part of the Beast, nor do you know how long the first 5 Trumps take !! He can be ASSIGNED to be over the Area again upon his RELEASE !!

The bible does not say Apollyon is over anything but the locust creatures.    It also doesn't say he is part of the beast.

The bible just says that Apollyon is an angel who is king over the locust creatures.

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

On 3/31/2020 at 6:21 PM, R. Hartono said:

This english word one is refer to the 6th which is ruling  in future when  John was shown.

I don't see how - as king 7 is the future king.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

[douggg]

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

This means that as long as there are 7 kings, five fall, one exists before the coming of the short lived 7th, and all are somehow related and/or of the same group, this, "there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come;" could occur anytime. 

Hi Diaste,

There is not room for one king (6) to exist before king 7 in the end times.

Working back in time from Jesus's return...

Revelation 13.  The beast, the person has become king 8, 42 months left

Revelation 13:  The mortally wounded head, that is healed, king 7 the little horn.   With the killing of king 7, the prophecy of the 7 kings over.   Thus no crowns on the heads.

Revelation 12: Crowns on the 7 heads, king 7 will have come to power.   Completing the prophecy at the time the seven years begin (Revelation 12:6 added to Revelation 12:14 = the seven years)

Revelation 17: No crowns on the 7 heads, the prophecy of the 7 kings incomplete.  At the time of John, first century.

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by douggg