Is purgatory real?

[Guest K9Buck]

12 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Just a teacher. 

Yea?  What subject do you teach?

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, Jostler said:

He promised 'THIS DAY...' while still on the cross...not "in three days you will be with Me..."  

As I stated in an earlier post, Jesus made the promise in THIS DAY - the day He was hanging on the cross. The punctuation in the Bible was added by the translator; it was not put there by the writer.  The translation could just as well have read:

"I tell you TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise." meaning today while we are both hanging on these crosses until we die, that one day you will be with me in Paradise.

[Jostler]

Just now, JoeMo said:

As I stated in an earlier post, Jesus made the promise in THIS DAY - the day He was hanging on the cross. The punctuation in the Bible was added by the translator; it was not put there by the writer.  The translation could just as well have read:

"I tell you TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise." meaning today while we are both hanging on these crosses until we die, that one day you will be with me in Paradise.

I do see what you are saying, but there is a reason the translators chose to put that comma where they did

[JoeMo]

5 minutes ago, Jostler said:

I do see what you are saying, but there is a reason the translators chose to put that comma where they did

And what was that reason? Could it have been an error by a fallible scribe?

We are to understand that the words of scripture are infallible.  I believe the Bible is infallible in its original languages; but I don't necessarily believe that translations are infallible.

[Jostler]

8 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

And what was that reason? Could it have been an error by a fallible scribe?

We are to understand that the words of scripture are infallible.  I believe the Bible is infallible in its original languages; but I don't necessarily believe that translations are infallible.

It means the translators were responsible for the difficult task of faithfully transferring MEANING from one language to another.  And I am fully confident the Spirit of God assisted them.  Out of dozens of translation teams, working from different manuscripts, hundreds of years apart.....not one agreed with you.

KJV

 

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

NKJV

 

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

 

NLT

 

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

 

NIV

 

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

 

ESV

 

And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

 

CSB

 

And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

 

RVR60

 

Entonces Jesús le dijo: De cierto te digo que hoy estarás conmigo en el paraíso.

 

NASB

 

And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

 

NET

 

And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

 

RSV

 

And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

 

ASV

 

And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

 

YLT

 

and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

 

DBY

 

And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

WEB

 

And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

HNV

 

Yeshua said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

 

VUL

 

et dixit illi Iesus amen dico tibi hodie mecum eris in paradiso

 

MGNT

 

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἀμήν σοι λέγω σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ

 

TR

 

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμήν λέγω σοι σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Jostler

[Omegaman 3.0]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

As I stated in an earlier post, Jesus made the promise in THIS DAY - the day He was hanging on the cross. The punctuation in the Bible was added by the translator; it was not put there by the writer.  The translation could just as well have read:

"I tell you TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise." meaning today while we are both hanging on these crosses until we die, that one day you will be with me in Paradise.

Yeah really? Are we to suppose that Jesus said "I tell you today.", because he thought they were not aware to the fact that he was telling then that day, instead of the day previously,  or perhaps He was telling the this on the next day! I think they probably knew which day it was, therefore, "I tell you today," is just a silly attempt by people such as Jehovah's Witness, and the Watchtower, to change the obvious meaning to that it does not contradict their mistaken theology!

Hmm, I may have just damaged my reputation with you, sorry about that!

[Resurrection Priest]

4 hours ago, Jostler said:

I do see what you are saying, but there is a reason the translators chose to put that comma where they did

Yes.  That "reason" was the heavy influence for some 1200 years, of the Catholic Church, who used the whole "Purgatory" and "Hell" teaching to milk money from fearful people. 

[Resurrection Priest]

Why are we focused on just one verse, about which there is dispute.  Why not look at other passages?  I'm a weight of the evidence kinda person.  I want to look at the whole book, and all the arguments, then see which way the scale drops. 

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Hmm, I may have just damaged my reputation with you, sorry about that!

No, brother; I'm cool with your response.  I have believed that the dead are unconscious until the resurrection at the Second Coming for over 40 years now because to me, that is what the Bible teaches.  For example:

"Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! For the living know that they will die,   but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,    and even their name is forgotten;  Their love, their hate    and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part   in anything that happens under the sun." (Eccl. 9:4-6)

If the dead are immediately with the Lord or in hell, what is the need of a resurrection?  If we are already alive in Jesus, why do we need to be resurrected?  When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, If Lazarus was in the Kingdom, don't you think he would be mighty upset about being brought back to this miserable planet?

[Resurrection Priest]

John 11:11-13   “Lazarus is sleeping.”

Matthew 9:18, 24   “. . . the girl is not dead, but sleeping.”

Acts 7:60   Stephen “fell asleep.”          

Acts 13:36   David “fell asleep.”

I Thessalonians 4:14-15   “those who are asleep”

I Corinthians 15:6,18   “some have fallen asleep”

I Corinthians 11:30   “many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep”

Psalm 13:3  “lest I sleep the sleep of death”

Daniel 12:2  “them that sleep in the dust”

Job 3:13  “then I should have slept”   

Job 14:12  “nor be raised out of their sleep”

Jeremiah 51:39  “and sleep a perpetual sleep”

Have you ever had an anesthetic for an operation?  You didn’t dream.  You didn’t feel  anything.  Remember how it seemed like only a moment before you were waking up in the recovery room?  You were not conscious of the passage of any time.  What if death could be like that?  You fall asleep one moment, and the next moment you hear His voice.  It’s over!!  It is the resurrection, the return of Christ in glory, the end of this age.
 
 And if a loved one has not accepted salvation, you know that person is asleep, not in a place of torment.  If I could choose, I would want death to be an unconscious sleep.  In fact, I believe this is what the Bible teaches.

Are you saying that "death" is NOT a type of "sleep"?