JoeMo

No man has ever seen the Father (John 1:18; 5:37 6:46). Every manifestation of "the word of God", "the angel of the Lord" or "Yahweh" appearing to men in the OT was the pre - incarnate Jesus. Jesus accepted worship (Matt. 14:33, 28:9 28:17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). If He accepted worship He either truly was God or a demonic charlatan. I prefer to believe the former.

Almost all of the original Christian Church was composed of Jews. Jesus was a Jew. At the return of Christ, the remnant of Israel remaining on earth will look upon Him whom they have pierced as mourn and repent. The Gentile Church has not replaced the Jews as God's chosen people, we have been grafted in.

I believe there will still be believers after the rapture. The very rapture itself will be enough to convert many who previously laughed at such a ridiculous notion. Both Daniel and revelation speak of the terrible times to be faced by believers right up to the second coming. I believe some strong believers (like the two witnesses) will be left on earth to preach to unbelievers until the very end. “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people." (Dan. 8:23-24) " As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High (Dan. 7:21-22) " It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them." (Rev. 13:7) "And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a] 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want." (Rev 11:3-6)

I pretty much agree. I sometimes think that the Second Coming happens in two phases - one where Jesus comes FOR His saints (the rapture); and later He comes WITH His saints. Scripture seems to give two versions of the Second Coming - one in which we have to be ready for His Coming at a totally unexpected time - during peace and prosperity; and one that will be preceded by very explicit signs - like one-world government and religion, Mark of the Beast, extreme and unprecedented persecution of anyone resisting the Beast power, cosmic disturbances, etc. To me it sounds like Second Coming, Phase A and Phase B. I believe in a Pre-Wrath rapture rather than a pre-trib rapture. Just my opinion.

If you think this is persecution, you ain't seen nothin' yet! But you are correct - it is coming to soon; and will begin with the erosion of the First and Second Amendment. It may even involve a total rewrite of the Constitution. I remember a "conspiracy theory" from a few years back about only a couple more states being required to force a constitutional convention which would open up the entire Constitution to revision.

I believe what we are seeing is the "beginning of birth pangs" and the "beginning of sorrows". If WW1 and WW2 were not the "tribulation", what we have going on now isn't the tribulation. While I agree that the time of the end may be upon us, the end of time is not. No antichrist, no temple for the antichrist to call himself God in, No mark of the beast, no cosmic disturbances. I say that because I live in the USA. I'm confident Christians in the Middle east, North Africa, and parts of Asia will disagree with me - and rightly so. They are definitely facing great tribulation.

IMHO, "Father" Yahweh rules the spiritual realm. If He were to appear to any of us in the physical realm, it would so overwhelm our senses that we would die. No human has seen the Father except His Son Jesus. The Father doesn't just sit on His Throne. He rules all the spiritual realms in the entirety of the heavens and on earth. "Jesus" Yahweh rules the physical realm. In the OT, whenever someone sees the LORD, Angel of the Lord, Word of the Lord, it is referring to the pre-incarnate Jesus. It was the pre-incarnate Jesus that led the Israelites from Egypt to Israel, and went before Israel to defeat the pagan tribes who had moved into the Promised Land during the 400-year Egyptian Bondage.

I didn't watch Dr Heiser's video; but I just finished reading "Unseen Realm" for the second time. I didn't see where Dr. Heiser gave a definite answer on the Trinity. For example, on Page 294 of Unseen Realm he states: "Perhaps we should instead ask, is the Spirit Jesus in some way? The question sounds odd, but it's akin to asking if the man Jesus is God in some way. The answer, as we have seen in previous chapters is that Jesus is the second Yahweh, the embodied Yahweh of the Old Testament. But Jesus is not the "Father "Yahweh. He therefore is but isn't Yahweh. It's the same with the Spirit. The Spirit is Yahweh, and so he is Jesus as well, but not incarnate or embodied. The Spirit is but isn't jesus, just as Jesus is but isn't Yahweh the Father.The same sort of "two Yahwehs" idea from the Old Testament is found in the New testament with respect to Jesus and the Spirit. That is the source of trinitarian theology. Viewed against this backdrop, the idea that Jesus and the Spirit might be identified with each other isn't so strange."

What New Testament verses existed in apostolic days? When Paul wrote "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, hat the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." in 2 Tim 3:16-17. The only scripture that existed was the Old Testament. Furthermore, Jesus and the apostles all kept the Sabbath. If Jesus is out example and he kept the Sabbath, should we not do likewise? If you say non-Jews are exempt from observing the 4th Commandment, which other commandments are we exempt from? One day, a Jew will rule the world forever and ever. What day will we worship on then?

Jesus said He and the Father are One. I read that as they are "the same". Jesus is the physical manifestation of Yahweh. Every time we read of the "angel of the Lord"or the "Word of the Lord" or the visible" LORD" in the OT, it is referring to the pre-incarnate Jesus. No one has ever seen the Father. Scripture says that we would die if we looked upon the Father. He is so different from us that seeing Him would completely overwhelm our physical senses and we would die - not just faint. Just my opinion.

I also belong to a group that honors the 7th day Sabbath of the Bible. We don't keep the multitude of traditions that have come down through men (like don't use hot water and don'd use light switches or elevator buttons); but we do avoid work that can be done on other days, and we spend much time in worship and study and family time. I ain't saying that is how everyone should keep the Sabbath - but it's how we keep it; and we are blessed. When looking at the things that God punished Israel for it is working on the Sabbath (violation of 4th Commandment) and worshipping other gods (violation of first commandment).

I am new to this topic and am too lazy to read through the previous 18 pages. Nonetheless, it is an interesting topic. IMHO, our ONLY chance of salvation is through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and our faith that Jesus is who He says He is and did what He said He did. The only qualification I see to receiving the GIFT of eternal life in the Kingdom is believing in the Lord Jesus. REWARDS is another discussion. That Is where I believe our works will come into account. I believer there is a hierarchy in the governance of heaven, just as there is a hierarchy here. For an extreme example, I believe that guys like Moses, John the Baptist, as Paul will hold a much higher office and authority than I will, because their works done in faith far exceed mine; and they SHOULD BE rewarded for that.

God bless you for your faith and faithfulness brother! You will be in my prayers.

I agree with Old Coot. The best way to prepare for the end of this age is to always be ready for Jesus to come. .Pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath rapture; the truth is that the righteous will be taken to heaven prior to the end of the age. I tend to believe it will happen immediately before the seven last plagues; but that is just my opinion. If I had my way, I would already be in the Kingdom!

I agree, the gifts of God will continue until they are no longer needed - in the Millennium. All of the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12 are still active today. Unfortunately, the evil one has a counterfeit gift to match each real gift that Paul mentions. Concerning tongues, I was helping at a bilingual evangelistic meeting by trying to pass out earphones to people who wanted to hear the message in Spanish. The people I tried to give them to turned them down, because the message I was hearing in perfect English they were in perfect Spanish! THAT was the true gift on tongues IMHO! Concerning healing, once we were praying over an older gentleman who had fallen off his bike and hit his head, compressing several discs in his neck. All of a sudden, he cried out in pain and told us to take our hands off of him. His upper back and neck appeared to be in serious spasms! He finally settled down; and was amazed at how much better he felt - he was healed! Yes - the gifts of the spirit are still alive and well among those who believe!

I respectfully disagree. God's unilateral covenant with Abram was for the Hebrew nation that Abram founded. The covenant was repeated to his son and grandson (Isaac and Jacob) respectively. As for as the demons being sent into 70 pigs, it was not a prophecy for regathering Israel; it was a prophecy about God eventually destroying the 70 gods whom God appointed over the nations when He disinherited them at Babel; and put them under the spiritual rulership of 70 angels; all of whom eventually rebelled against the Most High God. Genesis 10 mentions 70 nations in the table of nations. Bashan was the "high country" north of Israel, where Mt. Hermon is located. Mt. Hemon is where the ("sons of God" (fallen angels) came to "go into the daughters of men" to produce the Nephilim or giants of Genesis 6:1-5. That being said, God's promises to Abraham eventually applied to both ethnic and spiritual Israel. We who have been grafted into the root. When Paul says "all Israel will be saved, he is speaking of all those on earth at His coming who have overcome - both ethnic AND spiritual Israel. Dr Michael Heiser's book, "The Unseen Realm", goes into this in detail.

When I got upset at the church I used to belong to, I joined a Charismatic church where many of the members spoke in "tongues". I actually received this "gift" and had the same experience that RP mentioned. At first it was great! I would drive to work using and "perfecting" my new "gift"! It was very soothing and invigorating at the same time. I had no idea what I was saying, but it made me feel good - for a while. I started worrying about what I might actually be saying. What If I was actually cursing God instead of praising Him? I had no idea what I was saying; so how could I know if I was praising Him? I researched what I considered to be the "true" gift of tongues. In Acts, in seems that the true gift of tongues in people hearing in their own language rather speaking gibberish. Paul also implies that tongues is the least of the spiritual gifts rather than the greatest. It only edified me (i.e., made me feel better); and made those around me uncomfortable unless the shred the gift. I stopped using it about a year ago; and feel better for it. I also joined a traditional church that teaches the WHOLE Bible rather than just the warm fuzzy stuff.

Let's see - About 3,000 confirmed cases of the new coronavirus worldwide. 9 deaths. Compare that to 15 Million cases of flu this year in the U.S. alone; with over 10,000 deaths. Which sounds scarier? Which gets the most news?

No, brother; I'm cool with your response. I have believed that the dead are unconscious until the resurrection at the Second Coming for over 40 years now because to me, that is what the Bible teaches. For example: "Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten; Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun." (Eccl. 9:4-6) If the dead are immediately with the Lord or in hell, what is the need of a resurrection? If we are already alive in Jesus, why do we need to be resurrected? When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, If Lazarus was in the Kingdom, don't you think he would be mighty upset about being brought back to this miserable planet?

And what was that reason? Could it have been an error by a fallible scribe? We are to understand that the words of scripture are infallible. I believe the Bible is infallible in its original languages; but I don't necessarily believe that translations are infallible.

As I stated in an earlier post, Jesus made the promise in THIS DAY - the day He was hanging on the cross. The punctuation in the Bible was added by the translator; it was not put there by the writer. The translation could just as well have read: "I tell you TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise." meaning today while we are both hanging on these crosses until we die, that one day you will be with me in Paradise.

I respectfully disagree with this. IMHO, the second death is more than eternal separation from God; the second death is complete utter obliteration - being "uncreated" as it were. There is no coming back from the second death. Furthermore hades does not mean hell - that is a conception brought to us by Dante's "Inferno". Hades simply means the grave. I agree with whoever it was above that said the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable - a story meant to present a spiritual principle. IMHO, it was NOT the depiction of an actual occurrence. Just my opinion.

The part about Martin Luther Hating Jews comes from a book "When a Jew Rules the World" by Joel Richardson and a treatise by Martin Luther called "On the Jews and Their Lies". The part about Hitler frequently quoting Martin Luther came from a Prophecy Update by Pastor Brandon Holthaus of Rock Harbor Church in California. He has a 3-part series on YouTube that explains the history of suprcessionism quite well.

Replacement Theology began way back within a couple hundred years of Jesus death. Jews had been persecuting gentile Christians for a while; and these Gentile Christians reacted by accusing the Jews of killing Jesus. By the 4th Century AD, King Constantine made Christianity the state religion and basically outlawed the practice of Judaism. During the 11th century crusades, the Pope sanctioned Crusaders to kill Jews along the way to liberating Jerusalem. The Jews were blamed for the Black Plague because, while the general populace was dying like flies, the Jews were relatively untouched. Why? Because of their ceremonial sanitary habits and traditions (like washing one's hands or regular bathing). During the Inquisition, not only were "heretic" Christians burned at the stake, so were entire communities of Jews. Into the reformation, people like Martin Luther and Calvin wrote horrible things about the Jews; and proposed wiping them out. Hitler frequently quoted Martin Luther as justification for wiping out the Jews. Satan has convinced many that the Jews are forsaken by Christ and deserve to be exterminated. They will be surprised on the day they realize that a Jew is ruling the world from the throne of David in a restored Jerusalem, with a remnant of 144,000 believing Israelites ruling with Him as priests and kings!

The exact verse in Luke 23:43 reads: “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” In the Bible manuscripts, there was no punctuation. Punctuation was added by the translators. If one just moves the comma one word to the left, the bverse reads: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.” Changes the entire tenor of the verse. Moving the comma makes the statement say "I'm telling you right now, ultimately you will be with me in paradise."