IMAGE ... MARK ... NUMBER

[XRose]

Maybe having the mark on the right hand or forehead was a metaphorical way of explaining how chips, pins, cookies and fingerprint recognition works?

It's likely that Jesus coudl have produced and offered his debit card to pay the tax but as no card accepters existed the taxman would have been baffled so instead he said go catch a fish and it will have the coin in its mouth.

Which was actually just as unlikely as the people understanding cash cards in those days.

[XRose]

Could be.

But also Muslims get a deep mark on their forehead from pressing it to ground 5 times a day when worshipping the black stone idol they call allah.

The pagan religions are getting so radical and intolerant now that maybe in the last days they will all impose the mark on their members.

But we Christians don't need to worry anyway.

Edited March 13, 2020 by XRose
spelling

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, eileenhat said:

I did have a recent insight from the holy spirit that the mark on the hand simply means "those that have a hand in it", meaning those that are involved in the grand deception (NWO) on behalf of satan.

That's very interesting.  I've recently been looking into the possibility that "the number of his name" could be understood as "his group of people" or "those people who are of him."  Think of the song that says, "I want to be in that number, when the saints come marching in."  It's similar to that.  It's akin to being part of a group.  One thing that sent me down that road is Revelation 15:2.

• And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.  Revelation 15:2

The first thing that struck me was "victory over the number of his name."  How on earth do you have victory over a number if it's a value like 345?  That doesn't make any sense, but to have victory over a number of people, people associated with his name, makes perfect sense.  How this group of people relates to (600,60,6) or (666), I don't know, yet.  But I'm convinced that trying to reverse-engineer 666 via gematria and discover someone's name is the wrong approach.

Back to your insight, Rev 15:2 seems to support that as well.  The part in bold links his mark to the group associated with his name.  Most versions insert "and" before "over the number of his name" but that's an interpretation and not in the original text.  "The number of his name" appears to further define "his mark" which is consistent with your insight.

I still have some more thinking to do on this but I wanted to throw it out there for those who are inclined to engage in such things.  Someone else may have another piece of the puzzle.  I've come to the conclusion, though, that the gematria approach (numeric value of letters) is not what is intended and is a waste of time.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

That's very interesting.  I've recently been looking into the possibility that "the number of his name" could be understood as "his group of people" or "those people who are of him."  Think of the song that says, "I want to be in that number, when the saints come marching in."  It's similar to that.  It's akin to being part of a group.  One thing that sent me down that road is Revelation 15:2.

• And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.  Revelation 15:2

The first thing that struck me was "victory over the number of his name."  How on earth do you have victory over a number if it's a value like 345?  That doesn't make any sense, but to have victory over a number of people, people associated with his name, makes perfect sense.  How this group of people relates to (600,60,6) or (666), I don't know, yet.  But I'm convinced that trying to reverse-engineer 666 via gematria and discover someone's name is the wrong approach.

Back to your insight, Rev 15:2 seems to support that as well.  The part in bold links his mark to the group associated with his name.  Most versions insert "and" before "over the number of his name" but that's an interpretation and not in the original text.  "The number of his name" appears to further define "his mark" which is consistent with your insight.

I still have some more thinking to do on this but I wanted to throw it out there for those who are inclined to engage in such things.  Someone else may have another piece of the puzzle.  I've come to the conclusion, though, that the gematria approach (numeric value of letters) is not what is intended and is a waste of time.

That is interesting. I agree; gematria is more like sorcery than spiritual truth. Might as well go see an astrologer.

I think I would buy into that sense of the passage; that its the population that has the mark and worships the image. I'm going to look into the Greek on this one.

[canada]

The victors over the image mark and number sing the "Song of Moses" (Deut 32) and the Song of the Lamb.

This is noted in Rev 15:3 ... (153) ... if you read Moses Song and are familiar with the Reformation, I think you will see why the victors sing that particular song.

[canada]

Here is wisdom.  Let he who hath understanding count or calculate the number ... ... ...

For those who do not believe a form of gematria is involved, check out God's use of it in Psalm 118.

It is not a coincidence that the victors singing that specific song of Moses are located in Rev 15:3.

The mystery of the 153 fish in John 21:11 is associated with "peter" and those familiar with the Reformation may understand the significance.

[canada]

49 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Yes, here is wisdom. You quoted "Let he who hath understanding count or calculate the number ... ... ..." count the number of whom? Scriptures answer the question: Revelation 13:v.18- Let him that hath understanding COUNT (not calculate) the number of the Beast:

Question: What Beast?  The answer is: Revelation 13:v.11 -  

And I beheld ANOTHER Beast coming up out of the earth; and the Beast has two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a Dragon.    Question? A lamb has horns?  Why then the Beast like a lamb has two horns, and speaks as a Dragon?  It is emphasized in the verse 11 because it has an important significance. Do you know what is its significance?

the verse continues:

for it is the number of a Man - the Man Beast like a lamb, the Man of sin, son of perdition-; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.   The number of his NAME is 6 - 6 - 6.  What is the NAME of the Man Beast like a lamb? The key is his name to decipher this enigma.  

Revelation 13:v.17 - 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that has the MARK, or the NAME of the Beast loke a lamb, a flse lamb, precisely a false messiah, he messiah of the Jews, AN IMPOSTER(John 5:v.43) or the number of his name. What is the NAME of this Man Beast?   In fact he has NAME and SURNAMES from his parents, he has a nacionality, and must be revealed as a powerful MAN and be acclaimed as a messiah.  

Lots of talk ... but no evidence ... why? Because you are a futurist and can claim anything you wish.

As long as it does not come to pass, how can you be held accountable?

However, you will be held accountable if the next pope does not claim the name ... Paulus VII

PS ... count or reckon.

PPS ... the number of his name is 600 60 and 6 ... not 6-6-6

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That's very interesting.  I've recently been looking into the possibility that "the number of his name" could be understood as "his group of people" or "those people who are of him."  Think of the song that says, "I want to be in that number, when the saints come marching in."  It's similar to that.  It's akin to being part of a group.  One thing that sent me down that road is Revelation 15:2.

• And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.  Revelation 15:2

The first thing that struck me was "victory over the number of his name."  How on earth do you have victory over a number if it's a value like 345?  That doesn't make any sense, but to have victory over a number of people, people associated with his name, makes perfect sense.  How this group of people relates to (600,60,6) or (666), I don't know, yet.  But I'm convinced that trying to reverse-engineer 666 via gematria and discover someone's name is the wrong approach.

Back to your insight, Rev 15:2 seems to support that as well.  The part in bold links his mark to the group associated with his name.  Most versions insert "and" before "over the number of his name" but that's an interpretation and not in the original text.  "The number of his name" appears to further define "his mark" which is consistent with your insight.

I still have some more thinking to do on this but I wanted to throw it out there for those who are inclined to engage in such things.  Someone else may have another piece of the puzzle.  I've come to the conclusion, though, that the gematria approach (numeric value of letters) is not what is intended and is a waste of time.

I see it's mentioned twice in Revelation:

"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." – Rev 13:17

And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name." – Rev 15:2"

In 15:2 it's ' ek arithmos autos onoma', In 13:17 it's 'e arithmos autos onoma'. In 15:2 'kai' or 'and' does not appear so it would read, "...victorious over the beast and its image over the number of its name." Probably needs a semicolon, '...victorious over the beast and its image; over the number of its name."

In 13:17 what I see is a set of three options for those that want to buy or sell. Either they are going to sport the mark, the name of the beast, or the numerical equivalent of his name. I think the context accurately renders ' é ' as 'or' or 'either', maybe 'or else'. So 13:17 is telling us it's either the mark, the name, or the number of his name an individual willfully accepts by personal choice to be able to buy or sell.

It seems a bit unusual to me to put it like that. In looking at it and taking 'mark' and 'name' together it reads 'sealed under the authority' e.g., 'charagma onoma' or, "a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties, in the manifestation or revelation of the beast's character," in the conceptual rendering of the two words. Then I suppose the number would reflect both ideas in one, even though it's apparent to me the mark, name, or number can stand on it's own as the ticket to purchasing and selling.

So then it looks like the number here is just that, a number. It's representative of one's allegiance and can be worn or imprinted on the body either on the head or the forearm or hand, and it's some number of the beast's, or some entity's, choosing symbolizing a vital idea to the murderous agenda of Satan; allegiance to the rebellion and irrefutable connection to evil. As you say, it's the segregation. And this is the vehicle.

This is a vile form of control. No one will be able to buy or sell the merest item sans the mark, name or number. If it's true that victory comes over the beast in 15:2 that must include the win by refusal to be connected to the beast, partaking in his character by choosing to accept one of the forms of identification from 13:17. If it's a win over the mark and the name it's also a win over the number.

I don't see that change in 15:2 from a representative form of ID to a group associated with the opposition. Except for an absent conjunction the language is the same, the concept is the same, and for me the concept in 15:2 should and must follow the precedent of 13:17. The idea of 'over the number of his name' as 'the group associated' isn't invalid and it certainly could contain that idea as well; but I don't think one excludes the other. It's obvious there is a very large group of associates called by his name and while it's possible the idea has merit, I don't think the idea of 'victory over the associates' is proven here.

It's a huge win, isn't it? Refuse the ID, which includes the number, and starve to death in a month. Worse, die of thirst in a week or less. How would there be any time to refuse to worship the image and be killed for that when anyone without the ID is dead in short order? It's going to be intense for sure.

That being said, I do believe there is a victory over the opposition involving personal contact and behavior which goes beyond choosing sides and that's the image. In thinking about that we do have a large opposition group over which victory equals death and life equals defeat.

It's another discussion but I wanted to offer a contrast.

"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."  Who or what is doing the killing? Some think the image of the beast is a single huge image like Nebuchadnezzar's statute. I see this as personal icons fashioned individually from a range of materials and given life by the second beast. There will be millions of them. Detectors and proximity alarms. Rooting out the believers and killing them on the spot. Maybe through supernatural means, maybe by the image holder, maybe by the crowd. 

I think there is ample evidence for the existence of millions of images of the beast, if we wanted to have that discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Diaste

[Diaste]

On 2/13/2020 at 10:46 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Hey Diaste,

Yes, this is certainly symbolic and a good representation. This is but a small example of where and which biblical translations come into play. These headbands and wrist bands would be a symbol or representation of a mark or symbol "ON" the forehead, or right hand. Most modern Bible translations have "ON" the right hand or forehead. The KJV and older Bibles have "IN" the right hand or forehead. That little two letter word makes a world of difference of what it could be. Which translations are accurate?

That's the reason I stay away from bible scholars. I'm not sure what leads them to 'in' as the Greek word is where we get the prefix for 'epidermis'. It's a covering, so it would be 'on' like our skin, it covers our body. It's possible some of the older translations suffered from popular concepts of the day. Maybe they were thinking of 'inclusion' and not 'surrounded by'. So in the mind of the translators of years past they could be thinking 'including the mark with the head or hand' and not infusing with the skin, like a tattoo.

The Greek 'epi' is unequivocal; it's 'on' or 'upon' and I cannot find a case where it's used as the idea of an indelible mark in the skin.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It's obvious there is a very large group of associates called by his name and while it's possible the idea has merit, I don't think the idea of 'victory over the associates' is proven here.

I was thinking more along the lines of "the associates" being those who are working behind the scenes to setup the conditions that will facilitate the mark, not necessarily those who accept it.  Victory over the mark is the same as victory over those who set it up.  Those who set it up are doing so for him.  They are his group, his number.  That's the understanding of "the number of his name" that I've been mulling over.