iamlamad Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 14, 2020 In John 3 Jesus is clear that unless one is born again, they cannot see or enter "the Kingdom of God." I think many believers substitute "kingdom of heaven" here: that unless someone is born again, they cannot ever enter heaven. The first question then is this: what is the full meaning here of "Kingdom of God." I think most people on this thread would agree that the born again walk was just NOT Available to the saints under the Old Testament. So IF the first question is that "kingdom of heaven" is included in "kingdom of God" in that no one not born again can enter heaven - then WHEN were the Old Testament saints born again? Jesus is very clear that old Testament saints had to go to Abraham's bosom or paradise after death in his story of the rich man and Lazarus. I believe Jesus emptied Paradise and took them all to heaven. Finally, when or where in Revelation would be the resurrection of the Old Testament saints? Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branchesofHim Posted April 18, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 211 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,463 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 759 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/09/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/23/1966 Share Posted April 18, 2020 This was the resurrection of the Old Testament saints as recorded in the New Testament. Shalom. Matthew 27:[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; [52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted April 19, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,367 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,340 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 19, 2020 I don't make a distinction between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven. Matthew appears to prefer the latter phrase - but in my mind, they both refer to God's kingdom; i.e. where God rules; ideally, in the heart of every Christian. As such, Christians are citizens of this kingdom; i.e. foreigners in the world. Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” I have always understood the Old Testament saints are raised in Revelation 20:13 when "Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlessedCreator Posted April 20, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/16/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted April 20, 2020 (edited) The kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven are one in the same I believe. Ellicott commentary on Matthew 3:2: "The kingdom of heaven.—The phrase is used by St. Matthew about thirty times, and by him only among the New Testament writers. In the Greek the form is plural, “the kingdom of the heavens,” probably as an equivalent for the Hebrew word, which was dual in its form. The name, as descriptive of the kingdom of the Messiah, had its origin in the vision of Daniel 7:13, where the kingdom of “one like the Son of Man” is contrasted with those of earthly rulers. To Gentile readers—to whom the term would convey the thought of the visible firmament, not of the invisible dwelling-place of God—the term might have been misleading, and therefore in the Gospels intended for them “the kingdom of God” (which occurs sometimes in St. Matthew also, 6:13; 12:28) is used instead of it. It is probable that both terms were used interchangeably by the Baptist and our Lord, and the systematic change is suggestive as showing that the writers of the Gospels did not feel themselves bound to a purely literal report or rendering of their words." To be born again means to be transformed by God into a new moral life. One live in strict obedience unto God's will and not our own anymore. Edited April 20, 2020 by BlessedCreator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted April 21, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,468 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,379 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 21, 2020 On 4/14/2020 at 12:04 PM, iamlamad said: In John 3 Jesus is clear that unless one is born again, they cannot see or enter "the Kingdom of God." I think many believers substitute "kingdom of heaven" here: that unless someone is born again, they cannot ever enter heaven. The first question then is this: what is the full meaning here of "Kingdom of God." I think most people on this thread would agree that the born again walk was just NOT Available to the saints under the Old Testament. So IF the first question is that "kingdom of heaven" is included in "kingdom of God" in that no one not born again can enter heaven - then WHEN were the Old Testament saints born again? Jesus is very clear that old Testament saints had to go to Abraham's bosom or paradise after death in his story of the rich man and Lazarus. I believe Jesus emptied Paradise and took them all to heaven. Finally, when or where in Revelation would be the resurrection of the Old Testament saints? Thanks for your input. For brevity and not verifying and including scriptures, I'll give you my opinion based on my memory. As always, this is my thoughts and opinion and not necessary correct. I think the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Heaven" are not used interchangeably and are distinct and separate. I'm not saying they cannot exist at the same place at the same time. There are eight kingdoms addressed in the Bible; (1) The kingdom of God. (2) Satan's kingdom. (3) Gentile kingdom. (4) The Jewish kingdom [Israel]. (5) The kingdom of heaven. (6) Antichrist's kingdom. (7) Christ's kingdom. (8) The Father's kingdom. It would take a lot of explanation to list the differences between the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God, so I'll just touch on it. The kingdom of heaven: is the kingdom that God intends for this earth. It is as physical and earthly as is any kingdom in world history. When it comes to power, it will replace 'all' earthly kingdoms. It is not heaven ruling heaven; it is heaven ruling earth through men. I believe King David will have a big part during the millennial reign. When were Old Testament saints born again? Same way as today, only they were looking forward to the Cross, and we look back at the Cross and what Jesus did for us. O.T. saints and people were saved just as Abraham was: Galatians 3:6 (KJV) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [Faith, trust and belief in the One true living God] I believe Old Testament saints and the saints martyred in the tribulation will be resurrected at the end of the tribulation. The dead and lost will be resurrected and stand before the Great White Throne for judgment directly after the millennium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted April 21, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,468 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,379 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 21, 2020 19 minutes ago, Sonshine said: Greetings, iamlamad.... Those people that lived before Christ paid the price on the Cross were preached the Gospel by Jesus Himself when His flesh was still in the tomb. 1 Peter 4:6 King James Version (KJV) 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. John 5:25 King James Version (KJV) 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Say hey Sonshine! How very true. Prior to the Cross, everyone went to Hades upon physical death. Hades was divided into two compartments divided by a great gulf [Abraham's bosom, paradise, and the torment side]. How did people get in the paradise side prior to the Cross? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted May 6, 2020 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2020 On 4/14/2020 at 12:04 PM, iamlamad said: In John 3 Jesus is clear that unless one is born again, they cannot see or enter "the Kingdom of God." I think many believers substitute "kingdom of heaven" here: that unless someone is born again, they cannot ever enter heaven. The first question then is this: what is the full meaning here of "Kingdom of God." I think most people on this thread would agree that the born again walk was just NOT Available to the saints under the Old Testament. So IF the first question is that "kingdom of heaven" is included in "kingdom of God" in that no one not born again can enter heaven - then WHEN were the Old Testament saints born again? Jesus is very clear that old Testament saints had to go to Abraham's bosom or paradise after death in his story of the rich man and Lazarus. I believe Jesus emptied Paradise and took them all to heaven. Finally, when or where in Revelation would be the resurrection of the Old Testament saints? Thanks for your input. The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom. Its this one...."the born again are translated from Darkness to LIGHT". Jesus is the "Light of the World", and the Born again are "Children of the LIGHT" Its this....Romans 14.... "For the kingdom of God is righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."" Its the Spiritual Kingdom of God, that we are Born again >INTO.... The KOHeaven is a earthly situation that Christ will Rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts