other one Posted April 22, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,221 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,944 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted April 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Billiards Ball said: I'm okay with your alternative presentation of the trinity/triunity/three persons, but you haven't answered why a singular "Me" in Isaiah 46:9 avoids a contradiction. since they are a single body the me is referring to them all... Jesus is/was and always be Yahweh. He was/is and always be the spokes person and active entity here for them in our world. The Father has the resources and Jesus as Yahweh actually created the world and all in it... it was he that Moses Aaron and the elders saw but were not hurt... When the rest of the bible is telling you that there are three of them and you focus on one single verse tell him he's just looking for something to question the rest of the Bible... it should be obvious that we don't understand the context of that one verse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiards Ball Posted April 22, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,502 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 662 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 22, 2020 43 minutes ago, other one said: since they are a single body the me is referring to them all... Jesus is/was and always be Yahweh. He was/is and always be the spokes person and active entity here for them in our world. The Father has the resources and Jesus as Yahweh actually created the world and all in it... it was he that Moses Aaron and the elders saw but were not hurt... When the rest of the bible is telling you that there are three of them and you focus on one single verse tell him he's just looking for something to question the rest of the Bible... it should be obvious that we don't understand the context of that one verse. That's not how Bible study works--we should be able to discern what is happening from the context... I would say the context is sometimes the Spirit, sometimes the Son, and sometimes the Father have words for us in either testament. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted April 22, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,221 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,944 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted April 22, 2020 33 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said: That's not how Bible study works--we should be able to discern what is happening from the context... I would say the context is sometimes the Spirit, sometimes the Son, and sometimes the Father have words for us in either testament. and I say that your friend is not understanding the context of the scripture you posted.. or it would agree with all the rest of the bible... and that's how Bible study should go unless you believe there are outright discrepancies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted April 22, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.95 Reputation: 7,797 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said: I'm okay with your alternative presentation of the trinity/triunity/three persons, but you haven't answered why a singular "Me" in Isaiah 46:9 avoids a contradiction. And the account about Sodom. And Yahweh rained down fire from Yahweh... In Gen 18:17-19, where YHWH is talking and then refers to Himself in the third person twice: "The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has promised him." The two Yahwehs was historically accepted by Rabbis until the advent of Christianity. That is why they dissed the LXX in favor of their rewrite in the Masoretic texts where they removed embarrassing passages like that pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiards Ball Posted April 22, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,502 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 662 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: And the account about Sodom. And Yahweh rained down fire from Yahweh... In Gen 18:17-19, where YHWH is talking and then refers to Himself in the third person twice: "The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has promised him." The two Yahwehs was historically accepted by Rabbis until the advent of Christianity. That is why they dissed the LXX in favor of their rewrite in the Masoretic texts where they removed embarrassing passages like that pretty much. I'm a Jew and aware of this--group up with--not two Yahwehs--but the Father in Heaven and the Ruach HaKodesh (Spirit-the-Holy) in the scriptures and liturgy. You can find the son also. However, I'm asking for evidence about Isaiah without resorting to other books, like Genesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiards Ball Posted April 22, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,502 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 662 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 22, 2020 16 minutes ago, other one said: and I say that your friend is not understanding the context of the scripture you posted.. or it would agree with all the rest of the bible... and that's how Bible study should go unless you believe there are outright discrepancies. There *seems* to be, since God is speaking in the singular about Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAZARD Posted April 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,830 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted April 22, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Billiards Ball said: Besides giving an unorthodox position on the trinity/triunity of God, you have not answered my question--the Isaiah quote says "To whom will you compare [the singular] me?" Your apparent answer--" . . . The other two like you, over there". This does not answer my question regarding Isaiah 46:9, and actually increases the contradiction posed by that verse. 1 John 5:7 For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, the WORD, and the HOLY GHOST: and these three are one. 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: AND THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE. If all three are witnesses, then they must be separate persons. One person cannot be three witnesses in any court on Earth or in Heaven. The water and the blood simply confirm the intelligent testimonies of the three persons of the Godhead and give additional weight to the sonship of Jesus. Three witnesses of the Humanity and Sonship: 1. The Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus at His water baptism (Mat. 3:13-17). 2. The water - threefold witness; (1). Water baptism symbolizing His own death, burial, and resurrection (Mat. 3:13-170. (2). Water of the Word bearing witness to the incarnation (Isa. 7:14;9:6-7; Mat. 1:23; Luke 1:34-35) (3). Water and blood at the crucifixtion testifying of His humanity (John 19:34). 3. The blood, testifying not only the humanity and sonship of Jesus Christ, but guaranteeing redemption from sin (Mt. 26:28; Acts 20:28; Eph. 1:14; Col. 1:20-22; Heb. 9:14-26; 10:1-23; 1 John 1:7). Agree to the point of the humanity and sonship of Jesus. If we receive witness of sinful men who can so easily deceive, we should gladly receive the witness of God who cannot possibly deceive. God's witness of His Son are greater than all men. Every unbeliever receives the fruit of His own rejection of God (John 3:36). Who raised the Word who was God and who became flesh? And where is Jesus seated with in Heaven now? Where is the Holy Spirit, who the Father and Jesus sent? Should keep you busy for a while! Edited April 22, 2020 by HAZARD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted April 22, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,221 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,944 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted April 22, 2020 22 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said: There *seems* to be, since God is speaking in the singular about Himself. sounds more like we are talking about yourself instead of a friend.... i would look at the verse in Hebrew and you will see that the word me is added to the sentence by the translators... so I would just say that the word could be just as easily stated as us instead of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiards Ball Posted April 23, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,502 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 662 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 23, 2020 15 hours ago, other one said: sounds more like we are talking about yourself instead of a friend.... i would look at the verse in Hebrew and you will see that the word me is added to the sentence by the translators... so I would just say that the word could be just as easily stated as us instead of me. No, I gave my friend my apologetics for the issue, as above in this thread. I would tell if I had a concern--I worked out these issues long ago, as a Jewish convert. There is no translation that says "us" instead of me, so I would disagree with your Hebrew interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiards Ball Posted April 23, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,502 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 662 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 23, 2020 15 hours ago, HAZARD said: 1 John 5:7 For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, the WORD, and the HOLY GHOST: and these three are one. 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: AND THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE. If all three are witnesses, then they must be separate persons. One person cannot be three witnesses in any court on Earth or in Heaven. The water and the blood simply confirm the intelligent testimonies of the three persons of the Godhead and give additional weight to the sonship of Jesus. Three witnesses of the Humanity and Sonship: 1. The Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus at His water baptism (Mat. 3:13-17). 2. The water - threefold witness; (1). Water baptism symbolizing His own death, burial, and resurrection (Mat. 3:13-170. (2). Water of the Word bearing witness to the incarnation (Isa. 7:14;9:6-7; Mat. 1:23; Luke 1:34-35) (3). Water and blood at the crucifixtion testifying of His humanity (John 19:34). 3. The blood, testifying not only the humanity and sonship of Jesus Christ, but guaranteeing redemption from sin (Mt. 26:28; Acts 20:28; Eph. 1:14; Col. 1:20-22; Heb. 9:14-26; 10:1-23; 1 John 1:7). Agree to the point of the humanity and sonship of Jesus. If we receive witness of sinful men who can so easily deceive, we should gladly receive the witness of God who cannot possibly deceive. God's witness of His Son are greater than all men. Every unbeliever receives the fruit of His own rejection of God (John 3:36). Who raised the Word who was God and who became flesh? And where is Jesus seated with in Heaven now? Where is the Holy Spirit, who the Father and Jesus sent? Should keep you busy for a while! You still have not addressed my question regarding ISAIAH, however: 1) Jesus said His person and His works were two witnesses from one person. 2) Mary and Joseph "raised the Word who became flesh". 3) Jesus sat down with His Father on His throne, in the right hand and power of the Father. 4) The Spirit is on Earth, usually helping believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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