The Rapture Deception

[Diaste]

On 4/18/2020 at 1:04 PM, BlessedCreator said:

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on
him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:39
And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose
nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The word is clear, the resurrection happens on the LAST DAY.
Therefore the rapture also happens on the last day.

 

Maybe we can get a definition of 'on the last day', 'at the last day'?

Are we defining it as precisely 'the very last day ever'? Or a metaphor for a time?

I see this as the 'last day':

"and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;"

As shown below;

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon,"

the signs for days are no longer needed. So at the point when the signs for days are no longer needed days have ended, and it doesn't have anything to do with a calendar or a prophetic time span.

[The Light]

On 4/18/2020 at 2:04 PM, BlessedCreator said:

 

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This tells us the resurrection happens first and THEN the rapture happens.
Why is this important?
Because if we can figure out when the resurrection happens then we can know
exactly when the rapture happens because it takes place right after.

Thankfully God is not the author of confusion and has not left us without sound doctrine so that
we are not left in the dark concerning these things.
The Bible tells us 5 different times in the gospel of John when the resurrection takes place.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Hello BC,

Welcome to the forum. I see many fallacies in what you are saying. Let's start here. So you present us a scriptural fact and say that the Word says that a rapture happens just after a resurrection, and that occurs at the last day. Nice job, you are correct. A rapture will occur on the last day. I see problems, don't you? Try this out.

The Vince Lombardi Trophy is presented to the winner of the Super Bowl. The rapture will happen at the last day. Those are facts that lead you to a conclusion. However, have you considered there is more than one super bowl? We know there is. Maybe you should consider there is more than one last day. There is a last day for the Gentile Church and there will be a last day for the 12 tribes.

Most people think that the tribulation period is all about the Church and the Church going through the tribulation. The 70th week of Daniel is the time of Jacobs trouble, not the time of trouble for the Gentile Church. The Word says:

Dan 9

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The seventieth week of Daniel is all about the 12 tribes. The Church is already in heaven before the 7 year tribulation. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood and the ark doors are closed. Part of Israel will have it's blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That is a last day. The ark doors are shut. The foolish virgins will say open the door Lord and the Lord will say, I know you not. There will be another last day before the Day of the Lord occurs, that begins with the day of His wrath.

 

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The word is clear, the resurrection happens on the LAST DAY.
Therefore the rapture also happens on the last day.

The Word is clear, the resurrection and the rapture happen on the last day. There is a last day when the fullness of the Gentiles come in before the seals are opened and there will be a last day when there is a gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

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If you are expecting the true messiah Jesus Christ to return before the very end to save
you from the persecution of the Antichrist and his wicked followers then you are actually going to get
the false messiah/Antichrist who comes to deceive the world into believing that he is God.

No, I don't think so. If you are a Gentile and have heard the word, the Messiah will return before the seals are opened. We can see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. The rest of the Gentiles that have heard the word will receive strong delusion and believe the lie. So the Church will be raptured before the antichrist is around. The foolish virgins will believe the lie.

 

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2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away
first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What day is being talked about? The Day of the Lord. And there will be a gathering from HEAVEN AND EARTH before the Day of the Lord. The Church will be gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes that are across the earth will be gathered from the earth. The 144,000 first fruits are proof and guarantee of this harvest. Only the nation of Israel and unbelievers will be on earth when the day of the Lord starts. Those Jews across the earth will have their blindness removed and become believers. The 70th week is not about the Gentile Church.

 

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Christians have been martyred (killed for their faith) the last 2000 years since Christ came.
They are being martyred now, even openly in eastern countries. And we will continue to be martyred until the very end.
Few will survive to take part in the rapture. Nobody is getting an escape card in these last days.

The 70th week is about the Jews. The fullness of the Gentiles will be over before the 70th week begins.
 

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It is our duty as Christians to share the truth (edify) with our brothers and sisters.

If you want to share the truth, this might be good.

Matt 24

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

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There are many that are deceived by this false doctrine, prepared to receive the coming Antichrist.
Please share with them what you have just learned.

Much of what is claimed by those that teach a pretrib rapture is incorrect. And we can prove that it is incorrect. However, that does not prove that there will not be a pretrib rapture. Just like you proving that there will a rapture on the last day. That does not prove that there will not be a pretrib rapture.

 

 

[choir loft]

On 4/18/2020 at 3:04 PM, BlessedCreator said:

The rapture doctrine comes from 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 Verse 17.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with
the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
* * * *
It is our duty as Christians to share the truth (edify) with our brothers and sisters.
There are many that are deceived by this false doctrine, prepared to receive the coming Antichrist.
Please share with them what you have just learned.

Jesus' words:

Consider the prayer of Jesus who said, "...I ask that you (Father) NOT take them out of the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one." - John 17:15

Logic of scripture:

Consider also this passage from Luke 17:34-37, "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.” "Where, Lord?” they asked.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”

Rapture fans mistakenly assume those who are taken will ascend to be with the Lord in the air. If the passage is read according to its words without false assumptions, those who are taken will be DESTROYED by demons.  Read it again for the first time.  Where will they be taken?  They will be taken to a place where vultures, carrion birds, gather to consume THE DEAD.  This is NOT a nice place.  It is a place where they will be devoured by spiritual carrion eaters.  These beings are obviously not angels of God.  

What does this tell us about assumptions made of the Rapture doctrine?  Logically it tells us the dogma is false.

History

History itself proves the doctrine of the Rapture, over five hundred years old, was created by the Catholic church to oppose interpretations of scripture by the Protestant Reformation.   The theology is generally called "Futurism", but ought not be confused with the Futurist movement in the arts.  If you google search, look for 'theological futurism'.

In 1545 the Catholic church convened a Counter-Reformation at the Council of Trent.  Look it up.  The Jesuit order was formed during that period, which had as its commission to destroy by whatever means necessary the Protestant movement and its theology.   Its leader was called 'the Black Pope'.

In 1590, Francisco Ribera published a commentary as a counter interpretation of the book of Revelation.   Futurism, as it was known until the mid-19th century, was its fruit.   Basically the Futurist doctrine holds that NOTHING HAPPENED in world history from Jesus' crucifixion until some time in the distant future - our future.  In point of fact, the book of Revelation is quite specific about identifying the kingdom of the beast (the Roman Catholic church) (*) as well as the removal of the pope by death and his return to eminence (Revelation chapter 13)

In the mid-19th century, occult spiritualism swept across America.  John Nelson Darby took advantage of its popularity and reformatted the papist doctrine of Futurism. He called its evacuation the Rapture and redefined Biblical references to the Tribulation so as to place it some time in the distant future. Despite warnings by the leaders of the Protestant Reformation, Protestants today march in lock-step with the demonic doctrines and blaspheme of the Roman Catholic church and its leader the pope. (*)

One of the most heinous acts in violation of scripture is Sunday worship.  The 4th commandment says to remember the Sabbath day, Saturday, and keep it holy.  The Catholic church forced its members to worship on the pagan day of the sun instead.  Those that refused were punished with torture and all manner of social ostracism.  Today Protestants are in lock-step with Roman anti-Christ doctrine and follow the Pope into error by means of the theology of the Rapture, of Futurism and of deliberate violation of God's LAW.

Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the LAW.  I came to fulfill it." - Matthew 5:17  The LAW still stands, but the abomination of the Catholic church as well as Protestants who follow it deny God's LAW altogether.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

None of this will sit well with those who are comfortable with their SIN and error.   It is true, nonetheless, and if the reader is at all motivated to seek God's honest truth in the Bible he or she will discover everything I have written here is true.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) BLASPHEME

And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle and those who dwell in heaven. - Revelation 13:6

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." - Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, Cities Petrus Bertanous.

HEAD WOUND

"One of the heads of the beast appeared to be mortally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world marveled and followed the beast." - Revelation 13:3

Mortal Wound
February 10, 1798 - troops of Napoleon Bonaparte enter Rome arrest Pope Pius VI and seize church property/real estate. Pius VI later dies in prison.

Mortal Wound healed
June 7, 1929 - The Lateran Pact/Treaty in which Benito Mussolini ceded 110 acres of property in Rome to establish Vatican City as a sovereign city-state.  It also restores the Papacy.

The modern authority of the Pope is thus based upon a decision by a fascist dictator, not God.  

 

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

You're going to hang your hat on the above? Paul is pointing to something in particular? Um...yeah. THE rebellion. THE defection. THE revolt. Since when is apostasia defined as a 'snatching away to be taken to anther place'? Hmm??

 

Don't be fearful, the REBELLION MUST COME first makes zero sense contextually brother. Don't be fearful, OUR DEPARTURE must come first makes plenty of sense. Especially reading the actual SCRIPTURES.

 2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech {Urgently proclaim to you} you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That{this is what they were urgently proclaiming} ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand { or, FEAR NOT that the Wrath of God is upon you/DOTL}.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away {Departure First as the first 7 English translations stated} first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Now show me where THE FAITH is pointed towards anywhere in the passage !! FEAR NOT for the Rebellion must come first doesn't even make any contextual sense here brother because we don't even know when Jesus' Second Coming will be, nor does Jesus know, nor did he even hint at it. So, you are saying FEAR NOT the Rebellion must come first, but you, nor the Thessalonians, nor Paul could know when that would take place........AND.........according to you guys they should thus have TREPIDATION and fears, because when it does come the Church has to go through these EVIL, TROUBLES !! So why did Paul tell them NOT TO WORRY? Can you explain that? No you can't, but it doesn't really matter, what matters is sticking with a point. But every point you try to prove gets shot down brother because the Rapture is indeed Pre 70th week tribulation. 

I just proved your understanding wrong above, it can never be about them FEARING a Departure of the Faith, because Jesus tells us we do not know when he is coming back for the Second Advent, Jesus has said he doesn't even know. So, if that had happened suddenly during the time that the Thessalonians were alive, then Paul would have told them an UNTRUTH wouldn't he have? Secondly, you don't speak to people about things they have no way of comprehending, the Church in Paul's day had NO COMPREHENSION of what a Departure of the Faith would even entail, they were going through great troubles in their day and very few people were even Christians in there time via the First Century AD, people had yet to even come to the faith in great numbers. Their thoughts would have never conceptualized this GREAT DEPARTURE FROM THE FAITH !! BUT, according to you guys, the Thessalonians would indeed have to go through these GREATEST EVER TROUBLES.........If the Departure came during their lifetimes, and Paul had no idea when the Rapture was coming because Jesus doesn't even know, so why would Paul tell them to FEAR NOT, when he actually knew that all the Church {ACCORDING TO YOU GUYS} would go through this coming GREATEST EVER TROUBLES ? 

You see, your understanding doesn't work out brother. But my understanding via the Holy Spirits guidance to me, does work out. 

Paul told them Hey, Don't fear that the Day of the Lord God's Wrath is upon you, I have told you before have I not ? That we must DEPART {Be Gathered unto Christ} and the Anti-Christ must show up, and both of these things must happen BEFORE the DOTL is upon the world., so FEAR NOT. {THAT WORKS}

Your understanding changes nothing, the Thessalonians should have still been living in fear, according to the way you guys believe, because Paul didn't know when Jesus was coming back, thus he had no reason to assuage their fears of going through the DOTL. You guys get so caught up in an idea, then you have trouble seeing anything else, even when somebody breaks it down to you. I image, those people Paul mentioned, in those LETTERS he mentioned that had written unto the Thessalonians, and gotten them to fear these things, were telling them the exact same things you guys preach, that the Church is going to go through the 70th Week Tribulation period or WRATH OF God !! That;s exactly what you guys teach right ? 

THE GATHERING is in verse 1........Paul is POINTING at the Gathering !! 

FAITH is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the whole passage brother !!

You allow the KJV translators to persuade you here. They changed the word from what the First 7 translations had used....this is why I don't love using Paul's Epistles as the FINAL WORD on a lot of things, he was vague for a reason, he wasn't writing scriptures, he was writing letters to Churches to admonish in some cases and to encourage others in some cases. If me and you had a long conversation on the phone about an old baseball game and mentioned a few scores and a title won by the New York Yankees, and then in a letter we stated the scores again, and a title, but didn't mention the teams, there is no way someone else reading those letters could pick up on what were were talking about over the phone and thus name the teams and the title years. They could narrow it down by the scores maybe a little bit, that is what we get in many places with Paul's Epistles, we get a "WHEN I WAS WITH YOU I TOLD YOU THESE THINGS" type of reference. And then people can't clearly interpret what he was saying, which is why we have to be very careful and use the TOTAL CONTEXT of the passage as well as Scriptures elsewhere to tie everything together. Like Rev,. 19, like 1 Cor. 15 etc. etc. 

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

Pretty significant occurrence when the people of God turn away from God in favor a false god. 

I didn't say the passage was speaking about the faith. You keep bringing that up with your insistence that 'dicessio' means 'forcibly taken from one place to go to another'. 

I'm saying that the history of the definition and usage and context of 'dicessio' was in the political arena when a politician would suddenly diverge from a previous policy to endorse another. But it was actually a bit more serious than that as by way of analogy it would be the same as a politician switching from the Republican to the Democrat party today. So as to the usage of 'dicessio' in early versions of scripture it's in keeping with the idea of revolt, a strong term, while 'dicessio' goes right to the heart of the matter; changing ideology, defection.

Translations of discessio

noun

departure {This comes up first over all other understandings via the Latin}

discessus, exitus, profectio, egressus, digressus, discessio

division

divisio, partitio, portio, sejunctio, decuria, discessio

ordering

discessio

separation

separatio, discidium, digressio, abruptio, sejunctio, discessio

parting

divisio, digressus, discessus, divortium, divertium, discessio

withdrawal

decessio, receptus, apscessus, decessus, secessio, discessio

management

procuratio, administratio, dispensatio, tractatio, magisterium, discessio

dispersal

dissipatio, sparsio, dissupatio, diffugium, discursus, discessio

going

profectio, exscensio, incessus, itio, itus, discessio

dispersion

dispersio, dissipatio, dissupatio, diffugium, sparsio, discessio

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its a Departure, of the Church, that is why they are NOT TO FEAR............Its not a Departure from the Faith OR Paul would have simple told them, HEY,  BE STRONG, fear not, we must go through these GREATEST TROUBLES EVER if Jesus returns while we are alive !! 

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

Oh my word! It's clear you just have not looked into this. Apostasia is the word that appears in the text!! No other word. Just APOSTASIA!! 

Talk about super glued to a false teaching...How do you get from "apostasia: defection, revolt" to "episunagógé: a gathering together, an assembly"? 

So according to Ice then, 'defection, revolt' is equivalent to 'a gathering together'. I hope you don't really believe that.

Gay meant happy in the 1930s, you are depending way to much on how the words CHANGED.....I do not care about that, I am looking only at what Paul meant by it when HE USED THE Word !! 

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't know if you pay attention to the news or history but evil is not 'restrained'. There were just 10 people gunned down in Canada. So much for restraint.

He RESTRAIN'S these Evil Beast Powers from ruling the World, not individual men from loving evil. Notice the Greatest POWER in the World was built on Jesus Christ, the USA, and has been instrumental in Freedom the world over having championed Individual Liberties that come from God alone. Of course Satan has been creeping in the last 50 years via his Communistic Ways through Socialism. But that just shows what is about to befall this evil world. 

Restraining Beasts Powers is not the same as ALLOWING FREE WILL, and the love of evil if one chooses to follow that path. 

Hitler was RESTRAINED by God, as were all the other attempts that many can't even contemplate, like Charlemagne and Napoleon etc. etc. 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Don't be fearful, the REBELLION MUST COME first makes zero sense contextually brother. Don't be fearful, OUR DEPARTURE must come first makes plenty of sense. Especially reading the actual SCRIPTURES.

 2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech {Urgently proclaim to you} you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That{this is what they were urgently proclaiming} ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand { or, FEAR NOT that the Wrath of God is upon you/DOTL}.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away {Departure First as the first 7 English translations stated} first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Now show me where THE FAITH is pointed towards anywhere in the passage !! FEAR NOT for the Rebellion must come first doesn't even make any contextual sense here brother because we don't even know when Jesus' Second Coming will be, nor does Jesus know, nor did he even hint at it. So, you are saying FEAR NOT the Rebellion must come first, but you, nor the Thessalonians, nor Paul could know when that would take place........AND.........according to you guys they should thus have TREPIDATION and fears, because when it does come the Church has to go through these EVIL, TROUBLES !! So why did Paul tell them NOT TO WORRY? Can you explain that? No you can't, but it doesn't really matter, what matters is sticking with a point. But every point you try to prove gets shot down brother because the Rapture is indeed Pre 70th week tribulation. 

When one cannot see is it because they are truly blind or willfully so? The context is the day of the Lord, the Day of Christ, the coming of the Lord and the gathering. The Thessalonians feared the day of Christ was happening. If that was so they had missed the gathering as well because they knew the Day of the Lord and the gathering happen at the same time. 

They way you have it laid out the gathering must happen before the gathering.

That day shall not come....What day? The day of Christ and the gathering. That day shall not come except... Except what?  According to pretrib the gathering. How can the gathering happen before the gathering?

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

that the Church is going to go through the 70th Week Tribulation period or WRATH OF God !! That;s exactly what you guys teach right ? 

No. The 70th week is NOT the 'tribulation period' and it is NOT the Wrath of God. The moment of 'great tribulation' is within the 70th week only after the A of D and that moment is truncated as it's so horrific.

The Day of the Lord only begins after the days of great tribulation end sometime late in the last half of the week. 

Pretrib teaches the whole of the last week is the Wrath of God. You are mixing up doctrines. I guess I don't know what other people say about it but I do know what the scriptures say.

 l------------------------------------------70th Week------------------------------------------------l

 l--------------First Half------------l---Middle---l-----------Second Half--------------------l

 l------Beginning of sorrows------A of D----Great Tribulation----Wrath of God--l 

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Gay meant happy in the 1930s, you are depending way to much on how the words CHANGED.....I do not care about that, I am looking only at what Paul meant by it when HE USED THE Word !! 

And how do you know how Paul used the word? Did you talk to him? I don't think apostasia changed, I never said it did, you are saying it did, but it didn't. Apostasia has been defined the same way since it was used by Paul. You personally are changing the definition to fit your doctrine, as you have learned to do. I don't know why you cannot see that apostasia is in no way related to episunagógé, anistemi, or harpazo. The latter three speak to a caught up gathering the former relates a rebellion. 

I don't know why you cannot understand the gathering is an event in which we are not control. We are gathered by an outside force and it requires no activity on our part. Like ripe fruit or a harvest of wheat we are gathered and stored. It's not a departure, it's a harvest.

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Translations of discessio

noun

departure {This comes up first over all other understandings via the Latin}

division, ordering, separation, parting, withdrawal, management, dispersal, going, dispersion

 

.The above is your findings on the word dicessio. I agree. However, all are incorrect ideas as related to the gathering. 

"episunagógé: a gathering together, an assembly"

"episunagó: to gather together"

"harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away"

"apantésis: a meeting"

None of the above from the scriptures have anything to do with 'leaving' but all relate a 'coming together' while harpazo is the catching away to that meeting of the gathering. Your obsession with dicessio is one of division and withdrawal. No thank you.

 

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its a Departure, of the Church, that is why they are NOT TO FEAR............Its not a Departure from the Faith OR Paul would have simple told them, HEY,  BE STRONG, fear not, we must go through these GREATEST TROUBLES EVER if Jesus returns while we are alive !! 

You are wrong. You'll see.

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

He RESTRAIN'S these Evil Beast Powers from ruling the World, not individual men from loving evil. Notice the Greatest POWER in the World was built on Jesus Christ, the USA, and has been instrumental in Freedom the world over having championed Individual Liberties that come from God alone. Of course Satan has been creeping in the last 50 years via his Communistic Ways through Socialism. But that just shows what is about to befall this evil world. 

Restraining Beasts Powers is not the same as ALLOWING FREE WILL, and the love of evil if one chooses to follow that path. 

Hitler was RESTRAINED by God, as were all the other attempts that many can't even contemplate, like Charlemagne and Napoleon etc. etc. 

Hitler was restrained? Responsible for starting a war that killed 75 million people and he was restrained? WW1 killed 20 million. The Islamic wars over 700 years killed 250 million. That's what you call restraint?

But you of course are all wrong in this as well. It's the rebellion and the revealing of the beast that is restraining the appearance of the Lord and the gathering.

You'll see, and I'll be here for ya. 

 

 

[Justin Adams]

When the 'restrainer' (the restraining reason) is taken out of the way; it is a neuter thing. It is a 'thing'. I.e. the fullness of the Gentiles. Presently the lord God Himself is waiting on this 'thing' to be completed and waiting for that day...

Edited April 21, 2020 by Justin Adams

[The Light]

On 4/20/2020 at 9:51 AM, choir loft said:

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Jesus' words:

Consider the prayer of Jesus who said, "...I ask that you (Father) NOT take them out of the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one." - John 17:15

 

Jesus words identifying who is being talked about

Jesus is talking about those who have received His words. He is talking about the disciples.

John 17

⁸ For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

⁹ I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Quote

 

Logic of scripture:

Consider also this passage from Luke 17:34-37, "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.” "Where, Lord?” they asked.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”

 

Refuting your logic with scripture

First lets start with a proper translation, KJV. The correct word translated is eagles, not vultures.

Luke 17

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

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Rapture fans mistakenly assume those who are taken will ascend to be with the Lord in the air.

According to the Word of God rapture fans are correct.

Rev 14

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

We see in the Word that the believers go where the Lord is, in the clouds.

Then we see that the unbelievers remain on earth and are cast into the wrath of God

Rev 14

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

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If the passage is read according to its words without false assumptions, those who are taken will be DESTROYED by demons.  Read it again for the first time.  Where will they be taken?  

I read it again, though there was no need, and it says that the eagles will be taken to the clouds where the Lord is.

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They will be taken to a place where vultures, carrion birds, gather to consume THE DEAD.  This is NOT a nice place.  It is a place where they will be devoured by spiritual carrion eaters.  These beings are obviously not angels of God.

These are the things that you say because you are using an incorrect translation of scripture. Secondly, what you say is not supported by other scriptures, whereas the eagles taken to the clouds is supported by other scriptures.

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What does this tell us about assumptions made of the Rapture doctrine?

  After an examination of the facts, I would say the rapture doctrine is spot on.

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Logically it tells us the dogma is false.

Logically, if you use a bad translation, you arrive at an incorrect conclusion.

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 4/21/2020 at 6:25 AM, Diaste said:

When one cannot see is it because they are truly blind or willfully so? The context is the day of the Lord, the Day of Christ, the coming of the Lord and the gathering. The Thessalonians feared the day of Christ was happening. If that was so they had missed the gathering as well because they knew the Day of the Lord and the gathering happen at the same time. 

They way you have it laid out the gathering must happen before the gathering.

That day shall not come....What day? The day of Christ and the gathering. That day shall not come except... Except what?  According to pretrib the gathering. How can the gathering happen before the gathering?

Nope, the Rapture is the Gathering, the Day of the Lord starts Gods Wrath which runs for 1260 days. Then the Second Coming happens with Jesus and the Bride returning from Heaven to earth. They were fearing they were in the DOTL, which  starts on day 1260 out of 2520 days of the 70th week. But Paul told them that can not be the case because the Departure [of them/the Church] must happen before the Man of Sin AND the DOTL comes, they both come at the same time, on day 1261, the 1260, meaning there is 1260 days Remaining until Jesus' Second  Coming.

The Gathering doesn't happen on the DOTL, its Pre 70th week to start with, but you have it and the Second Coming on the same day it seems. It couldn't happen there either, because the DOTL lasts 42 months. 

On 4/21/2020 at 6:25 AM, Diaste said:

No. The 70th week is NOT the 'tribulation period' and it is NOT the Wrath of God. The moment of 'great tribulation' is within the 70th week only after the A of D and that moment is truncated as it's so horrific.

The Day of the Lord only begins after the days of great tribulation end sometime late in the last half of the week. 

Pretrib teaches the whole of the last week is the Wrath of God. You are mixing up doctrines. I guess I don't know what other people say about it but I do know what the scriptures say.

 l------------------------------------------70th Week------------------------------------------------l

 l--------------First Half------------l---Middle---l-----------Second Half--------------------l

 l------Beginning of sorrows------A of D----Great Tribulation----Wrath of God--l 

Jesus said ALL TIME is tribulation. So that means you are in error on this subject. We have the  Church age tribulation period, we then have the 70th week tribulation period and then the GREATEST EVER Troubles which last 1260 days. The AoD does not start the Greatest ever troubles, that is a SIGN for the Jews to Flee Judea, it starts 30 days later at the 1260 Conquering by the Anti-Christ. It then lasts for 42 months, just like the Beasts reign. 

No it does not teach that, if some do, they are in error also. The 70th week is 3.5 years of FAKE PEACE {which is why the Red Horse takes away PEACE} But its still troubles because Jesus told us we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION while on earth, and that remains the case until Satan is thus defeated. 

The Beginning of Sorrows has nothing to do with the 70th week, the 70th week IS THE BABY !!

The Great TROUBLES and the Wrath of God cover the exact same 42 months. The Anti-Christ killing the Remnant Church, all the Jews he can get at and anyone who refuses to worship him as God for 42 months and God is JUDGING this evil earth for the same 42 month time period. 

On 4/21/2020 at 6:25 AM, Diaste said:

And how do you know how Paul used the word? Did you talk to him? I don't think apostasia changed, I never said it did, you are saying it did, but it didn't. Apostasia has been defined the same way since it was used by Paul. You personally are changing the definition to fit your doctrine, as you have learned to do. I don't know why you cannot see that apostasia is in no way related to episunagógé, anistemi, or harpazo. The latter three speak to a caught up gathering the former relates a rebellion. 

I don't know why you cannot understand the gathering is an event in which we are not control. We are gathered by an outside force and it requires no activity on our part. Like ripe fruit or a harvest of wheat we are gathered and stored. It's not a departure, it's a harvest.

Well of course it did, you are saying it means Rebellion, that is what Apostasy came to be known. The KJV made sure that the word MORPHED into that just like Gay used to mean only Happy. Now if you look up Gay it means something different, but the other word is still defined also, in 400 years the other word will be gone from the lexicon. The First 7 English Translations had DEPARTURE, and that which was going to DEPART at the Gathering/Rapture was the Church. Try as you might brother, the Rapture ain't going to happen after the 70th week begins. 

Just to let you know, this verse would not change anything the way you think it does anyway, you could have a REBELLION after the Rapture without the Church being here for it either. But that is not what it means, it the Departure of the Church, our mission is over, we are not needed on this  evil earth after Matthew 24:14. Because he would be saying the Rebellion and Anti-Christ BOTH have to come before the DOTL, so we can't be in the Day of the Lord, but that would change nothing via a Pre Trib Rapture, as you seem to asume.

 

On 4/21/2020 at 6:25 AM, Diaste said:

The above is your findings on the word dicessio. I agree. However, all are incorrect ideas as related to the gathering. 

"episunagógé: a gathering together, an assembly"

"episunagó: to gather together"

"harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away"

"apantésis: a meeting"

None of the above from the scriptures have anything to do with 'leaving' but all relate a 'coming together' while harpazo is the catching away to that meeting of the gathering. Your obsession with dicessio is one of division and withdrawal. No thank you.

 

If a group of People GATHER at a Restaurant can't they then DEPART for the Football game ? You, and others, seemingly get too caught up in your beliefs and you miss the simple things. I try everything brother. The Rapture will be pre 70th week.

On 4/21/2020 at 6:25 AM, Diaste said:

Hitler was restrained? Responsible for starting a war that killed 75 million people and he was restrained? WW1 killed 20 million. The Islamic wars over 700 years killed 250 million. That's what you call restraint?

But you of course are all wrong in this as well. It's the rebellion and the revealing of the beast that is restraining the appearance of the Lord and the gathering.

You'll see, and I'll be here for ya. 

Its in JUXTAPOSITION to being a Beast. Did Hitler become the 7th Head of the Beast ?

Edited April 22, 2020 by Revelation Man

[The Light]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

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When one cannot see is it because they are truly blind or willfully so? The context is the day of the Lord, the Day of Christ, the coming of the Lord and the gathering. The Thessalonians feared the day of Christ was happening. If that was so they had missed the gathering as well because they knew the Day of the Lord and the gathering happen at the same time. 

Exactly

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That day shall not come....What day? The day of Christ and the gathering. That day shall not come except... Except what?  According to pretrib the gathering. How can the gathering happen before the gathering?

Exactly. I believe in all the things that you are saying. And yet there will be a pretrib rapture.

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No. The 70th week is NOT the 'tribulation period'

It is the time of Jacobs trouble. Jacob will be in tribulation for one week. The Church will already be raptured BEFORE the 70th week begins. When the rapture occurs, the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. Then God removes part of Israel from blindness.

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and it is NOT the Wrath of God

Correct, it is not the wrath of God

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The moment of 'great tribulation' is within the 70th week only after the A of D and that moment is truncated as it's so horrific.

Exactly.

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The Day of the Lord only begins after the days of great tribulation end sometime late in the last half of the week.

The great tribulation is over at the end of the week, as immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns for the gathering. The Church is gathered from heaven and the twelve tribes across earth are gathered from the earth. The nation of Israel is yet blind and goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection. None of God people are appointed to wrath.

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Pretrib teaches the whole of the last week is the Wrath of God.

They do teach that and it is wrong. The Church is already in heaven before the 70th week begins. The 70th week is about the twelve tribes. It is the time of Jacobs trouble, and has nothing to do with the Church. The ark doors are closed and the foolish virgins are told that I don't know you.

 

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 l------------------------------------------70th Week------------------------------------------------l

  |------------------------70th Week-----------------------------|

The 70th week is the time of Jacobs trouble and has nothing to do with the Church. It is the time when God keeps his promise to His chosen people.

 

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 l------Beginning of sorrows------A of D----Great Tribulation----Wrath of God--l 

|------------Beginning of sorrows----Daily sacrifice taken away------A of D-----------Great Tribulation--------------|--Wrath of God--|

|---1st 4 seals (Beginning of sorrows)---Sacrifice taken away day 1185 --- A of D Day 2475 -- Great Tribulation 45's days long --|--wrath of God --|

The beginning of sorrows is the 1st four seals. The daily sacrifice is taken away in the midst of the week on day 1185. The Abomination of Desolation occurs 1290 days later on day 2475. The great tribulation is 45 days long. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns for the gathering. There is a gathering from heaven and earth. That is the end of the 70th week. Then the wrath of God begins which is time, times and half a time or 1260 days long.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by The Light

[BlessedCreator]

I believe the 70 weeks of Daniel have already been fulfilled. The last week being fulfilled in Christs time.