The Rapture Deception

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Yes... and I think I read them all. Sad to say many millions have been thus wasted. One thing is for sure. It was deliberately obscured by the Lord about the first advent, and only dim hints are available for the second. As the apostle said, 'had they but known, they never would have killed the King of Glory.."

So I suggest we are not SUPPOSED to know, since the principalities and powers will also not know either. There are many ex-sons of God that will hinder us enough anyway. They also do not know and any fear that folk feel about uncertain times is a transference from the dark side.

So why do we spin our wheels endlessly? - OH, maybe I do know because anything that can DELAY the 'fulfillment of the Gentiles' means the baddies get a reprieve.. Maybe we should get more folks saved and win the war of attrition that way. Perhaps have household barbeques for well spaced and masked unsaved neighbors. We can use the prophecy books to fuel the fires for ages.

Anyone that says they have the Eschaton all figured out, as Dr Heiser says, "you can safely ignore them".

And if I quote the whole passage, my answer would still be the same. The part in bold above is, frankly, anti-biblical.

[Justin Adams]

8 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

And if I quote the whole passage, my answer would still be the same. The part in bold above is, frankly, anti-biblical.

The apostle said: "If they had known, they never would have killed the King of Glory" That is the Biblical truth!

And if you call yourself a prophet, let me remind you of Jeremiah. Jer 23:17

17 They keep saying to those who despise Me, ‘The LORD says that you will have peace,’ and to everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart, ‘No harm will come to you.’ 
18 But which of them has stood in the council of the LORD to see and hear His word? Who has given heed to His word and obeyed it?

I hope you are not claiming to have stood in the Divine Council...

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Justin Adams

[WilliamL]

6 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

The apostle said: "If they had known, they never would have killed the King of Glory" That is the Biblical truth!

And entirely irrelevant to the point. More relevant would be these facts: Noah, Lot, and Moses were all warned beforehand by the Lord when judgment was at hand. Those are precedents to the promises of Amos 3:7 and Daniel 12:10.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

In fact we are in the BEGINNING of the FIRST century of the seventh and last millennium, the Millennium of Christ or Lord's Day, as you and all want. 

Isn't Jesus supposed to be ruling in this millennium along with a large number of saints from a city of pearly gates? 

What did I miss?

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, The Light said:

Matt 24

³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on now. This is confusing. Jesus just told us when we SEE ALL THESE THINGS, and now in Luke, He says when these things begin to come to pass. Well, that's two different situations.

Luke 21

²⁸ And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Okay, Okay, what's this then. How can I see all these thing come to pass in Matt 24, but in Luke He says that we can ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. That makes no sense whatsoever. I'm going to see these things and yet escape these things and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN?

Luke 21

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

I have to tell you, in all sincerity, this has been a very good conversation. I appreciate your insight and patience. The above is a new proposition for me and I'll examine it here:

Luke 21

"And when these things begin to come to pass," The Greek is 'touton archomai ginomai' and the translation seems to be pretty accurate. "Things commence a change in conditions" is more literal.

Matt 24

" when ye shall see all these things," The Greek is 'hotan eido pas tauta' and literally 'at the time conditions are seen in total'. 

So I see no difference here. It looks like the difference between 'car' and 'vehicle'. Same thing said a different way.

16 hours ago, The Light said:

So, maybe He is talking about two different people. Maybe He is talking about the Jews in Matt 24 that are told to look up when they see all these things. If you think about it, the 70th week is about the Jews. We know that 70 weeks are determined on thy people and upon the Holy City. This is the Jews, not Gentiles. So it's the Jews that go through the tribulation and it's the Gentiles that can escape all these things and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. So when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel has it's blindness removed. They are the ones raptured in Matt 24, not the Church.

I can see where this is a basis for argument. From what I see in scripture there are two people: believers and unbelievers. A believer is in Christ and therefore of the seed of Abraham and this includes everyone that believes, without prejudice; unbelievers need no explanation. This means that all who believe on Christ are spiritual Israel. We are the Jews as Paul explains in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews. Daniel's people then would be the seed of Abraham, spiritual Israel, and not liturgical Jewry nor the nation of Israel.

In Matt 24 Jesus is speaking to believers in Him in verses 5-14. It cannot be orthodox practicing Jewry as Jesus specifies the group in question will be deceived and persecuted in and for His name. Obviously that cannot be Jews as they do not hold to the divinity nor messianic nature of Jesus. The warning to those in Judea to flee and the prayer their escape not be impeded is because Israel, the nation, is the place where the beast begins his reign and the campaign of terror. 

Jesus warns 'them which are in Judea'. This isn't Jews, it's everyone. The region of Judea/Samaria is a melting pot of culture, race and religion. In Matt 24:16 Jesus speaks to the population with a prophetic eye on the end of the age and does not single out a race.

16 hours ago, The Light said:

Why does this come as a shock? If I told you I have a surprise for you and you said great, tell me when. I would say it's a surprise. Would you say that you don't believe that I was going to surprise you because I wouldn't tell you when? God makes it crystal clear that He is going to come in an hour that you think not. How could He possibly do that if He gave you scriptures that point to exactly when He is coming.

Matt 24

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

He tells you that He is going to come in an hour that you think not. How could He possibly do that if He showed you when He was coming. You seem to not believe what He is telling you. It seems you have to see to believe. But He tells you He is coming in such an hour that you think not, and yet you are requiring Him to tell you when He is coming or you won't believe?

What I'm saying is there isn't a direct statement, even generally, that suggests a pretrib gathering. For example, in Matt 24:29-31 we see the gathering and it's specified it comes after the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, which is after great tribulation, which is after the A of D, but before wrath. That's really specific timing in relation to events. We don't know dates or times of the beginning or ending of those events, we just know what order the events occur, and we will not know the date or time until the events occur. So even if we know the order we will still be 'surprised' by the moment of occurrence.

By the above rationale then why do we not see some statement about a gathering that occurs before any end of the age events? Maybe, "But do not be concerned, your redemption comes before all these things." By this we would know timing in relation to events and still be in the dark as to precisely 'When?'

17 hours ago, The Light said:

How is it that no one seems to understand that the 70th week of Daniel is about the Jews and not the Gentiles.

It is both, isn't it? The Gentiles are enslaved by the beast and the mark and the Seed of Abraham is refined. Remember, we are the Seed of Abraham, spiritual Israel, we have been grafted into the natural olive tree and are therefore the people of Daniel.

17 hours ago, The Light said:

, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

True. Here 'escape' is

"ekpheugó - (from Homer down); to flee out of, flee away;

a. to seek safety in flight; absolutely Acts 16:27; ἐκ τοῦ οἴκου, Acts 19:16.

b. to escape: 1 Thessalonians 5:3; Hebrews 2:3; τί, Luke 21:36; Romans 2:3; τινα, Hebrews 12:25 L T Tr WH; (τάς χεῖρας τίνος, 2 Corinthians 11:33. Cf. Winers Grammar, § 52, 4, 4; Buttmann, 146f (128f)).

and is not synonymous with 'harpazo', which is the 'rapture':

" harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly)."

Two very different concepts. I would say in Luke the 'worthy to escape' is a path of safety in the storm. Harpazo is clearly an abduction. And notice the idea here in "take by an open display of force " We see it's not secret; "(i.e. not covertly or secretly)."

 

 

 

 

[Justin Adams]

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I'm going to see these things and yet escape these things and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN?

Quite probably and LITERALLY yes! There is gong to be a war like no other ever before it. It is a battle of the heavenlies versus the earthlies. God has CHOSEN to do it using us mere humans because it really rubs His 'holy ones' faces in the muck.

Just wait and see how the Lord fights and leads us into a battle for ALL THE MARBLES... in heaven, so on the earth. Where heaven and earth meet once again.

[Diaste]

21 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Quite probably and LITERALLY yes! There is gong to be a war like no other ever before it. It is a battle of the heavenlies versus the earthlies. God has CHOSEN to do it using us mere humans because it really rubs His 'holy ones' faces in the muck.

Just wait and see how the Lord fights and leads us into a battle for ALL THE MARBLES... in heaven, so on the earth. Where heaven and earth meet once again.

I agree. The quote was probably from 'thelight'. I understand how we can 'see' these things and 'escape' these things. I'm counting on the power of the Lord to do both. Praise Him!

[Revelation Man]

On 4/22/2020 at 6:54 AM, Diaste said:

I get that you have great conviction in what you say. It's not proof. Have any proof beyond sermons?

 

I have the facts brother, you would also if you searched them out, but it seems your dogma is all-consuming in this situation. I will save it, and do a thread that blows anything but a pre trib rapture out of the water. When I set to do something, I accomplish it, just like my Daniel 11 and 12 blog. 

On 4/22/2020 at 6:54 AM, Diaste said:

Chapter and verse within the context of the end of the age and the coming of the Lord?

 

You stated you know in the answer just below, so what is there to answer here ? I will below.

On 4/22/2020 at 6:54 AM, Diaste said:

I know. But the context is the end of the age and the coming of the Lord. 

 

The context was unto the Disciples....Jesus was telling them in parables at that time how he would die and go to the Father and send them the Comforter and they wondered, what is he saying, Jesus, knowing their heart then spoke to them in a manner they could understand on the issues he was teaching them about and he also showed them their fate and coming tribulation. 

John 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God 31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So, Jesus is telling his Disciples they will scatter, and deny him, but he has the Father with him. Then he says the reason I told you these things is so you might have peace also [in the Father] via the coming Holy Spirit the Father will send. But in this world you will have....as in WILL ALWAYS HAVE...tribulation, but be happy guys, I have overcome the world. So its very evident we as a Church have continual tribulation, in Gods eyes/Jesus' eyes as long as we are on this earth. So ALL TIME is tribulation on this evil, wicked earth, we just have a 2000 some odd year Church Age tribulation {those seen in Rev. 7:9-16} and a 70th week tribulation period, THEN a 3.5 year period of TROUBLES that is greater than any tribulation ever seen before or after, and that time period includes both the Anti-Christs evil tyrannical rule, AND the Wrath of God that overlap via the exact same number of days, 1260 days to be exact. 

So, the context is not the end of the age brother, it was Jesus speaking unto the Disciples via a Prophecy of sorts, telling them the World would always be tribulation for them and the Church, but he has overcome this world. 

On 4/22/2020 at 6:54 AM, Diaste said:

Not possible. That would mean many believers in Jesus are in the wrath of God. Isn't 'we are not appointed to wrath' the rationale Pretrib uses to escape the 70th week? How is it then you cast believers in Jesus into the same wrath which you escape? 

Only to those who do not understand that the Rapture is pre trib BUT that that doesn't include the 5 virgins who tarried. Half of the Christians will not have their lives in proper order when Jesus calls us to come to be with him in Heaven, they will be Christians in name only, or backslidden or whatever one wants to call it, unpurged Sin can not enter Heaven. So many of those who see a Billion or so {1/2 of Christendom) Christians fall dead all at once, will understand the Rapture has just happened {no, people do not FLY THROUGH THE AIR} and thus they will in many cases Repent, and BECOME the Remnant Church seen in Rev. 17:12. Those in Rev. 17:12 can not be Jews {that is 100 percent provable}, so they are the Remnant Church, meaning of course the Church is in Heaven marrying the Lamb just like Rev. 19 says, that is why we see the Church in Rev. 4, 5 and 7 in Heaven also. THE REDEEMED {Rev. 5:9-10} are not Angels, of course. Thus the Remnant Church is ON EARTH. Those that tarried had the doors to the wedding closed unto them, they will indeed go through the Tribulation, but that is their fault, we KNOW THIS IS TRUE because we see it in the scriptures, they are called Martyrs under the Altar in the 5th Seal which like all the Seals cover the coming 42 months rule of the Beast. 

We can see in three places who they actually are. The people who insist the Seals are already opened go off-kilter here it seems.

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

{{{ This has nothing to do with the Church Age Saints per se, its all about the Tribulation, Remnant Church Saints, who came to Christ AFTER the rapture, thus they are called the Remnant. NOTICE: They want to be avenged via those people still ALIVE ON EARTH at that time !! They are given White Robes and told to wait until all their brothers were killed in like manner as they were. }}}

Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

{{{ The Dragon, via the Anti-Christ, chases the woman (Israel) into the Wilderness but can't get at her so he turns and goes after the Remnant of HER (Israels) SEED (Which is Jesus), who have the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ. OK, we know the Remnant can not be the Jews whom the Dragon can't get at, because he gets angry and leaves off trying to get at them, and we know it can't be the 2/3 of the Jews who DON'T FLEE because they don't have the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ do they ? So this Remnant is indeed the Remnant Church on earth, a remnant because the Church is indeed in Heaven at this point in time. These are the Martyrs of the 5th Seal, we can clearly see them in Rev. 20:4 also, and they are specified in detail there also.}}}

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

{{{Most people MISS THIS point entirely. The Church is given JUDGEMENT POWERS here as we return with Jesus Christ in Rev. 19, and we are to Judge and REWARD those who were ON EARTH while we the Church were IN HEAVEN, Marrying the Lamb of God. Thus the AND above delineates between the two, the Church who sit in Judgment AND those who are clearly said to have died REFUSING THE MARK OF THE BEAST !! A Specified peoples who refused to Worship his Image !! Who then are chosen to Live and Reign ON EARTH with Jesus during his 1000 year reign. So those under the Altar at the 5th Seal are SEEN HERE in Rev. 20:4, and then Judged and given their rewards at this time, whilst those at the Rev. 19 Marriage were rewarded in Heaven !! Its OBVIOUS. So, do you now SEE that there are indeed those who go through the 70th week tribulation who are Christian Saints ? Because its indeed there in Scriptures.}}}

On 4/22/2020 at 6:54 AM, Diaste said:

No, it did not morph into anything and I am not saying it means any particular thing. Both Strong's and the etymology of 'apostasia' tell us the origin and the definition. 

"late 14c., "renunciation, abandonment or neglect of established religion," from Late Latin apostasia, from later Greek apostasia for earlier apostasis "revolt, defection," literally "a standing off," from apostanai "to stand away" (see apostate (n.)). General (non-religious) sense "abandonment of what one has professed" is attested from 1570s."

"mid-14c., "one who forsakes his religion or faith," from Old French apostat and directly from Late Latin apostata (which form also was used in English), from Greek apostasia, apostasis "defection, desertion, rebellion," from apostanai "to defect," literally "to stand off," from apo "off, away from" (see apo-) + stanai, aorist of histanai "to set, place," literally "cause to stand," from PIE root *sta- "to stand, make or be firm."

Used from mid-14c. in non-religious situations, "one who has forsaken the party, opinion, etc., to which he previously adhered.""

None of the above has any relation to 'harpazo' and 'apostasia' has always meant defection.

The First Seven English versions had DEPARTURE, there is only one debate, what is DEPARTING, men from the Faith that is never mentioned in the whole passage, or The Church Departing to be with Christ, in which case the First verse points unto that. 

All your maneuvering around and trying to wordsmith these things do not make a great impression on me brother, I follow the Spirits guidance, Its called my knower, I know, that I know, that I know when I see it. I understand that nothing about THE FAITH is being pointed to at all in the passage, so you can't convince me Paul is speaking about a DEPARTING from the Faith when it is obvious he is speaking about being Gathered unto Christ as per the DEPARTING. I could care less that the KJV translators tried to change the meaning to Rebellion to smear the RCC as not being of the Faith. 

On 4/22/2020 at 6:54 AM, Diaste said:

Avoidance tactic per your usual behavior. Out of context to deflect from a poor position. A nice term for this is intellectual dishonesty. 

 

Being FACTUAL has its REWARDS, we come to the truth of God that way. So, like I stated, there is a JUXTAPOSITION to the Beast being made there, it takes your Hitler analogy out of the equation, so your fall back was this above....pretty weak brother. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Correct, the "GATHERING TO Christ Jesus is SEEN in the very first verse." And the context is that that gathering to Jesus, "the Day of Christ (2:2)," shall not come until the apostasia takes place. If you translate apostasia to mean the departing in the Rapture, then you are saying that "the departing to Jesus shall not come until the Gathering to Jesus comes." Which would be a pretty nonsensical statement for Paul to make.

You are in error again on this subject. The Day of the Lord can not come upon the Thessalonians UNTIL the Departure/Gathering/Rapture happens. Paul then basically says, EVEN the Anti-Christ comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord which is a 3.5 year period of God's Wrath.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

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I have to tell you, in all sincerity, this has been a very good conversation. I appreciate your insight and patience.

Thank you. It goes both ways.

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The above is a new proposition for me and I'll examine it here:

Luke 21

"And when these things begin to come to pass," The Greek is 'touton archomai ginomai' and the translation seems to be pretty accurate. "Things commence a change in conditions" is more literal.

Matt 24

" when ye shall see all these things," The Greek is 'hotan eido pas tauta' and literally 'at the time conditions are seen in total'. 

So I see no difference here. It looks like the difference between 'car' and 'vehicle'. Same thing said a different way.

I can't agree, and I am not grasping how you don't see the difference.

According to what you posted Matt 24, and I quote "at the time conditions are seen in total"

When we look at what you posted in Luke, we see, "Things commence a change in conditions"

So when we are looking at Matthew we see things in TOTAL.

When we look at Luke, we see things that COMMENCE a change in conditions

When we look at the definition of commence it is to BEGIN or START. So conditions in Luke begin to change or start to change whereas in Matthew we see the total change. So I cannot agree with your conclusion.

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I can see where this is a basis for argument. From what I see in scripture there are two people: believers and unbelievers

Sure, in the end there are sheep and goats. But during the journey, to the end, we see that the Jews were supposed to be the first harvest, but they served other Gods. The Gentiles would then be the 1st harvest (the elder son). The fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the early summer grain harvest. When the Jews see this, part of them will become jealous and their eyes will be opened.  (not those in the nation of Israel)

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

So along the journey there is a clear division between Jews and Gentiles, hence the 70th week of Daniel.

 

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. A believer is in Christ and therefore of the seed of Abraham and this includes everyone that believes, without prejudice; unbelievers need no explanation. This means that all who believe on Christ are spiritual Israel. We are the Jews as Paul explains in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews. Daniel's people then would be the seed of Abraham, spiritual Israel, and not liturgical Jewry nor the nation of Israel.

Yes, but don't let this keep you from the FACTS. The facts are God has separated His dealings with the Jews and the Gentiles.

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In Matt 24 Jesus is speaking to believers in Him in verses 5-14

Jesus is not directly speaking to believers. He is talking about what will happen in end times. Just like John in Revelation is telling us what will happen in end times.
 

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. It cannot be orthodox practicing Jewry as Jesus specifies the group in question will be deceived and persecuted in and for His name. Obviously that cannot be Jews as they do not hold to the divinity nor messianic nature of Jesus. The warning to those in Judea to flee and the prayer their escape not be impeded is because Israel, the nation, is the place where the beast begins his reign and the campaign of terror. 

 

Those being talked about, those that are told to flee ARE NOT BELIEVERS at the time of this fleeing. If they were when Jesus comes in Matt 24 they would be raptured to heaven. Instead they flee to a place of protection. At some point after this they will have their eyes opened and realize that Jesus is the Messiah. The dragon will attempt to get to them, but He won't be able to. What will he do?

Rev 12

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The dragon will be angry and go after the remnant of her seed. That is the 12 tribes that are across the earth. These already have had their blindness removed and know that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. This happens during the great tribulation. Those of the 12 tribes that are across the earth and are alive at the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 will be caught up. Only the nation of Israel and unbelievers go through the wrath of God and the woman will be in a place of protection.

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Jesus warns 'them which are in Judea'. This isn't Jews, it's everyone. The region of Judea/Samaria is a melting pot of culture, race and religion. In Matt 24:16 Jesus speaks to the population with a prophetic eye on the end of the age and does not single out a race.

You are referring to what is modern day Judea. Judea at the time of the apostles was the area of the tribe of Judah.

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What I'm saying is there isn't a direct statement, even generally, that suggests a pretrib gathering. For example, in Matt 24:29-31 we see the gathering and it's specified it comes after the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, which is after great tribulation, which is after the A of D, but before wrath. That's really specific timing in relation to events. We don't know dates or times of the beginning or ending of those events, we just know what order the events occur, and we will not know the date or time until the events occur. So even if we know the order we will still be 'surprised' by the moment of occurrence.

What you are saying is not correct. If you are looking for an order of events to prove a pretrib rapture, He gave it to you. When you see these things BEGIN to come to pass. We are told to watch and BE READY.

What does He tell to the twelve tribes? When you see ALL THESE THINGS

Matt 24

³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

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By the above rationale then why do we not see some statement about a gathering that occurs before any end of the age events? Maybe, "But do not be concerned, your redemption comes before all these things." By this we would know timing in relation to events and still be in the dark as to precisely 'When?'

If I understand you correctly, it is exactly what He gives you in Luke.

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It is both, isn't it? The Gentiles are enslaved by the beast and the mark and the Seed of Abraham is refined. Remember, we are the Seed of Abraham, spiritual Israel, we have been grafted into the natural olive tree and are therefore the people of Daniel.

I'm not sure I am following you, but I think you are saying that during the time of the Beast, the Gentiles are refined as they are part of spiritual Israel.

I see things like this. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in with the pretrib rapture, the ark doors are closed 7 days before the flood. I think if you are a Gentile and have heard the word of God and did not get your oil, that's the end of the story. They will be given strong delusion and believe the lie. If you have never heard the work previously and hear it AFTER the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, and accepts it and believes, I believe those get a chance as when we look at the harvest we know there is a gleaning of the field. The only way I see any chance for the foolish virgins would be if they were killed for their faith, but I'm not sure that is an option.

 

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True. Here 'escape' is

"ekpheugó - (from Homer down); to flee out of, flee away;

a. to seek safety in flight; absolutely Acts 16:27; ἐκ τοῦ οἴκου, Acts 19:16.

b. to escape: 1 Thessalonians 5:3; Hebrews 2:3; τί, Luke 21:36; Romans 2:3; τινα, Hebrews 12:25 L T Tr WH; (τάς χεῖρας τίνος, 2 Corinthians 11:33. Cf. Winers Grammar, § 52, 4, 4; Buttmann, 146f (128f)).

and is not synonymous with 'harpazo', which is the 'rapture':

" harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly)."

Two very different concepts. I would say in Luke the 'worthy to escape' is a path of safety in the storm. Harpazo is clearly an abduction. And notice the idea here in "take by an open display of force " We see it's not secret; "(i.e. not covertly or secretly)."

Two different times. He tells the disiples that they will desire to see ONE of the days of the Son of Man.

What is the day of the Son of Man.  For as the lightning....................................................................................

Luke 17

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

²⁴ For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

4 hours ago, Diaste said: