Those who were caught up to the cloud to be with the Lord FOREVER will not be overcome by antichrist, unless you are left behind

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, douggg said:

That was not the point I was making though.   The point was that Jesus did continue as a living soul.     Jesus also made the point of living souls (after their bodies has returned to dust), when he said (paraphrased) is God not the God of the living, when God says I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The issue is not when a person becomes a living soul, as in the case of Adam, or us as we are born into this world - but whether a person continues as their self, including self awareness, after death of the body.     And the destination.

Shabbat shalom, douggg.

You're right! That IS the issue! However, you, like billions of others down through the millennia, have been DUPED by "christoplatonism" (as Randy Alcorn puts it in his book Heaven), adopted in the 200s A.D!

Thanks to men like Plato, Origen, and thousands of others since then, we have adopted the belief that there is a "Heaven" and "souls" go there after they die! They taught that there is a CONTINUITY to life that is NOT found in the Bible!

Yeshua` taught that a man DIES and "SLEEPS" until he is RESURRECTED! Some will be resurrected to LIFE, as Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov; others will be resurrected to CONDEMNATION, but ALL shall be resurrected!

Consider Yeshua`s words:

John 11:1-15 (KJV)

1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus (Elezar), of Bethany, the town of Mary (Miryam) and her sister Martha (Marta). 2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) 3Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying,

"Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick." 

4 When Jesus heard that, he said,

"This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby."

5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. 6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was. 7 Then after that saith he to his disciples,

"Let us go into Judaea again."

8 His disciples say unto him,

"Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?"

9 Jesus answered,

"Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him."

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them,

"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

12 Then said his disciples,

"Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well."

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly,

"Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him."

Later, consider the conversation between Himself and Marta:

John 11:20-27 (KJV)

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus,

"Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee."

23 Jesus saith unto her,

"Thy brother shall rise again."

24 Martha saith unto him,

"I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."  

25 Jesus said unto her,

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

27 She saith unto him,

"Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of God, which should come into the world."

Then again, look at what happened at the tomb:

John 11:38-44 (KJV)

38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said,

"Take ye away the stone."

Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him,

"Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days."

40 Jesus saith unto her,

"Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said,

"Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,

"LAZARUS, COME FORTH!" 

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them,

"Loose him, and let him go."

Where was Elezar before he was raised from the dead? HE WAS RIGHT THERE IN THE TOMB! Yeshua` didn't call his "soul" back from somewhere else! He called to HIM RIGHT THERE IN THE TOMB!

Now, consider Kefa's (Peter's) words in Acts 2:

Acts 2:22-36 (KJV)

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words;

"Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 "For David speaketh concerning him,

"'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.'

29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ (the Messiah) to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 

32 "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted (having ascended to His Father), and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens (even after Yeshua`s Resurrection): but he saith himself,

"'The LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) said unto my Lord (Hebrew: Adoniy = "my sir/sire"), "Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."' 

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord (Master) and Christ (Messiah to be King)!"

You're still spewing theology, voicing men's opinions of God's Word. It's time to get back to the Scriptures!

[douggg]

2 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Extend the blue on over to the second coming and you will have it nailed down, as none of us know when the rapture will happen. That my friend is the truth.

I agree that none of us know when the rapture will happen.   Which is why I went with the label of anytime rapture view.

In 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture, which it is said in the text to encourage one another with, for knowing that Christians are not appointed to the wrath that will take place in the beginning years of the Day of Lord.

So, therefore, the rapture must happen before the triggering of the beginning of the Day of Lord.   Which in 2Thessalonians2:4, the beginning of the Day of the Lord, as like a thief in the night, is by the transgression of desolation act.   What we don't know how far in front of that act the rapture will occur.     The imminent factor is it could occur "anytime".   Like this very minute even.

So I cannot extend the blue zone all the way to the second coming, which the thought of going through the great tribulation is something no-one should be encouraged by.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` taught that a man DIES and "SLEEPS" until he is RESURRECTED! Some will be resurrected to LIFE, as Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov; others will be resurrected to CONDEMNATION, but ALL shall be resurrected!

The body is what "sleeps".

In 1Thessalonians4:15 Jesus comes with the living souls of Christian who have died (their bodies) in the past, with Him, when he comes to rapture the living out of the world.      The bodies that are asleep, disintegrated,  of those living souls, Jesus will redeem to everlasting incorruptible glorious bodies and reunite with those souls.

So Christians of the present and Christians of the past have the promised gloried incorruptible eternal bodies.    The same three components of the complete living soul.   But without any of the flaws, and even better for eternal life,  redeemed souls and bodies, from the what sin has done to man.    Resulting from the plan of Satan to destroy us.

 

And together with rapture of the living, whose bodies are transformed likewise, all with go with Jesus to heaven, and remain there until Jesus returns to this earth in the Second Coming event.    Which at that time Satan will be made a terror no more, and his kingdom of Babylon the great destroyed.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by douggg

[ENOCH2010]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

I agree that none of us know when the rapture will happen.   Which is why I went with the label of anytime rapture view.

In 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture, which it is said in the text to encourage one another with, for knowing that Christians are not appointed to the wrath that will take place in the beginning years of the Day of Lord.

So, therefore, the rapture must happen before the triggering of the beginning of the Day of Lord.   Which in 2Thessalonians2:4, the beginning of the Day of the Lord, as like a thief in the night, is by the transgression of desolation act.   What we don't know how far in front of that act the rapture will occur.     The imminent factor is it could occur "anytime".   Like this very minute even.

So I cannot extend the blue zone all the way to the second coming, which the thought of going through the great tribulation is something no-one should be encouraged by.

 

 

Oh ye of little faith..... God can and will protect his children. 

[Revelation Man]

On 5/1/2020 at 10:12 PM, R. Hartono said:

True, Real children of Jesus will b saved whether they believe pre trib rapture or not unless they declare it as deception.

That is true, BUT.......there are always consequences, Satan calculates that to win as many souls to hell as he can.

If we believe one way or the other it might not take us to hell, but will it cause others to wind up in hell is the real question. For instance, Satan is crafty, he will use ANYTHING to get people in his hell. Thus if they are told, hey, you all have to go through the Tribulation no matter what, many, especially the younger crowd, will say, WELL..........I will come to the Lord later, especially if I have to go through the Tribulation anyway, so they in essence will miss the Rapture and be forced into a REAL TIME life or death situation, some might have kids, so they will be coerced, and if they take the Mark of the Beast they will be doomed to hell. All because THEY THOUGHT they had to go through the Tribulation anyway, when in reality they don't. So some will indeed be weak and take the Mark of the Beast, when if they knew they could miss the Tribulation they may very well have come to the Lord sooner.

And if that's just ONE PERSON, its too many, and I think it will be much, much more than that.

It is what it is, but all choices have consequences. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

16 hours ago, douggg said:

Classic flawed pre-trib logic.   The anytime rapture view fixes the few flaws in the pre-trib view.   But it doesn't contradict that the rapture could possibly take place pre-70th week.    

The man of sin is revealed - means that the person is not the messiah who the Jews and the world will be thinking he is at the time.     It does not mean the person's identity will be unknown pending the transgression of desolation act.      The person will be most well known person in the world at that time as being the perceived messiah.

 

Your Messiah views I stopped pondering on long ago brother.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Your Messiah views I stopped pondering on long ago brother.

In your bible, what did the sign read, that Pilate had placed above Jesus's head on the cross?

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, douggg said:

The body is what "sleeps".

Shabbat shalom, douggg.

OR, so goes the theological theory! Actually, we don't "HAVE bodies"; we ARE bodies! WE "sleep!" What's really cool, though, is that the "sleeper" will be TOTALLY UNAWARE of the passage of time! A person "falls to sleep" in death and the next thing he knows, he will be waking up in the Resurrection!

Quote

In 1 Thessalonians 4:15, Jesus comes with the living souls of Christian who have died (their bodies) in the past, with Him, when he comes to rapture the living out of the world.      The bodies that are asleep, disintegrated,  of those living souls, Jesus will redeem to everlasting incorruptible glorious bodies and reunite with those souls.

There are two ways to read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, but you've probably never considered one way. I will add words to give the sense in both cases:

First, the traditional way (your way):

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (those who have died), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (from Heaven). 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (and with the souls from Heaven): and the dead in Christ (the souls) shall rise (get their bodies back) first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Second, the alternative:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (those who have died), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (wherever they are found buried) will God bring with him (alive when the Messiah returns to Israel). 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (the ones asleep, awaiting the resurrection) shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You've got them coming down vertically "with Him"; I believe it makes more sense that He comes down vertically alone and then they come "with Him" horizontally. This way also completes the analogy: Yeshua` was asleep and rose again; so, those who are asleep in Yeshua will also rise again to come with Him!

As is typical with Jewish literature, the writer will often give the overview first (verse 14); then, he will go into the details (verses 15 through 17), and contrary to public opinion, Paul was a "Pharisee of the Pharisees," by his own admission, after all! (See Acts 23:6; 26:5; and Philippians 3:5.)

Quote

So Christians of the present and Christians of the past have the promised gloried incorruptible eternal bodies.    The same three components of the complete living soul.   But without any of the flaws, and even better for eternal life,  redeemed souls and bodies, from the what sin has done to man.    Resulting from the plan of Satan to destroy us.

First of all, it's not just "Christians" who "have the promised, glorified, incorruptible, eternal bodies." This promise was to the Jews FIRST, and it bothers me GREATLY that you don't know this! Why do you think it was such a big deal for the Pharisees to admit that there was a future RESURRECTION?!

What did Iyov ("Job") say?

Job 19:23-27 (KJV)

23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

What did Y'chezk'el ("Ezekiel") say?

Ezekiel 37:1-14 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit (on the wind) of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

And I answered,

"O Lord GOD, thou knowest."

4 Again he said unto me,

"Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,

"'O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;

"'"Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me,

"Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."'"

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say,

"'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.'

12 "Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it," saith the LORD.'"

This one may be harder to see, but it's there just the same. What did Z'kharyahuw ("Zechariah") say?

Zechariah 12:1- (KJV)

1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel,"

saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 

4 "In that day," saith the LORD, "I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart,

"'The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.'

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."

7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 

9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,"

and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,
and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;

the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;
the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

I used to wonder, "Why are THESE houses mentioned? To whom does this refer?" Then, I studied this passage in the Complete Jewish Bible, a translation by David H. Stern (Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc., Clarksville, MD, c. 1998 by David H Stern).

Picking up in verse 9,

Z'kharyah (Zechariah) 12:9-14 (CJB)

9 "When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced."

They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like hat for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself --
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim`i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.

Then, I found this:

Luke 3:23-31 (CJB)

23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim`i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z'rubavel, of Sh'altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli`ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim`on, of Y'hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal`ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David, ...

These are EXACTLY the SAME NAMES and in the SAME ORDER (reversed, of course, in Luke)!

Now, this makes sense to me! Zechariah's prophecy is listing members in Yeshua`s genealogy! No wonder they were mourning the Messiah's piercing! Notice, too, that they were mourning Him as "an only son" if they had only one son in their family, and mourning Him as "a firstborn son" if they had multiple sons in their family! Why? Because they were all His GREAT-GREAT-...-GRANDPARENTS, and He was their HEIR! That can ONLY be true when they are all alive again at one time! This is talking about the Resurrection!

And, what did Yesha`yahuw ("Isaiah") say?

Isaiah 26:19 (KJV)

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

What did Daniel say? (Or rather, what was said to Daniel?)

Daniel 12:1-3 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

I'll save the rest for another time.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Retrobyter
to fix a misspelling

[Revelation Man]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

In your bible, what did the sign read, that Pilate had placed above Jesus's head on the cross?

Again, you confuse and CONFLATE......It doesn't matter what it said because we all know Jesus is going to the be the King of Kings, what matters is YOU THINK they accept the Anti-Christ {a Gentile NOT a Jew} as their King and I know better. 1/3 Flee Judea, the 2/3 who don't will perish, but they never accept him as their King, that comes from you brother, not scriptures. You take a Prophecy about the Pharisees from 2000 years ago {John 5:43} and extrapolate it 2000 years into the future. It came to pass via the Pharisees 2000 years ago (70 AD), Jesus was speaking to the PHARISEES of his time.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Revelation Man

[douggg]

37 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, you confuse and CONFLATE......It doesn't matter what it said because we all know Jesus is going to the be the King of Kings, what matters is YOU THINK they accept the Anti-Christ {a Gentile NOT a Jew} as their King and I know better.

What is the part in blue referring to?   What land and what people?

 

Isaiah 14

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.