Those who were caught up to the cloud to be with the Lord FOREVER will not be overcome by antichrist, unless you are left behind

[BeauJangles]

20 minutes ago, douggg said:

We are babe's on the doorstep to eternity.    I am 71.    

Now that's a quality statement if I ever heard one! 

[R. Hartono]

3 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

"Pre-Tribbers" believe in the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church. Debunking the thought of Christians dying in the Great Tribulation. The ideology does not adhere to that concept of that at all. Is there some confusion concerning this issue?

The wise virgins are taken n the foolish r left n yelled, rapture is that simple.

[BeauJangles]

12 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The wise virgins are taken n the foolish r left n yelled, rapture is that simple.

Yeah, that's true. Foolish virgins forgot something else besides getting a refill on their oil. They forgot to get saved. Well, that was pretty foolish and most of the world are filled with them. Unfortunately. 

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

The point is that the thief continued to be consciously aware of his existence after he died.   It is not a issue of defining what paradise is.

Shalom, douggg.

Did he indeed? Was he indeed "consciously aware of his existence after he died?" THAT'S PART OF THE ASSUMPTION, after all! See, I believe that Yeshua` was telling him what to expect in death, based in part on his request: 

Luke 23:39-43 (KJV)

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying,

"If thou be Christ (the Messiah), save thyself ... and us!"

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying,

"Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss!" 

42 And he said unto Jesus,

"Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

43 And Jesus said unto him,

"Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

And, as I went to great length to explain, the Greek translates directly to ...

43 And he-said to-him, 

"Truth to-you I-say, this-day with me you-will-be in the park."

***

Now, Yeshua` already gave us information about His Kingdom:

Luke 19:9-27 (KJV)

9 And Jesus said unto him (Zacchaeus),

"This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

'Occupy till I come.'

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying,

'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 And he said unto him,

'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'

18 And the second came, saying,

'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 And he said likewise to him,

'Be thou also over five cities.'

20 And another came, saying,

'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 And he saith unto him,

'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?'

24 And he said unto them that stood by,

'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.'

25 (And they said unto him,

'Lord, he hath ten pounds!') 

26 'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!'"

And, this parable is directly connected to Matthew's account:

Matthew 25:14-46 (KJV)

14 "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying,

'Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.'

21 His lord said unto him,

'Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.'

22 He also that had received two talents came and said,

'Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.'

23 His lord said unto him,

'Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.'

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said,

'Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.'

26 His lord answered and said unto him, 

'Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury!' 

28'Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.'

29 'For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

***

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand , but the goats on the left .

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand ,

'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.' 

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,

'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?'

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,

'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand ,

'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.'

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying,

'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?'

45 Then shall he answer them, saying,

'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.'"

Yeshua` doesn't go anywhere to reign; He RETURNS TO EARTH to begin His reign! It will be THEN that He is called "the King!" This sheep/goat division happens at the BEGINNING of His reign and is NOT a division made between individuals but between NATIONS! Thus, this won't happen until He has won the Battle ending at Har-Megiddown ("Armageddon") or Tel Megiddo outside Haifa, Israel, and has become the Victor among those nations. Therefore, this describes a WAR TRIBUNAL in which God's Messiah - God's Choice for Israel's King - determines who will be within His Kingdom as vassal states and who will be rejected as nations! This determination is made by how they treated "His brothers (and sisters)," and while "His brethren" MAY include the Gentile believers as well, He was primarily referring to His OWN people, the children of Israel.

So, back to this "malefactor's" request, "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom," he was referring to the Resurrection that will happen at the BEGINNING of Yeshua`s Reign! That Resurrection, which I believe is described LITERALLY in Ezekiel 37, ...

Ezekiel 37:12-14 (KJV)

 12 "Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD (Hebrew: Adonay YHWH);

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD (Hebrew: aniy YHWH), when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD (Hebrew: aniy YHWH) have spoken it, and performed it," saith the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH).'"

... will actually begin BEFORE the Battle ending at Har-Megiddown is finished! And, I say this based on the authority of Z'kharyahuw's (Zechariah's) prophecy in Zechariah 12:

Zechariah 12:2-14 (KJV)

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (all who try to lift it will have a hernia), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;
the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;
the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

This can only happen AFTER the Resurrection! Here's how I know this: We see these names in this order (although reversed) only one other place in Scripture:

Luke 3:23-31ff (KJV)

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age,
being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Heli, 
24 Which was the son of Matthat,
which was the son of Levi,
which was the son of Melchi,
which was the son of Janna,
which was the son of Joseph, 
25 Which was the son of Mattathias,
which was the son of Amos,
which was the son of Naum,
which was the son of Esli,
which was the son of Nagge, 
26 Which was the son of Maath,
which was the son of Mattathias,
which was the son of Semei,
which was the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Juda, 
27 Which was the son of Joanna,
which was the son of Rhesa,
which was the son of Zorobabel,
which was the son of Salathiel,
which was the son of Neri, 
28 Which was the son of Melchi,
which was the son of Addi,
which was the son of Cosam,
which was the son of Elmodam,
which was the son of Er, 
29 Which was the son of Jose,
which was the son of Eliezer,
which was the son of Jorim,
which was the son of Matthat,
which was the son of Levi, 
30 Which was the son of Simeon,
which was the son of Juda,
which was the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Jonan,
which was the son of Eliakim, 
31 Which was the son of Melea,
which was the son of Menan,
which was the son of Mattatha,
which was the son of Nathan,
which was the son of David, ...

These are names in the lineage of Yeshua`! If the family of that generation had only one son and heir, "they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his ONLY SON;" if the family had more than one son, they "shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his FIRSTBORN!" Yeshua` IS their great ... grandson! And, all of this would ONLY be possible if they were all brought back to life at the same time - hence, the RESURRECTION!

And, John notes:

John 19:31-37 (KJV)

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, "A bone of him shall not be broken." 37 And again another scripture saith, "They shall look on him whom they pierced."

So, they took down this thief - this malefactor (evil-doer) - and buried him at the same time as Yeshua` was also buried. Furthermore, we read this about Yeshua`:

Isaiah 53:9 (KJV)

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Thus, they were also buried in the same place! The same "garden" tombs! They were buried in the same park!

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Did he indeed? Was he indeed "consciously aware of his existence after he died?" THAT'S PART OF THE ASSUMPTION, after all!

No, it is not an assumption.   There was no need for Jesus to tell the repentant thief, otherwise.   There is nothing ambiguous about it.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

No, it is not an assumption.   There was no need for Jesus to tell the repentant thief, otherwise.   There is nothing ambiguous about it.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

Shabbat shalom, douggg.

You're not understanding. The common THEOLOGICAL use of the word "paradise" FORCES the assumption! That this "paradise" can be "a place to which one goes (without one's body) immediately after death" LENDS ITSELF to the assumption that "one is conscious of their surroundings after death!" Yeshua` TOLD the repentant thief what He told him, and THEOLOGICAL INTERPRETATION forces the image of something otherwise!

But, the word "paradise" means a "park," specifically a "park of trees" such as an "orchard" or "Gan `Eden" (the "Garden of Eden") or the "Garden of Gethsemane." It's the THEOLOGICAL ASSUMPTION that this "park of trees" could be "in the center of the earth to which one may go immediately after death" (at least before the Resurrection of Yeshua`) that is a method for DRIVING the idea that "a person's consciousness continues after death." It gives an "OT someone" somewhere to go! Never mind the fact that this comes STRAIGHT OUT OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY with the concepts of "Hades" and the "Elysian FIelds!"

 

[douggg]

33 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, douggg.

You're not understanding. The common THEOLOGICAL use of the word "paradise" FORCES the assumption! That this "paradise" can be "a place to which one goes (without one's body) immediately after death" LENDS ITSELF to the assumption that "one is conscious of their surroundings after death!" Yeshua` TOLD the repentant thief what He told him, and THEOLOGICAL INTERPRETATION forces the image of something otherwise!

But, the word "paradise" means a "park," specifically a "park of trees" such as an "orchard" or "Gan `Eden" (the "Garden of Eden") or the "Garden of Gethsemane." It's the THEOLOGICAL ASSUMPTION that this "park of trees" could be "in the center of the earth to which one may go immediately after death" (at least before the Resurrection of Yeshua`) that is a method for DRIVING the idea that "a person's consciousness continues after death." It gives an "OT someone" somewhere to go! Never mind the fact that this comes STRAIGHT OUT OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY with the concepts of "Hades" and the "Elysian FIelds!"

 

The issue is not defining where paradise is.   And it is an obtuse argument that Jesus told the repented thief, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in the park.

The issue is that the person would consciously aware of his presence in a place of bliss and comfort after he died.      

 

 

[Retrobyter]

17 minutes ago, douggg said:

The issue is not defining where paradise is.   And it is an obtuse argument that Jesus told the repented thief, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in the park.

The issue is that the person would consciously aware of his presence in a place of bliss and comfort after he died.      

Shalom, douggg.

And, let's just chase this bunny down the rabbit hole: And, to what verses do you look for THAT explanation of being "consciously aware of his presence in a place of bliss and comfort after he died"?

See, it's only "obtuse" if you can't follow His reasoning. 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, douggg.

And, let's just chase this bunny down the rabbit hole: And, to what verses do you look for THAT explanation of being "consciously aware of his presence in a place of bliss and comfort after he died"?

See, it's only "obtuse" if you can't follow His reasoning. 

I'm done.   The verse is self-explanatory.   

[Retrobyter]

On 5/14/2020 at 8:11 PM, Marilyn C said:

I agree the Body of Christ is made up of both Jews and Gentiles. However when Jesus was on earth He was speaking to the people of Israel and any Gentiles that came in to Israel would be part of Israel. There was only Israel and the Gentiles.

Now there as 3 groups - the Body of Christ, Israel & the Gentiles (nations).

Shalom, Marilyn C.

Actually, there's more groups than three.