PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

[halifaxchristian]

I believe that we CAN know. I believe that the pre-trib is an IMPORTANT doctrine for a variety of reasons. Number one, because Jesus said so. Number two, we should be on-guard and girded with the truth at all times, awaiting the Groom. The post-trib does not allow for an immenant return of Jesus, as He Himself foretold. I also believe that I have to get to bed now. God bless you all.

Michael.

[apothanein kerdos]

Well we can't say Jesus said it, because there is nothing that Jesus says that either confirms or denies a pre or post tribulation stance.

Likewise, a post tirbulation stance does allow for an imminent return of Christ, but that it will occur at the end of tribulation.

The fact is, we just don't know. Jewish scholars and religious men who studied the scriptures on a daily basis didn't even realize the Messiah when He had come. THese men, for all their flaws, would put us to shame in our knowledge of the Bible. Yet they didn't even recognize Messiah or could accurately predict when or how He would come. What makes us think we will fair any better in trying to predict the second comming of Messiah?

[Guest juda]

Hi people great posts going on here may I ? Isn't the restraint that's on the world now, we christains and the holy spirit( 2 Thessal. 2:6) And when the rapture occurs ( 1Thessal. 4:17) ( we remain with him forever) that restraint stops as well, and the Lords wrath is upon the world (John 16:8) beginning with those missing with that rapture and tribulation begins in the world. The great restraint is the holy spirit and us if we are not taken up the restraint is still in the world so the rapture has to happen before the tribulation, comments please. In ( 1Thessal 5:5) Paul says we don't belong to the darkness or light he meant this world because Jesus is taking us out of it to be in heaven this is our faith. Blessings, juda

Edited August 2, 2005 by juda

[Guest eponine]

Amen to your last post, Super Jew.

I agree that it is very possible that God does not want us to absolutely know (though I do believe the evidence points to a post-trib rapture). But, think about this: If the pre-tribbers are right, we'll all be raptured and glorified so fast that no one will remember or care about this debate. But, if we post-tribbers have it figured out, we'll be able to say "I told you so!" In humility and Christian love of course.

After the abomination of desolation is revealed and I flee to the mountains, I will listen to my radio. First, to hear what is going on in the world. Second, to hear how all the radio preachers who used to be pre-trib are explaining the world events.

This was meant to be funny, not arrogant.

[justme7]

that was awesome.

and great reasoning and teaching

without getting into pre trib and all the theories, it seems like the Word alone does clearly indicate intense hardship for believers during the last days.

i have always been astounded by Matthew 10:37-38: He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take up his cross and folloe after Me in is not worthy of me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

that has always sounded so serious to me, so relevant. take up your cross....the cross is an instrument of death........this is such a great call, it is the Truth. We have been warned, Jesus Himself said the Son of Man had no place to rest His head; that a prophet is not without honor except in his own country. We read over and over that this walk will be full of hardship; that the world will hate us; that there will be trials and our faith tested. it is a serious thing to pick up the cross, an instrument of death, and follow after the Living God.

to take this lightly or to in some way believe that because we are called, we are spared hardship and challenge is very dangerous. if you think of it, this pre-trib theology is often times accompanied with the whole health $wealth theology as well. to think that we are to lead safe; unchallenged, unharmed, uninjured, physically well, financially well, etc..... breeds in us a luke warm, complacent faith; one that's main appeal is all about us (safety health weall FOR US). a less theologized Christianity might give way to diligence, pursuit of righteousness, faithfulness, integrity, and vigorous working to glorify His name. It might cause us who know that our salvation is by faith, to show our faiths by worshipping our God in our actions. It might even cause to sell all we've got for this 'one pearl of great price'

God's will be done in this body that we might be ready and appear worthy before Him.

[halifaxchristian]

One thing I know...I am getting on the first ride out of here (that's a pre-trib reference...on the lighter side!).

Michael.

[Trust & Obey]

I am on the fence.  I am honestly not sure about a pre-trib or not (though I tend to lean towards the pre-trib theory).  Sue, can you answer this one for me.  Why will no one know the day or hour if we know that exactly 7 years after the antichrist signs a peace treaty with Israel that Jesus returns???  The pretribulation theory accounts for this.  The post-tribulation theory does not make Jesus' return a secret at all.  According to what you hold to, I should be able to figure out the day and hour quite easily.  Would like to get your opinion.  God bless.

Michael.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Michael,

The second coming of Christ is not supposed to be a secret. The Bible says that EVERY eye shall see him and that people all over the earth will mourn at his coming. He only comes like a thief in the night to those who are asleep, but to us who are awake he will not overtake us like a thief.

Sue, that is true. But, Jesus did say "you do not know at what hour your Lord cometh."

Also, he says that it will be at a time "when ye think not."

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So, if we are watching for Him it will still come at an unknown time.

Every eye will see Him at the 2nd coming. It will be public. But, the Rapture is a different event outlined in 1 Thes 4.

[Trust & Obey]

Likewise, a post tirbulation stance does allow for an imminent return of Christ, but that it will occur at the end of tribulation.

How is it "imminent" today if it can't happen for at least 7 years?

[Christ's Free Servant]

that was awesome.

and great reasoning and teaching

without getting into pre trib and all the theories, it seems like the Word alone does clearly indicate intense hardship for believers during the last days.

i have always been astounded by Matthew 10:37-38: He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.  And he who does not take up his cross and folloe after Me in is not worthy of me.  He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

that has always sounded so serious to me, so relevant.  take up your cross....the cross is an instrument of death........this is such a great call, it is the Truth.  We have been warned, Jesus Himself said the Son of Man had no place to rest His head; that a prophet is not without honor except in his own country.  We read over and over that this walk will be full of hardship; that the world will hate us; that there will be trials and our faith tested.  it is a serious thing to pick up the cross, an instrument of death, and follow after the Living God.

to take this lightly or to in some way believe that because we are called, we are spared  hardship and challenge is very dangerous.  if you think of it, this pre-trib theology is often times accompanied with the whole health $wealth theology as well.  to think that we are to lead safe; unchallenged, unharmed, uninjured, physically well, financially well, etc..... breeds in us a luke warm, complacent faith; one that's main appeal is all about us (safety health weall FOR US).  a less theologized Christianity might give way to diligence, pursuit of righteousness, faithfulness, integrity, and vigorous working to glorify His name.  It might cause us who know that our salvation is by faith, to show our faiths by worshipping our God in our actions.  It might even cause to sell all we've got for this 'one pearl of great price'

God's will be done in this body that we might be ready and appear worthy before Him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you are on target!!

(Thanks, guys and gals for keeping this thread friendly!!)

[Karen C.]

Some food for thought:

http://prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=9

To begin with, there is great confusion about the purpose, nature, and scope of the Tribulation. First and foremost, it is aimed at setting straight the unregenerate state of the world. Since the days of ancient Babylon and Egypt, corrupt Gentile governments have oppressed the hapless millions, who have been mired in paganism and tormented by the dark forces on high.

But even in those early post-flood days, God made it known that He planned a Kingdom that would come to encompass all the systems of the world. Furthermore, that Kingdom would be led from the throne of David. The Gentile powers will one day collapse and subsequently be required to pay homage to that throne. They will be forced to obey the King, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

With the foregoing in mind, and before dealing with the question of whether the church will escape the Tribulation, we must clarify its purpose.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, in his book, Footsteps of the Messiah, outlines three basic purposes of the Tribulation:

Number one, it will bring wickedness to an end. To illustrate this thought, he quotes Isaiah 13:9."Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."

To emphasize the point, he quotes Isaiah 24:19,20. "The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

"The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again."

Here, we plainly see that God wants the transgressions of man to be utterly destroyed, never to rise again. Note also, that He uses the most relentless and unmerciful methods to achieve His ends. Truly, the harshness of this period almost defies description. It shakes the very Earth.

Secondly, the Tribulation will bring about a worldwide revival. This global event will be led by selected members of the twelve tribes of Israel, from among the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel" (Revelation 7:2-4).

Thirdly, and perhaps most tellingly, the Tribulation will break the stubborn will of the Jewish nation. There are two key passages that make this point. The first comes from Daniel, as the angel tells the prophet what will happen to his people in the latter days:

"And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished" (Daniel 12:6,7).

These "holy people" are none other than latter-day national Israel.

The next passage is found in Ezekiel 20:37,38 describing Israel's latter-day regathering and judgment:

"And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

"And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD."

These three aspects of the Tribulation illustrate that God will break the Gentile world power and spiritually prepare Israel for Kingdom rule under the Messiah. It is no wonder that in Jeremiah 30:7, it is called "the time of Jacob's trouble." Jacob, of course, is Israel. His twelve sons produced the twelve tribes.

Thus, the outcome of the Tribulation is specifically tailored to provide the setting for the rule of regathered Israel. By contrast, there is no Scripture that defines the Tribulation as directed toward a judgment and consolidation of the church.

The Wrath of God

Versus The Wrath of Satan

There has been much discussion about the timing of the rapture. Will the church be caught up prior to the Tribulation, or will it perhaps be taken some time during its first half or second half? Some have even speculated that the rapture follows the Tribulation.

Will the church remain on Earth long enough to witness the revealing of the Antichrist?

Chapter two of II Thessalonians does, indeed, open with Paul's reassuring words to the believers, concerning the rapture of the church. In a pleading tone, he begs them to remain calm. As this letter unfolds, it becomes quite plain that he is attempting to counter the false teachings of certain unscrupulous men.

These men, some of whom audaciously wrote under Paul's name, were spreading the false rumor that the "day of Christ" (synonymous with the Day of the Lord) was upon them:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand" (II Thessalonians 2:1,2).

These two paragraphs of Scripture tell us that the Thessalonian believers were in a state of anxiety. Why? Because false teachers were on verge of convincing them that they were about to experience the Day of the Lord - the Tribulation.

After Paul had left Thessalonica, false teachers had come in, spreading a post-Tribulational doctrine. They were apparently saying either that the church was already in the Tribulation, or that it was only days or hours away.

Mentioned at least 21 times in the Old Testament, the Day of the Lord is also called the Time of Jacob's Trouble, the Tribulation, the Scourge, the Day of Vengeance, the Year of Recompense, The Day of Wrath, Wasteness, Distress, Desolation, Darkness, Gloominess, Clouds, Thick Darkness, The Day of the Trumpet and Alarm.

In the New Testament, it is mentioned at least 9 times. Here, among other things, it is called The Tribulation, The Great Tribulation, The Wrath of God and the Hour of Trial. In II Thessalonians 2:2, it is called, "the day of Christ."

In Matthew 24:21, Jesus, Himself, referred to it as, "... great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Doubtless, the Thessalonian believers had been taught about a future time of judgment, and even knew the words of Jesus on the matter. If a false teacher had them convinced that they were about to go through the earth-shattering time of horror known as the Tribulation, it's no wonder that they were unnerved.

Paul's letter is directed at convincing them of a recognizable order of events preceding the Tribulation, by which they could be warned. He tells them, in effect, not to worry, that the Tribulation will not develop until certain key events have come to pass. He doesn't want these faithful, early believers to be tricked or deceived.

The next three verses make this abundantly clear:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" (II Thessalonians 2:3-5).

What verse 3 really says is, "That day (The Day of Christ) shall not come, until two conditions are fulfilled: the falling away, and the unveiling of the man of sin." In other words, two things must happen prior to the Tribulation.

In making this statement, Paul brings a good word, and badly needed emotional relief to a group of the faithful who are convinced that they are about to fall under the control of a supernaturally wicked man and his evil system.

The Thessalonian believers were doubtless familiar with both Old and New Testament teachings about the Day of the Lord. They knew it as a time when everyone then living would experience the effects of God's judgment. Furthermore, they realized that it was the time of the "abomination of desolation," mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24:15, in reference to Daniel 9:27. They knew (and we know) that this will be a time when God permits great evil to rise to its fullness. Supernatural horrors will become commonplace.

It is important to remember that Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians was written in AD 51. At this time, the Temple still stood in Jerusalem. The family of Herod had nearly completed construction on the vast Temple Mount complex, which had begun in 19 BC. One of the great ironies of history is recorded in the fact that Herod's Temple only reached completion about a year before the Roman army reduced it to rubble.

However, at the time of Paul's letter, it would be another nineteen years until it was destroyed, in AD 70. Upon reading this letter, Thessalonian believers were doubtless impressed with its words. After all, the Temple still stood! In their mind's eye, they could envision a coming day - perhaps in the not-too-distant future - when that man whom we call Antichrist would present himself there, representing himself as a god.

For them, it was an imminent event. The various sects of the Jewish priesthood still served there daily. The Jewish festivals were still observed there. This being the case, it was no doubt quite easy for false teachers to convince them that the Day of Christ was virtually upon them.

But now Paul's reassuring words eased their minds. He said that two things had to happen before that day could come. The first was something called, "a falling away." Could this mean that some sort of apostasy had to happen, paving the way for the man of sin?

How could this be, given that twenty years earlier, Jesus had already pronounced the corrupt priesthood as apostate? No, apostasy had already come; the falling away had to be something else.

Today, 1,948 years after Paul wrote this letter, the man of sin still hasn't stood up in the Temple and pronounced godhood upon himself. Furthermore, these passing centuries have witnessed a myriad of apostasies. The world has witnessed a plethora of cults and "isms." There have literally been more false teachers than true ones. We still have the same question as the ancient Thessalonian believers. Since apostasy has historically dominated the world's cultures, we wonder what the "falling away" could possibly be, that hasn't already happened?

Certainly, the epistles of Paul, Peter, John and Jude all present scenarios in which the latter days (or last days) will be marked by especially wicked departures from true Apostolic teaching.

In II Peter 2:1, certain "false teachers" are said to introduce heretical teachings. The context and analysis of this letter shows that certainly, the work of these evil men has reached its greatest height in the twentieth century. II Peter 3:3 says, "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days, scoffers ." These are the false teachers, both sacred and secular, who will even deny the second coming of Christ.

In I and II John, the Apostle says that these latter-day false teachers will deny the Trinity, the miraculous incarnation of Christ and His existence in a physical body.

In I Timothy 4:1, Paul refers to the false teachers as, "... giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." In II Timothy 3:8, he describes these wicked leaders in the following way: "Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith."

The composite picture of these men shows that their corruption has ranged into the accursed realm of the irredeemable. They are completely sold into the service of Satan. While posing as men of God, they are really pagan representatives of satanic powers.

Again, however, we must say that the entire church age has seen the rise and fall of men such as these. In the name of Christ, they have tortured and killed the faithful. Their denominations are among the wealthiest organizations on earth.

So what is this "falling away" that must precede the Tribulation? In order to be identifiable, it must be worse than anything seen so far.

Perhaps there is another answer. It is presented in The Rapture Question, by Dr. John F. Walvoord. He quotes E. Schuyler English, in his interpretation of II Thessalonians 2:3.

Walvoord writes, "In reference to the day of the Lord, this passage states: 'Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.' The expression 'the rebellion' is the translation for the Greek word apostasia. It is normally considered a reference to doctrinal apostasy. English pointed out that the word is derived from the verb aphistemi, used fifteen times in the New Testament with only three of the references relating to religious departure. In eleven of the instances the word depart is a good translation. As English indicated in a note, a number of ancient versions such as Tyndale's, the Coverdale Bible, the version by Cranmer, the Geneva Bible, and Beza's translation, all from the sixteenth century, render the term 'departing.' He therefore suggested the possibility of rendering II Thessalonians 2:3 to the effect that the departure must 'come first,' i.e., the rapture of the church must occur before the man of sin is revealed. If this translation be admitted, it would constitute an explicit statement that the rapture of the church occurs before the Tribulation."

Given the foregoing explanations, it would then seem that the "falling away" is either rampant, open and overt demonic expressions of power within the church, or the rapture itself.

Certainly, we have not witnessed the former. That is, this generation hasn't seen forms of apostasy that haven't already been present in one way or another since the deaths of the Apostles.

Neither has the rapture yet occurred. Therefore, the Tribulation is not "at hand" today, any more than it was in Paul's day.

The second prerequisite that Paul mentions is the actual unveiling of the man of sin. In verse 3 of the above-quoted passage, he tells us that the Day of the Lord shall not come, except the man of sin be revealed.

This too, has not happened to date. Though many have speculated upon the identity of the Antichrist, and some have inferred in their prophetic studies that he must be alive today, no one can tell you who he is.

The bottom line is this: Given Paul's stipulation of these two preconditions for the Tribulation, we must assume that the Day of God's Wrath is still some time in the future. Put in another way, the rapture of the church is now imminent; the Tribulation is not.

The Wrath of Satan

Versus The Wrath of God.

The truth is that many blessed martyrs of all ages have been tortured in unspeakable ways by the tyrants and heretics of history. One has only to read Foxe's Book of Martyrs to hammer this point home once and for all. What's more, this tradition goes all the way back to Christ, Himself.

The Roman cross was an instrument of torture, specifically designed to produce a lingering, agonizing, pain-wracked death of suffocation. Furthermore, hanging unclothed before jeering crowds also assured a wrenching torture of the soul.

And throughout the Church Age, the faithful have been subject to that same wrath. His own disciples and the Apostles, themselves, suffered torture and death. As Jesus told them in John 16:32,33, "Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

As Jesus uttered these words, He knew the difference between tribulation in general, and the seven-year Tribulation yet to come.

Likewise, the Apostles knew the difference. As Paul traveled through Asia Minor, he was most concerned that his disciples there would not be deceived about the difficult conditions surrounding their faith:

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

Again, Paul was not deluded about the difficult nature of the Christian faith. In this world where the spiritual high ground is often held by the forces of darkness, tribulation should be considered almost the norm. As he said in II Corinthians 11:23-28:

"Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

"Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

"Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

"In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

"In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

"Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches."

This is tribulation! Yet, as we have demonstrated above, Paul clearly taught that the church would be caught up some time prior to the Tribulation.

Job certainly knew tribulation. In Job 5:7, we read, "Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward." But without a doubt, it was not the wrath of God that brought Job his period of tribulation. It was the wrath of Satan, eager to prove to the Lord that Job would crack under the strain of sufficient testing.

The Old Testament prophets had no doubt that there would one day be a period when God's wrath would descend upon men. Zephaniah 2:14 calls it, "The Great day of the Lord."

Zephaniah 2:15 calls it, "That day of wrath." And Zephaniah 2:3 has a special message to those who are alive in that future day:

"Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger."

Could the prophet be referring here to a pretribulation rapture? Many think so.

Certainly, those present on earth in the days of the sixth seal, referenced in Revelation 6:16, have no doubt about the source of the wrath that is raining down upon them:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."

At the opening of the Tribulation Period, we discover without a doubt, that the Wrath of God is the source of man's troubles. This is the difference between the suffering of martyrs during the church age and the suffering of mankind during the Tribulation. It is simply the difference between the wrath of Satan and the Wrath of God. The church is not called to endure the Wrath of God