Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Kabowd]

Cardcaptor, I do not believe in eternal security so I have not responded to your posts up to now, but I do have a question for you. If we did not inherit Adam's sin, why was it necessary Jesus be born of a virgin?

Honestly, I don't know why he chose a virgin. If I had to give an answer I would say that he did it for the puirty of Mary and for this scripture:

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Those are completely taken out of context. The truth is, we are born sinful...even before we have ever disobeyed God. It's in our nature. It's who we are. This is the reason we needed a Savior, a new identity. We needed a new spiritual "DNA" because ours was tainted.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." (Psa 51:5)

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 5:12-21)

"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him." (Pro 22:1)

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth." (Psa 58:3)

I could go on, but this should be sufficient in showing you that we are not born "innocent".

[eric]

Brother eric,

The Scriptures tell what works that the 'Saved person' does which demonstrate His faith. The Scriptures are the 'sword of the Spirit' who leads all beleivers into all truth by the washing of the Word.

2Tim 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];

3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I just love it when God makes things crystal clear. All Scripture is how we know what good works the 'saved person' is to do when he is created unto 'good works'. It is interesting that the only Scripture in existence at that time was the 'Old Testament'. So I think that God is telling us that even the 'Old Testament' is to be used as doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction is righteousness, obedience and good works.

God Bless,

Dennis

Yeah yeah, I know all that. What are the

works That I am to carry out that will stop me from having my salvation annuled. I have already obtained my salvation, by grace through faith. which is a gift, not through works should any man boast. Cardcaptor, and you, by the sound of it, say that faith is not enough to save a person from being damned.

Read Eph.2:8-9 again. and for goodness sake, believe it. I am not cocerned with OSAS or eternal security. The above scripture plainly says works will not save you.

So what I am saying is, when I've been saved by grace thru faith and I decide to sit back and rest on my laurels, and do nothing, am I damned for all eternity.

Yes or No.

eric.

Edited January 2, 2006 by eric

[Kabowd]

Tess

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." (Psa 51:5)

That is not what that is saying because that would then contradict what was written in Ezekiel. Anyway it says they were "in", not "with". One of the definitions of the word in is "surrounded by", like if I was "in" water. This is referring to we are born into a sinful world with a body prone to sinning. This is why Paul taught of the war that is within him. We were born into a body that likes to and prefers to sin because our flesh likes to be feed.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

We were made subject to sinning.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam

Once again, leave this in its context.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Remember what verse 13 says: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Also verse 14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Nevertheless - however; yet

Because the Old Law and the New Law exist sin is present because to transgress either law was death. Wages of sin is death. Between Adam and Moses there was not written law, but we know there was the law of the patriarchs. When people died sinned under that law they died also.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

What he is trying to convey in romans 5 is that death reigned from Adam to Moses because they had a law, but we don't know what it was or consisted of. And the people died even if they did not committ the same sin that Adam did.

"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him." (Pro 22:1)

This one is speaking of actually punishing your child, even to spanking them.

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth." (Psa 58:3)

This is speaking committing sin, not being born with imputed sin. David wrote on many occasions how wicked the world is and is expressing here that they start young. I heard on the radio the other day about an 11 year old being incarcerated. Abook was written about kids who kill. Yes, children start young into sin, but that does not prove being born with Adams sin imputed on me before birth.

Heresy....

[apothanein kerdos]

but just as these children of the Father left the Father's house, went astray through wilful sin, and came back, the same analogie can appropriately be used to any believer that gets saved, goes astray, and returns. Under the law as I already showed those guilty of presumptuous sins were utterly cut off. Today, those guilty of wilful sins are cut off.

There is no justification in the text to assert this at all! These people were lost, and are now found. This is in no way refering to Christians becase Christians didn't exist yet. Christ was saying that the kingdom was now open to sinners, to those that were lost. This has NOTHING to do with salvation being eternal or temporary.

As for your argument about the validity of commentaries, the fact these men are educated is why I don't trust them. Where were they educated? If they went to a Baptist college they were indoctrinated with Baptist theology. If they went to a Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc. college they were likewise indoctrinated with their theology. I would rather put my confidence in the Bible without the tainted views of such men.

Oh, and let me guess, you're the only person alive that doesn't have a prejudice when interpreting scripture?

They use Greek, Hebrew, other passages, history, context, etc to draw their conclusions. You can argue "prejudice" all you want, but it's not going to hold.

[eric]

cardcaptor

You are digging yourself into a hole, mate.

Doesn't Mary also have the inherited sin or does that only apply to men and women don't have inherited sin?

Mary knew she was in need of a saviour. Which men and women do you know who don't have inherited sin, except Jesus Himself.

You are well out of your depth.

eric.

[Avodah]

If a person gets saved and then goes out and commits wilful or presumptuous sins, they simply confess those sins and the one sacrifice Jesus made is sufficient to save us anew.

Wrong!!! We are saved and given eternal life once. We confess our sins for forgiveness and to bring restoration to our relationship with the Lord. Confession does not get us saved again and again and again. That just does not make sense.

How can He promise us eternal life upon salvation if he is going to take it away from us the minute we sin? That would make God a lier.

You guys just don't make a strong case for what you are saying. It is confusing and makes abolutely no sense.

[eric]

cardcaptor

All I asked for was a simple YES or NO.

The works you cite, after salvation, are not works that save you but merely evidence that you have been saved. But I think Tess has already told you that. There is no way you can work yourself into eternal salvation. No way.

eric.

[Avodah]

It is your doctrine that makes no sense. It is a watered down version of Calvanism and since it mixes part of his teachings with the idea we have a free will to accept or reject salvation, it doesn't make any sense.

Can anyone conversate without accusing? I don't even know what Calvanism is.

I am bowing out simply because I am not a debator and I think it gets pretty ugly here.

[apothanein kerdos]

I am going to trust my own judgement on Biblical matters above what someone wrote.

When you expouse such ignorance and unwillingness to learn I see absolutely no point in discussing ANYTHING with you. What you just said is so full of pride and arrogance that there is no point in any form of discussion.

[Kabowd]

cardcaptor

You are digging yourself into a hole, mate.

Doesn't Mary also have the inherited sin or does that only apply to men and women don't have inherited sin?

Mary knew she was in need of a saviour. Which men and women do you know who don't have inherited sin, except Jesus Himself.

You are well out of your depth.

eric.

What do you mean that Mary was in need of a savior? Every man woman and child in the history of this planet has never been inherited sin. You can look in your bible from now until doomsday and never fin these words in the same scripture "Inherited sin" nor will you find and implication of the such.

The scripture says, "The soul that sins, it shall die", not "You will die for Adams sin".

"And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." (Luk 1:47) [Mary speaking]

Did you not read my previous post about being born into sin?