Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Pilgrim7]

Cardcaptor,

Amen, we all inherit the 'carnal or sinful nature', the mind that is not subject to the law of God, but is captive to sinful desires. Since 'sin is transgression of the Law, the 'new born' has not transgressed yet. Just give him/her time. Mary inherited the sinful nature just as we all do.

God bless and hang in there, thank God for Butero.

Dennis

[Kabowd]

Oh yes, yay for heresy and legalism! Woo Hoo!!!! *throws confetti*

[apothanein kerdos]

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.

[eric]

THESE WORKS ARE NOT FOR THE SAKE OF EARNING OUR SALVATION."

I realise that, But you are stating that if we dont do these works we are damned and that is not so.

I know personally of two men who received the Lord in hospital and never came out of hospital in time to do any good works. Are you saying they are damned because they didn't live long enough to affect good works?........I dont think so, simply because you dont earn salvation. It's freely given, otherwise Christ died in vain. It was His blood that cleanses us from sin, and the Holy Spirit that indwells us that saves us.

It's time this thread was locked/

eric.

[apothanein kerdos]

I am going to trust my own judgement on Biblical matters above what someone wrote.

When you expouse such ignorance and unwillingness to learn I see absolutely no point in discussing ANYTHING with you. What you just said is so full of pride and arrogance that there is no point in any form of discussion.

You are no better than the typical liberal politician. You take one sentence out of context to try to make a point. I said that since God told us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, I will trust my own judgement on Biblical matters above what someone wrote. My point is, I am not going to take chances on someone leading me astray with a biasedly written commentary. I have the Word of God which I know I can rely on and the Holy Ghost for a teacher. If you want to put your faith in commentaries go right ahead, but it still does not invalidate what I said about their doctrinal biases.

Yes it does because your doctrine is just as bias. These men know Greek, history, context....they have spent day after day studying the issue. You have not. THey are more qualified then you are.

The fact remains, you are too arrogant to rely on anything other than yourself. Fact is, these men are much smatter then you or I could ever hope to be, so to not at least consider them, or realize they are probably right and we are wrong, is nothing more than arrogance.

LIke I said, there is no point discussing anything with you when you refuse to look to history, context, original language, or qualified teachers.

[apothanein kerdos]

I am going to trust my own judgement on Biblical matters above what someone wrote.

When you expouse such ignorance and unwillingness to learn I see absolutely no point in discussing ANYTHING with you. What you just said is so full of pride and arrogance that there is no point in any form of discussion.

You are no better than the typical liberal politician. You take one sentence out of context to try to make a point. I said that since God told us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, I will trust my own judgement on Biblical matters above what someone wrote. My point is, I am not going to take chances on someone leading me astray with a biasedly written commentary. I have the Word of God which I know I can rely on and the Holy Ghost for a teacher. If you want to put your faith in commentaries go right ahead, but it still does not invalidate what I said about their doctrinal biases.

Yes it does because your doctrine is just as bias. These men know Greek, history, context....they have spent day after day studying the issue. You have not. THey are more qualified then you are.

The fact remains, you are too arrogant to rely on anything other than yourself. Fact is, these men are much smatter then you or I could ever hope to be, so to not at least consider them, or realize they are probably right and we are wrong, is nothing more than arrogance.

LIke I said, there is no point discussing anything with you when you refuse to look to history, context, original language, or qualified teachers.

And since these different commentaries will often contradict each other, how do you decide which one is right?

Easy, compare it to actual history, Greek, Hebrew, context, historical interpretation, and a whole other lists of tests. It's actually very simple. Now some issues (such as predestination) is controversial and be justified by either side....thus commentaries (while they help) cannot settle the issue. Other issues though are easily settled in this manner.

[apothanein kerdos]

I am going to trust my own judgement on Biblical matters above what someone wrote.

When you expouse such ignorance and unwillingness to learn I see absolutely no point in discussing ANYTHING with you. What you just said is so full of pride and arrogance that there is no point in any form of discussion.

You are no better than the typical liberal politician. You take one sentence out of context to try to make a point. I said that since God told us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, I will trust my own judgement on Biblical matters above what someone wrote. My point is, I am not going to take chances on someone leading me astray with a biasedly written commentary. I have the Word of God which I know I can rely on and the Holy Ghost for a teacher. If you want to put your faith in commentaries go right ahead, but it still does not invalidate what I said about their doctrinal biases.

Yes it does because your doctrine is just as bias. These men know Greek, history, context....they have spent day after day studying the issue. You have not. THey are more qualified then you are.

The fact remains, you are too arrogant to rely on anything other than yourself. Fact is, these men are much smatter then you or I could ever hope to be, so to not at least consider them, or realize they are probably right and we are wrong, is nothing more than arrogance.

LIke I said, there is no point discussing anything with you when you refuse to look to history, context, original language, or qualified teachers.

And since these different commentaries will often contradict each other, how do you decide which one is right?

Easy, compare it to actual history, Greek, Hebrew, context, historical interpretation, and a whole other lists of tests. It's actually very simple. Now some issues (such as predestination) is controversial and be justified by either side....thus commentaries (while they help) cannot settle the issue. Other issues though are easily settled in this manner.

I have news for you. All historians do not agree on the issues. There are debates over which manuscripts are best to translate scripture from. When all is said and done, you are left with making up your own mind what is right and what is wrong, so while you may not reject commentaries outright as I do, you still go according to your own reasoning as you should on what you believe. After all, it is your soul.

Individualized faith (the belief we are in charge of our own soul and we should trust our own interpretation) is actually a heresy. DOn't believe me? Why else do you think we have scripture?

Anyway, historians can disagree all they want. You look to the most logical conclusion. Of the two of us, I hold more expirience in this issue and am also more studied in this issue. I think I know what is included in studying history, and while some fringe historians will disagree, they can't disagree that certain things are written. You're grasping at straws. When what you say (salvation by works) is contradicted by history, commentaries, historical interpretation, Greek, and the list goes on....yo uhave nothing left to stand on. In fact, your reasoning is what justified the rise of Mormonism.

[apothanein kerdos]

There are people with degrees on both sides of the eternal security issue, and I am sure that there are people more educated than you that disagree with your conclusion. Does that mean you will conform to their beliefs if it can be proven they have one more degree than you? That's a fine way to determine what is right and what is wrong.

I have no problem with those that disagree with salvation not being eternal. However, I've yet to come across someone, or at least a majority, that believe as you do (that our works determine our salvation). To them, only a prolonged lifestyle of sin ALONG WITH a verbal rejection of Christ will lead to it. It is disputable, but most of the facts line up on the eternal security side.

As for degrees....could you possibly misunderstand my point anymore? It's not a matter of degrees, it's what you do with it. I've debated men with double doctrates and have come out on top because of how I utilize history, logic, etc. Degrees help, but in the end it's how you use the education you've recieved.

[apothanein kerdos]

That is why I decided some time back to simply read and re-read the Bible for myself and come to my own conclusions without their influences. That is why it is unlikely you will find anyone in agreement with me all of the time. My views will at times be in agreement with a conservative Baptist, and at other times will line up with a Pentecostal. I may indeed have biases, but I have tried to come to whatever conclusions I have on my own.

This is why so many people are having a hard time accepting what is being taught from the scriptures, they are relying on what certain faiths, books, commentaries, etc. teach them rather than the good old fashion bible.

Take infant baptism. You will never find a scripture, commandment, or example in the bible of this. To teach anything that is not in ther bible is "Heresy", to not teach anything that is in the bible is "Heresy".

*sigh*

I'd rather trust an educated person than a "spirit filled" fool. People ignoring creeds, historical interpretations, etc is what has given rise to cults, false doctrines, and a watered down gospel.

[apothanein kerdos]

There are people with degrees on both sides of the eternal security issue, and I am sure that there are people more educated than you that disagree with your conclusion. Does that mean you will conform to their beliefs if it can be proven they have one more degree than you? That's a fine way to determine what is right and what is wrong.

I have no problem with those that disagree with salvation not being eternal. However, I've yet to come across someone, or at least a majority, that believe as you do (that our works determine our salvation). To them, only a prolonged lifestyle of sin ALONG WITH a verbal rejection of Christ will lead to it. It is disputable, but most of the facts line up on the eternal security side.

As for degrees....could you possibly misunderstand my point anymore? It's not a matter of degrees, it's what you do with it. I've debated men with double doctrates and have come out on top because of how I utilize history, logic, etc. Degrees help, but in the end it's how you use the education you've recieved.

That is an interesting point, but the ability to win a debate doesn't mean the one that came out on top was right. He was mearly a better debater.

No, I was right too. They were secularists, so if I wan't right, that means there is no Jesus.