Lawlessness Increasing

[The Light]

Just now, Last Daze said:

• Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, "Be on the alert!"  Mark 13:35-37

Hopefully we can agree on our need to stay awake and be alert.  That's sufficient for me.  The rest will work itself out according to the will of God.  Stay awake my friend.

Absolutely brother. Be on the alert. Watch and be ready. Things are changing fast.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Yes and I duly noted this that he was the first fruits of those risen. In this case your analogy works, but in other cases it does not. The firstfruits are a way of saying the first of their kind and those who are living on earth are called firstfruits other places in scripture. To make the assumption that when the word firstfruits is used automatically means they are in heaven is faulty logic. The 144K are the firstfruits of the millennial Kingdom, it does not mean they are raptured or in heaven. They sing the song the heavenly harpers sing who are singing in heaven and heard on the earth, only these 144k can learn that song. this does not mean they are the ones in heaven singing the song. They are in Sion which is Jerusalem, where Christ Jesus is standing at this time.

When you add up all the text:

they [They who? Of course they, the 144,000.] sung as it were a new song before the throne, [Where are they singing? On earth? No, in heaven
 before the throne.] 
and before the four beasts,[Where are the four beasts?] 
and before the elders:[Where are the elders?]
 redeemed from the earth.
they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.[where is the lamb in the timing of Rev. 14? Hint: He does not come to earth until chapter 19]
These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
they are without fault before the throne of God.

The most obvious conclusion is that they are in heaven. Keep in mind, it is in the same chapter and the other harvests are mentioned.  It is when you put all these thoughts together. I agree, it is difficult to prove anything from one verse or from one word. 

The 144K are the firstfruits of the millennial Kingdom  How can you say that when the timing of chapter 14 and the passage we are discussing is even before the days of GT  - the very days of GT Jesus spoke about - and way before Jesus coming in chapter 19.

They sing the song the heavenly harpers sing who are singing in heaven  How can this be when the 144,000 are the ONLY ONE'S who can learn the song? I think the truth is, they - the 144,000 are singing the song. The harpers would have had to learn it first. 

It would be extremely difficult to find any verse anywhere other than this, that would show Jesus on earth ANYTIME during the 70th week. How can He come, when He has said He won't until the day He can drink wine with His fellow saints at His coming as per Rev. 19? It makes far more sense that there is a Mount Sion in heaven also. Again I have to disagree with your theory here. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

...

1 The text uses the term Day of Christ, and actually it is pretribbers that typically make this argument as justification for the rapture.

2 The  Day of the Lord is the day of His Wrath to not distinguish these days is to prove the post trib view of the rapture. I am pre-wrath therefore I believe that Christ comes first in the clouds to remove the church you and I disagree as to when this is timing wise, but both of us need this distinction for our rapture views to work. Think about it.

3 all of it

4 Yes, Christ is LORD, Jesus is the LORD, But there are two separate days, just like there is the wrath of the Lamb and the Wrath of God, they are similar but not the same one is a judgment of the church, the other a judgment of the world. 1 Peter 4:17 makes this distinction as well. You believe in a sixth seal rapture which I agree with you on this is the day of Christ. (I also believe it is the sixth to the seventh trumpet as well) Both of these are followed by the day of the Lord.

5. again, saying this disproves any pretrib or prewrath rapture view, so no I cannot agree to this. You are just shooting yourself in the foot if you try and make this claim. 2 Thess. 2 is specific in the text calling this the day of Christ and that is what I believe.  the day ^G2250 of Christ ^G5547 is at hand. 

g5547 is Christos The KJV translates Strong's G5547 in the following manner: Christ (569x). There is no other way to translate this word

We are not talking about the translation of Christos; we are talking about differences in Greek texts. Some use "kyrious" which is translated as Lord.  Which is the real word used when Paul wrote? We don't really know. However, which did Paul use in His first letter on this subject?

1 Thessalonians 5:2

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:4

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

Because Paul uses the Day of the Lord in His first letter, it makes more sense to me that this was the correct text for his second letter. It is by no means "proof." We have no real "proof." 

 

Next, consider:

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

Try reading it like this:

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the rapture is at hand.

 

What possible sense would that make? If the day of the rapture were at hand, then it would be imminent and they should be rejoicing, not shaken! Therefore, I think Paul actually wrote "day of the Lord."

 

It makes prefect sense that if Paul taught the rapture first, then day of the Lord as I read in his first letter, then when they were told the DAY had come and they were in it, why in the world where they STILL HERE and not raptured?  Of course they would be upset! Maybe Paul was wrong - or maybe they were left behind.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

• Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, "Be on the alert!"  Mark 13:35-37

Hopefully we can agree on our need to stay awake and be alert.  That's sufficient for me.  The rest will work itself out according to the will of God.  Stay awake my friend.

I like this answer!

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Next, consider:

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

Try reading it like this:

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the rapture is at hand.

 

What possible sense would that make? If the day of the rapture were at hand, then it would be imminent and they should be rejoicing, not shaken! Therefore, I think Paul actually wrote "day of the Lord."

 

It makes prefect sense that if Paul taught the rapture first, then day of the Lord as I read in his first letter, then when they were told the DAY had come and they were in it, why in the world where they STILL HERE and not raptured?  Of course they would be upset! Maybe Paul was wrong - or maybe they were left behind.

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

From John MacArthur's commentary, note he is pre-trib in his beliefs... "It describes the state of agitation and distress that had gripped the church. they were greatly distressed, because they had expected the rapture, the gathering together to the LORD to take place before the day of the LORD. They had expected to be taken to glory and heavenly rest , not left to persecution and divine wrath (See 1 Thess. 2-5) Paul must have taught them that they would miss the Day of the LORD, but they had become confused by the persecution they were experiencing. thinking they may have been in the day of the LORD . This error had been reinforced by some messages they had received that they were indeed in the day of the LORD. Paul noted these as a "spirit", "Spoken word" and "Letter".... The Powerful but harmful effect of this false information was gained by claiming it was from Paul ("Seeming to be from us") (MacArthur study Bible)

The distinction of the Day of the LORD and the day of Christ is vital to Both the Prewrath and Pretrib rapture viewpoint, you are arguing against one of the best proofs for both of these positions with your attempted denial here... I am trying to help you out here. Christ comes before the day of the LORD and His wrath, Paul makes that distinction, Pretribbers make that distinction and pre-wrathers make that distinction. We should have this understanding in common amongst us. Correct? 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

they [They who? Of course they, the 144,000.] sung as it were a new song before the throne

The way I explained this to you is following simple rules of grammar you are changing the meaning of they to the 144K and not the heavenly harpers. The subject of the "they" is in the previous verse And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Let me give you an example. David and Lyle went to the mall in Lyle's car. He went to the bookstore first While David looked at the window displays.... Logically and grammatically Lyle is the one that went into the bookstore since he was the last subject in the previous comment David remained outside of the bookstore but looked at the displays. This is all this passage is saying. "They the harpers harping were singing the song, while the 144k learned the song, and only they could. It does not say they went to heaven to sing the song, but rather that they were at Jesus side.... where was Jesus at this time is the real question. He was standing on Mount Sion which has multiple meanings... it can be Jerusalem it can Mt Hermon, It can be the heavenly Sion... we are not given that information.... Remember this comes immediately after the beast and false prophet have ruled for 42 months.... The day of Christ. You have a hard time with this because it places the rapture after the abomination and the rule of the beast. I have no problem with this, as this was the time of the "wrath of Satan" and these 144k were sealed and protected from the wrath of Satan. This is why I am always pointing out to you that the saints are in revelation on earth until chapter 14.... When the fulness of Christ comes upon the gentiles all that will remain is the Woman (The doctrine of the church) and the saints, the overcomers See Eph 4: 11-16. The 144k are not the saints, for the beast and the false prophet make war on the saints and overcome them, whereas the 144k are protected with a seal. The whole point of the great tribulation is to complete the number of the fifth seal so that we can arrive at the sixth seal... think about that.  

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

From John MacArthur's commentary, note he is pre-trib in his beliefs... "It describes the state of agitation and distress that had gripped the church. they were greatly distressed, because they had expected the rapture, the gathering together to the LORD to take place before the day of the LORD. They had expected to be taken to glory and heavenly rest , not left to persecution and divine wrath (See 1 Thess. 2-5) Paul must have taught them that they would miss the Day of the LORD, but they had become confused by the persecution they were experiencing. thinking they may have been in the day of the LORD . This error had been reinforced by some messages they had received that they were indeed in the day of the LORD. Paul noted these as a "spirit", "Spoken word" and "Letter".... The Powerful but harmful effect of this false information was gained by claiming it was from Paul ("Seeming to be from us") (MacArthur study Bible)

The distinction of the Day of the LORD and the day of Christ is vital to Both the Prewrath and Pretrib rapture viewpoint, you are arguing against one of the best proofs for both of these positions with your attempted denial here... I am trying to help you out here. Christ comes before the day of the LORD and His wrath, Paul makes that distinction, Pretribbers make that distinction and pre-wrathers make that distinction. We should have this understanding in common amongst us. Correct? 

I agree with John MacArthur here.. I might add, this is probably one of the FEW places where I would agree with Him. 

In 1 Thes. 4 & 5 Paul writes as if the rapture and wrath are back to back events: that one triggers the other, so to speak. I think Revelation bears this out, showing us the raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal and before the 7th. 

This certainly fits "pretrib" because "the trib" does not begin until the 7th seal. It does not fit prewrath theory for that theory has the trib and the days of GT before the 6th seal. I have said over and over that prewrath destroys John's chronology. I could well have said prewrath just does not fit.  The seals are in the church age. As Jesus spoke of that time as "the end is not yet."

I stand my what I previously wrote: If the Day of Christ is the day of the rapture, then this is permissible:

 

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the rapture is at hand.

 

I say again, this simply does not fit the scenario as Paul described it.  If they thought the day of Christ was at hand, they would be rejoicing, knowing they were soon to go home.

 

I certainly agree, His coming FOR His church as shown in 1 Thes. 4 will be before wrath.  But where an we go from here to any other point of agreement?

 

 

[dhchristian]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This certainly fits "pretrib" because "the trib" does not begin until the 7th seal. It does not fit prewrath theory for that theory has the trib and the days of GT before the 6th seal. I have said over and over that prewrath destroys John's chronology. I could well have said prewrath just does not fit.  The seals are in the church age. As Jesus spoke of that time as "the end is not yet."

It works with my pre wrath views, because I have the sixth seal after the GT just like Matthew 24 has. So No my view does not destroy John's chronology it enhances it and adds depth to it. But that is another matter altogether as we have interacted with that already. Like I said, the fifth seal is completed in the GT with the Antichrist making war on the saints and overcoming them.... They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers[fn] should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:10-11, ESV)

[TheBlade]

One man controlling the gold and goods of the world (He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver,). I don't think it would not take much (I am NOT SAYING this is happening ) more for that to happen.  It was hard for me to apply what is written to today. I thought so much has to happen first.  Yet look how fast it changed.. just over night. If your anything like me...your like "am I going crazy?" "".For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

This for me is the crazy part.. truth is now a lie and that lie is now the truth. I believe God is about to do something so wonderful.. a harvest like no other before the lawless one comes.

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

...

The way I explained this to you is following simple rules of grammar you are changing the meaning of they to the 144K and not the heavenly harpers. The subject of the "they" is in the previous verse And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Let me give you an example. David and Lyle went to the mall in Lyle's car. He went to the bookstore first While David looked at the window displays.... Logically and grammatically Lyle is the one that went into the bookstore since he was the last subject in the previous comment David remained outside of the bookstore but looked at the displays. This is all this passage is saying. "They the harpers harping were singing the song, while the 144k learned the song, and only they could. It does not say they went to heaven to sing the song, but rather that they were at Jesus side.... where was Jesus at this time is the real question. He was standing on Mount Sion which has multiple meanings... it can be Jerusalem it can Mt Hermon, It can be the heavenly Sion... we are not given that information.... Remember this comes immediately after the beast and false prophet have ruled for 42 months.... The day of Christ. You have a hard time with this because it places the rapture after the abomination and the rule of the beast. I have no problem with this, as this was the time of the "wrath of Satan" and these 144k were sealed and protected from the wrath of Satan. This is why I am always pointing out to you that the saints are in revelation on earth until chapter 14.... When the fulness of Christ comes upon the gentiles all that will remain is the Woman (The doctrine of the church) and the saints, the overcomers See Eph 4: 11-16. The 144k are not the saints, for the beast and the false prophet make war on the saints and overcome them, whereas the 144k are protected with a seal. The whole point of the great tribulation is to complete the number of the fifth seal so that we can arrive at the sixth seal... think about that.  

 

My husband and ten kids went to the store. Then loud voices of shouting were heard from that direction - the voices sounded like human voices. They soon arrived back home. 

There is really nothing in "then," or "loud," or "voices" or  "shouting" or even "human" that one could tie "they" to. The Antecedent must be John and frank. It would not make sense that "voices" arrived home.

Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. ² And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. ³ And they sang ....  NASB

In our verse, it would be improper to tie "they" back to "a voice." 

with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. ² And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. ³ And they sang...   (NIV)  

Again one could not make "the sound" the antecedent for "they."

an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;

² and I heard a voice out of the heaven, as a voice of many waters, and as a voice of great thunder, and a voice I heard of harpers harping with their harps,

³ and they sing... (Young's Literal)

Again it would be improper to tie "they" back to "a voice." 

In short, it is the 144,000 singing. And they are in heaven singing. 

. Remember this comes immediately after the beast and false prophet have ruled for 42 months.  Why do you reverse the order john wrote things - as if John was in error? The Beast and false prophet are who will enforce the mark, and God gives His warning not to take the mark just AFTER this mention of the 144,000. The truth is, they Beast and False prophet had BEGUN to reign but have not at this moment in time started to enforce the image or mark. 

this was the time of the "wrath of Satan" and these 144k were sealed and protected from the wrath of Satan.  Again, you say just the opposite of what John says. The 144,000 were seals from a trumpet of GOD, a judgment of God. 

Rev. 9:1  The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. ² When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. ³ And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. ⁴ They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Notice what started this judgment: an ANGEL sounded a trumpet. This is not Satan's wrath, it is GOD'S wrath.  Don't be confused on whose wrath is whose: in chapter 14 Satan's wrath in enforcing the image and mark are just about to BEGIN. We see the beheaded (Satan's wrath) BEGIN to show up in chapter 19. 

I understand, this does not fit prewrath theory, so you are forced to rearrange. I get it. I see it all the time. The truth is, prewrath theory simply does not fit Revelation as written. 

The whole point of the great tribulation is to complete the number of the fifth seal so that we can arrive at the sixth seal... think about that.    You simply amaze me. The whole point of the days of GT are the "shattering and crushing the power of the holy people" (Dan. 12:7 AMP)

And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand toward the heavens and swore by Him Who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half a time [or three and one-half years]; and when they have made an end of shattering and crushing the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Today Israel depends on their IDF for protection. God is going to get them to the place where their IDF is GONE! Totally destroyed, and Jerusalem surrounded. They will be brought to their knees and they finally get it: if God does not immediately intervene, their hope will be gone forever - and that is when Jesus shows up.  Well, it seems you have missed it on every point. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

It works with my pre wrath views, because I have the sixth seal after the GT just like Matthew 24 has. So No my view does not destroy John's chronology it enhances it and adds depth to it. But that is another matter altogether as we have interacted with that already. Like I said, the fifth seal is completed in the GT with the Antichrist making war on the saints and overcoming them.... They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers[fn] should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:10-11, ESV)

You can place the 6th seal after the GT in your mind, but I can assure you, when these things happen, they are going to happen in the exact order John has them written. 

Where you miss it: You imagine the signs for HIS COMING are the same as the signs for the DAY OF THE LORD.  They are not the same, and these two signs  - when they come - will come over 7 year apart, exactly as is written. 

It all goes back to chapters 4 & 5: miss the 32 AD timing of the first seal, and all the rest of the theories will be off. The 5th seal is really the martyrs of the church age. 

Where you miss it: Follow John's timing:

Chapter 6: the 6th seal begins the Day of the Lord
Chapter 8: start of the 70th week with the first trumpet
Chapter 9: Trumpets in the first half of the week
Chapter 10: describes what will happen in chapter 11. 
Chapter 11: two mentions of the last 3/5 years prove this is a midpoint chapter. 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.
Chapter 12: The fleeing and protection prove this a midpoint chapter: God introduces John to the Dragon, who is behind it all.
Chapter 13: The 42 months prove this to be a midpoint chapter: God introduces John to the Beast and False Prophet and tells what they will do.
Chapter 14: God warns people not to take the mark (common sense is that the mark is NOT YET being enforced
Chapter 15: the days of GT have started and the beheaded are JUST NOW starting to show up in heaven. They are enforcing the image and mark.
Chapter 16: the wrath of Satan is at its peak, as millions are being beheaded: so God pours out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days.

As you see, John takes the reader are a straight walk through time, from before the week to the start of the week to the midpoint of the week to the second half of the week to the days of GT and then to the vials that will shorten those days of GT and then to the end of the week with the 7th vial.

Any other theory will be proven wrong.