Lawlessness Increasing

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You can't understand the word, therefore I am not taking it from the word, according to you. 

Of course the one other possibility is the reverse.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The simple reading of Matthew 24, is that birth Pangs lead to the actual delivery.... which is the "great tribulation" which then leads to the birth.

All of this "theorizing" though beneficial in some ways twists this simple Truth. If we are at Matthew 24:12, and lawlessness increasing, what comes after this is the Gospel of the Kingdom being preached, followed by the abomination and the great tribulation, in the first half of the final week as this is "when the end begins". The sixth seal is not opened till after this time of Great tribulation.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ….For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (24:12-15, 21)

I think a lot of pre-trib rapture believers will be shocked when they witness the abomination occurring, although some will fall into the strong delusion because they loved not the Truth. The Truth is simple, not convoluted and requiring a doctorate to understand, but based on simple faith in the word of God as written and spoken by Jesus.  

I think a lot of post-trib rapture believers will be shocked when they discover the rapture has occurred and they were left behind - exactly like they were believing. Some might fall into the strong delusion because they were so sure they were right. The pretrib truth is simple, not convoluted and requiring a doctorate to understand, but based on simple faith in the word of God as written by Paul: rapture - then wrath.  This may also be true for prewrath believers. 

We are at the 5th seal, waiting for the very last church age martyr to be killed, and waiting on the fullness of the Gentiles to come in. The actually delivery in Matthew 24 will be His coming to Armageddon and then soon after the birth of the Millennial Kingdom. Sorry, but the days of Great Tribulation Jesus spoke of will come in the second half: all the 5 mentions of the last half of the week, in Rev. 11, 12, and 13, are midpoint chapters. The Beast and False Prophet that will cause those days of Gt are seen in chapter 13. Then God's warning for people not to take the mark is in chapter 14, showing us that the days of GT are still after that. Finally we see those who were martyred begin to show up in heaven in chapter 15. The days of GT Jesus spoke of are therefore at the end of chapter 14, through chapter 15, and into chapter 16, where the week ends. 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, branchesofHim said:

Just a thought ….. aren't the trumpets symbolic of the of the trumpets signaling the arrival of the bridegroom (Jesus) ? Shalom.

The 7 trumpets are judgments. 

[Alive]

I do not believe that some of God's children will be left behind at the rapture because they don't understand when the rapture takes place.

Do you guys actually think that way?

[dhchristian]

15 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think a lot of post-trib rapture believers will be shocked when they discover the rapture has occurred and they were left behind - exactly like they were believing. Some might fall into the strong delusion because they were so sure they were right. The pretrib truth is simple, not convoluted and requiring a doctorate to understand, but based on simple faith in the word of God as written by Paul: rapture - then wrath.  This may also be true for prewrath believers. 

We are at the 5th seal, waiting for the very last church age martyr to be killed, and waiting on the fullness of the Gentiles to come in. The actually delivery in Matthew 24 will be His coming to Armageddon and then soon after the birth of the Millennial Kingdom. Sorry, but the days of Great Tribulation Jesus spoke of will come in the second half: all the 5 mentions of the last half of the week, in Rev. 11, 12, and 13, are midpoint chapters. The Beast and False Prophet that will cause those days of Gt are seen in chapter 13. Then God's warning for people not to take the mark is in chapter 14, showing us that the days of GT are still after that. Finally we see those who were martyred begin to show up in heaven in chapter 15. The days of GT Jesus spoke of are therefore at the end of chapter 14, through chapter 15, and into chapter 16, where the week ends. 

I agree with you on the first five seals being opened already and we are waiting for the fifth to be completed, (the number of saints to be martyred). I agree the sixth seal is the rapture and is next. But you have the problem of Matthew 24:15-28, between then and now which includes the great tribulation, and just to make it clear, Jesus says Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (verse 29),  which is describing the sixth seal and the rapture. Mind you, none of this is the "wrath of God" there will be plagues from God, which will be his mercy not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance, But they are not His wrath. So when is the rapture? Pre wrath in the middle of the week, the first half of the week being the great tribulation. 

You are so close to seeing this, But just do not want to believe that we will live through the Great tribulation. (Or die as saints as the case may be, till that number is fulfilled) Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers[fn] should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:11,ESV)

[Revelation Man]

39 minutes ago, The Light said:

No, I didn't add anything. Most translations say age. Why did the New King James version switch to age?

NKJV

Matt 24

³ Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

We can use world if you prefer, but we know that it is "world without end".

You don't get what I am saying, YOU ADDED it by not properly understand the order of the THREE QUESTIONS, thus for some reason you seemingly think Jesus just ignored the first question they asked or you yourself don;t even see it, thus you ADDED it to the end times when its not. The Temple has been destroyed, anyone who states it hasn't I don't take serious brother. 

So, you BOLD ABOVE  doesn't grasp that the "TELL US WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE"............Pertains to the ONE STORY Jesus told them about originally. Let me how you what Jesus talked to them about.

Matt. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

NOW comes the THREE QUESTIONS..........Here is where you conflate this with the END TIMES !!

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? AND what shall be the sign of thy coming, AND of the end of the world?

FIRST QUESTION............When shall these things be? WHAT THINGS ? What Jesus just spoke to the about, the Temple being Destroyed.  ONLY AFTER THIS do they ask the other two questions, see the word AND.............AND used twice in the sentence brother? 

So, allow me to translate to modern English for you. The KJV doesn't stump me, but the other translations didn't do a great job either.

So, they basically asked Jesus this way in MODERN English.........When will the Temple be torn down Jesus {THESE THINGS}.......AND what will be the SIGN that hints you are coming........AND a sign that the world is soon to End. 

So, in all that translation, you somehow get the first part as being about the END TIMES, when its not, and the Disciples had no clue anyway, there were just asking for clarity. So Jesus answers their FIRST QUESTION FIRST in verses 4-6. Its about the Temple in 70 AD being torn down. NOT THE END TIMES !!

Then the sign of his coming happens when Light? At the Rapture............So, he goes from verses 7-14 explaining the Church Age, we will be Raptured when he COMES FOR US !! Amen. When  He calls us home. Then the End of the World is the 70th week Tribulations. 

So, what I am saying is you string the THREE QUESTION TOGETHER Contextually, when that s not how they were asked nor answered. They even match the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Jesus tells us about THESE THINGS [which he just spoke about], then he tells us about the sign of his coming, this can never be about the Second Coming because no one needs a sign of this, we know the signs of that, the Anti-Christ and world leaders will be gathering to try and defeat God at Armageddon. And the end of the world = the 70th week signs. Jesus tells them this in verses 29-31. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Exactly, tell when these things shall be. What things? You seem to want to forget what Mark and Luke have to say so you can cherry pick the verse in Matthew.

Luke 21

⁷ And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

So when shall these things be, and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass. What things? The time when there will not be one stone upon another. That time has not happened and will happen during the end times.

All scriptures agree, I am not going to change a chapter so you or others can try to cherry pick passages, when you have to do that it just proves you are not using a practical understanding. Matthew is not wrong. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

I used to be off-tracked until I realized that we need to look at Mark 13 and Luke 21 to get a complete perspective. You seem to want to cast aside part of scripture. There is still one stone upon another and we can see by looking at Mark 13 and Luke 21 that events of the Temple being cast down and the sign of His coming occur at the same time.

 

You are off track now because you think the BIRTH PANGS/Sorrows last into the 70th week. That is not possible, you have yet to answer that point. Birth Pangs/Sorrows are the DELIVERY of the Baby, they can not exist once the Baby is birthed. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Exactly, tell when these things shall be. What things? You seem to want to forget what Mark and Luke have to say so you can cherry pick the verse in Matthew.

Luke 21

⁷ And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

So when shall these things be, and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass. What things? The time when there will not be one stone upon another. That time has not happened and will happen during the end times.

Well you made a wrong turn, just because you made a wrong turn doesn't mean you are correct on this now brother. 

The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

1 hour ago, The Light said:

There is no 70 AD in Matthew 24 or Mark 13. If you  are looking for 70AD you might check Luke 21. I don't know why you can't get this.

Sure, Jesus wasn't talking about the 70 AD Temples destruction...............................................SMH. Come on man.

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Exactly, the end is not yet. THESE ARE THE BEGINNING OF SORROWS.

 

You have the BIRTH PANGS as being the 70th week, no the Birth Pangs BIRTH the 70th week. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

None of it. It is the beginning of sorrows. The end is not yet. Seems simple enough.

 

It does, but you don;t get that the BIRTH PANGS aint the baby. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

I learned it by reading it. It's pretty simple if you just put things where God says they go and put away the sledge hammer. Quit pounding things into places they do not belong.

 

Yet you think the Sorrows is the 70th week. That is real simple logic gone wrong brrother.

Its like you are saying 2+2=7

1 hour ago, The Light said:

This is something that you decided to imagine because you don't understand the time line. The 1st six seals are the 70th week of Daniel.

 

You are the MISSING TIMELINE KING........

1 hour ago, The Light said:

You are completely confusing the seventh king and the eighth king. The 42 months, time, times and half a time comes after the 70th week is OVER.

 

The 7th King is the Anti-Christ the 8th King is Apollyon, that's above your pay-grade. You went off the cliff on the last sentence. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

There is no 70 AD in Matthew 24 or Mark 13. If you  are looking for 70AD you might check Luke 21. I don't know why you can't get this.

I'm good.

1 hour ago, The Light said:

I'm saying that Jesus tells us what will happen during the end times. Don't you think that what Jesus says about end times would fit perfectly with what John says in Revelation? It matches up perfectly and yet you can't see it.

Are you able to see that these are the same events?

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matt. 4-6 is 70 AD..........Matt. 7-14 is the Church Age..............Matt. 15-31 is the 70th Week, what part of this do you not understand means that verse 29 is indeed the 70th week? 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

You think that the birth pangs bring the baby of the 70th week. That's just not true. The birth pangs bring forth the wrath of God.

The 70th week is the 1st 6th seals which you seem all too eager to cast aside as PROPHETIC? The 70th week start with the confirmation of the covenant. This happens after the church is already in heaven. The 70th week is about Jacob and has nothing to do with the Church. The Church is already in heaven. See Revelation 5. After the week is over with the gathering from heaven and earth, then the wrath of God begins. Then it is time, times and half a time.

You are all confused on the Book of Revelation. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

All you have to do is just step aside and put away the sledge hammer. If you would only put things where God says they go instead of where you think they have to go.

 

I am in the know...........you are in the NO, No, no, no camp. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

There is no church age or 70 AD event in any of the verses of Matt 24 before the coming Jesus after the tribulation.

 

That you can see...............

1 hour ago, The Light said:

You think that the birth pangs bring the baby of the 70th week. That's just not true. The birth pangs bring forth the wrath of God.

The 70th week is the 1st 6th seals which you seem all too eager to cast aside as PROPHETIC? The 70th week start with the confirmation of the covenant. This happens after the church is already in heaven. The 70th week is about Jacob and has nothing to do with the Church. The Church is already in heaven. See Revelation 5. After the week is over with the gathering from heaven and earth, then the wrath of God begins. Then it is time, times and half a time.

You are in error and sadly will remain in error on this subject brother. 

[dhchristian]

8 minutes ago, Alive said:

I do not believe that some of God's children will be left behind at the rapture because they don't understand when the rapture takes place.

Do you guys actually think that way?

There is only one rapture, It occurs after the great tribulation, those left behind will become part of the Harlot of Revelation 17. In My Book I would rather have believers believing in a pre trib rapture because they will then realize their error and adjust accordingly, rather than believing in a post trib rapture and miss out on the ONLY rapture. I personally am ready to go any time He calls me, pretrib, mid trib or post trib, really is irrelevant to those who are ready and watching for His coming. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. ( Luke 21:34-36) 

[iamlamad]

6 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I agree with you on the first five seals being opened already and we are waiting for the fifth to be completed, (the number of saints to be martyred). I agree the sixth seal is the rapture and is next. But you have the problem of Matthew 24:15-28, between then and now which includes the great tribulation, and just to make it clear, Jesus says Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (verse 29),  which is describing the sixth seal and the rapture. Mind you, none of this is the "wrath of God" there will be plagues from God, which will be his mercy not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance, But they are not His wrath. So when is the rapture? Pre wrath in the middle of the week, the first half of the week being the great tribulation. 

You are so close to seeing this, But just do not want to believe that we will live through the Great tribulation. (Or die as saints as the case may be, till that number is fulfilled) Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers[fn] should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:11,ESV)

Matthew 24 gives me no problems. It should not give you any problems either.  These are the cosmic signs for His coming to Armageddon, and certainly not the cosmic signs for the Day of the Lord. So you are in error imagining these signs are the same. The signs at the 6th seal are visible signs where both the sun and moon are visible and SEEN. They are, without any doubt, total eclipses (of course not at the same time.) When they see this great earthquake and remember Isaiah 2, then see these total eclipses and remember Joel 2, they all know the DAY of the Lord is imminent. They are scared out of their wits. 

Have you still not looked up the Greek word translated "darkened' in Matthew 24 - in Strong's? Allow me: 

1.  to cover with darkness, to darken

2.  to be covered with darkness, be darkened

    a. of heavenly bodies as deprived of light

Notice that when this word is used for the sun and moon, it is that they have NO LIGHT. It will be as if God just turned out the lights. Along with this, we have:

¹⁰ And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Then we have this:

Matthew 24:27

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

This is far more describing lighting in the night, rather than in the day.  When I put all these together, the sign in the sun and moon after the days of GT will be TOTAL DARKNESS: no one is going to see the sun or the moon. 

 

Next is the TIMING: JOhn is clear that the Day of the Lord will start before the WEEK starts. So of necessity of TIME the signs for the coming Day of the Lord will come over 7 years before the signs for His coming seen after the days of GT. 

 

Next is the fact that your have to destroy John's chronology to fit your theory. How much better to just form a theory from Revelation AS WRITTEN?

 

Note: this is the same error that destroyed the ministry of two good men: Rosenthal and Van Kampen. 

 

Therefore, I know that the church is not going to see any part of the days of GT, for they will come in the last half of the 70th week. We won't even be here for any of the trumpet judgments in the first half of the week. I am simply not worried about Matthew 24 that will be for those left behind. 

 

You and I are just not going to agree on this. I am not going to "see this" because it is error. I expect Jesus TOMORROW or tonight. I am expecting Him and Looking for Him. Are you?

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

I am expecting Him and Looking for Him. Are you?

I Am ready and waiting I just think you are going to be wrong.... One day we will both laugh about this in Heaven. 

[Alive]

57 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

There is only one rapture, It occurs after the great tribulation, those left behind will become part of the Harlot of Revelation 17. In My Book I would rather have believers believing in a pre trib rapture because they will then realize their error and adjust accordingly, rather than believing in a post trib rapture and miss out on the ONLY rapture. I personally am ready to go any time He calls me, pretrib, mid trib or post trib, really is irrelevant to those who are ready and watching for His coming. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. ( Luke 21:34-36) 

Well--we will see. A great many scholars and regularly humans disagree. It's interesting that you speak with absolute surety.

:-)