Lawlessness Increasing

[iamlamad]

28 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Am ready and waiting I just think you are going to be wrong.... One day we will both laugh about this in Heaven. 

;-)  You are probably right about laughing. We are going to be doing a lot of that! 

Edited June 13, 2020 by iamlamad

[dhchristian]

Just now, Alive said:

Well--we will see. A great many scholars and regularly humans disagree. It's interesting that you speak with absolute surety.

Surety comes with simplicity, a simple reading of the passage in Matthew 24, Over complication ends with doctrines of men where the intellect is used to convey any alternatives. It is the difference between a person with common sense and a person with a hi IQ but lacking common sense. Keep in mind the what Jesus said: At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Mat. 11:25) AND But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; (1 Cor. 1:27)

For me personally, the long convoluted explanation of these things is not likely to be the correct explanation.... The simplicity of the analogy of birth is one that everyone understands, you have labor pangs and the water breaks and you are giving birth, and when the birth is complete the sorrow turns to Joy, which is also an exact representation of the fall feasts for the Israelites, the 40 days of repentance begin Elul 1 you have the Water breaking at the new year, the 10 days of Awe, the Labor, followed by the day of atonement the birth, followed by ingathering which is the feast where sorrow turns to joy. The same imagery is used in numerous places in scripture, from Micah 5:3, and 1 Thess. 5, to revelation 12. This is known as scripture interpreting scripture.  

[RonaldBruno]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How would John know or the rest know what was in the scroll if Jesus had not opened all of it? 

Yes God revealed it to us because Jesus opened it back in 32 AD. John saw Him arrive in Rev.5:6. He was then handed the scroll, everyone said He was worthy to open it, bowed and worshiped Him and "I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals" Rev.6:1

 

17 hours ago, The Light said:

No, the stars of heaven are angels.

Yes stars are often referred  to as angels. (Morning Star). But a mountain (ablaze) was thrown down into the sea in the previous verse/ 2nd Trumpet and that killed a 1/3 of the fish and sank 1/3 of the boats. The next verse is the 3rd Trumpet and the Star (blazing like a torch) that fell is called Wormwood, turning the rivers bitter and people died. This is not an angel, it is most likely a nuclear bomb. 

 

18 hours ago, The Light said:

So, HOW CAN NO HARM COME AFTER WHAT JUST TRANSPIRED IN THE 1st 6 SEALS? WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON HERE?

We see the six seal opened, we see wrath is about to come, Christ has returned and everyone sees Him.

Here is what you said:   Chapter 7 seems to be a pause before any of this happens.

So try to answer your own question. WHAT IS GOING ON?

Well, you think and some have postulated that many of the Seal events have transpired. Some think the 5th was opened already. Certainly the world has seen wars, famine, pestilence throughout 1988 years and the 20th century has seen more death from wars than the previous 19 combined. However, when the 3rd Seal is opened, when in history did Israel - or the rest of the entire world see a quart of wheat for a days wages or three quarts of barley for a days wages? Sure in 3rd World countries, but not in most. And when the Fourth Seal was opened, when did we see a 1/4 of the earth's population killed by sword, famine, plague and wild beasts? You if you added up all the deaths in 20 centuries - Nope, not even in the 20th century have we seen that magnitude of carnage. So these events haven't taken place.

18 hours ago, The Light said:

The fifth seal is what occurs during the great tribulation. The great tribulation happens toward the end of the 70th week (45 days before the return of the Lord). The 70th week ends at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins. It is time, times and half a time.

All the events of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls occur in the Great Tribulation,.

 

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

the 6th seal signs in the sun and moon are eclipses, plain and simple.

Rev. 6;12-14 is nothing to compare to an eclipse, plain and simply. The great quake shakes the entire earth and mountains and islands move out of their place. This is most likely the same quake as Rev. 16:18 Not that there couldn't be two great earthquake that shake the world. But that one collapses all the buildings. I would say if the one moves mountains and islands out of their place, it is also collapsing buildings.

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why do you keep insisted on a 7th trumpet rapture? That is MYTH with capital letters. Paul is very clear that his rapture comes just before wrath, and the great crowd was seen in heaven BEFORE THE WEEK BEGINS. The 7th trumpet is 3.5 years LATER.  

"The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name ..."

This is the only place where it specifies that the "resurrected dead" are judged, "rewards are given" (Rev. 11:18), clearing indicating that we have just arrived, and to top it off in verse 19, GOD'S TEMPLE IS OPENED IN HEAVEN! 

[iamlamad]

24 minutes ago, RonaldBruno said:

Yes God revealed it to us because Jesus opened it back in 32 AD. John saw Him arrive in Rev.5:6. He was then handed the scroll, everyone said He was worthy to open it, bowed and worshiped Him and "I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals" Rev.6:1

 

Yes stars are often referred  to as angels. (Morning Star). But a mountain (ablaze) was thrown down into the sea in the previous verse/ 2nd Trumpet and that killed a 1/3 of the fish and sank 1/3 of the boats. The next verse is the 3rd Trumpet and the Star (blazing like a torch) that fell is called Wormwood, turning the rivers bitter and people died. This is not an angel, it is most likely a nuclear bomb. 

 

Well, you think and some have postulated that many of the Seal events have transpired. Some think the 5th was opened already. Certainly the world has seen wars, famine, pestilence throughout 1988 years and the 20th century has seen more death from wars than the previous 19 combined. However, when the 3rd Seal is opened, when in history did Israel - or the rest of the entire world see a quart of wheat for a days wages or three quarts of barley for a days wages? Sure in 3rd World countries, but not in most. And when the Fourth Seal was opened, when did we see a 1/4 of the earth's population killed by sword, famine, plague and wild beasts? You if you added up all the deaths in 20 centuries - Nope, not even in the 20th century have we seen that magnitude of carnage. So these events haven't taken place.

All the events of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls occur in the Great Tribulation,.

 

Rev. 6;12-14 is nothing to compare to an eclipse, plain and simply. The great quake shakes the entire earth and mountains and islands move out of their place. This is most likely the same quake as Rev. 16:18 Not that there couldn't be two great earthquake that shake the world. But that one collapses all the buildings. I would say if the one moves mountains and islands out of their place, it is also collapsing buildings.

"The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name ..."

This is the only place where it specifies that the "resurrected dead" are judged, "rewards are given" (Rev. 11:18), clearing indicating that we have just arrived, and to top it off in verse 19, GOD'S TEMPLE IS OPENED IN HEAVEN! 

Sorry, Ronald, but the whole world knows that a total eclipse of the moon make the moon appear blood red. And much of the world knows that during a total solar eclipse the sun appears totally black, like midnight in a coal mine, with a halo around it.  What makes this sign so different than the sign in Matthew 24 that will come 7 years later is that this sign is VISIBLE: how could one know if the moon appeared  blood red unless they SEE IT. On the other hand, the other sign, in Matthew 24, neither the sun or moon is visible for the Greek word for darkened is the total absence of light. And Revelation confirms that darkness will come. Not even the stars will produce light. You are are plain is simply mistaken.  I suggest you read with no preconceptions. Let John's chronology rule: the Matthew 24 signs would be in Rev. 19 if John had seen them - long after the 6th  seal. 

There is a HUGE difference in a quake that moves mountains, and that shakes the mountains down until they are no more. That beg quake that caused the Japan Tsumani actually moved the mountains because it moved the earth off its axis about 6 1/2 inches.  They are not the same quake. Again, let John's chronology guide you: events in chapter 11 are MIDPOINT events, while events in chapter 16 are at the end of the week. 

Don't be led astray by the prophecy given by the elders: these events happen later, proving it is a prophecy.  When God raises the dead in Christ, that is ggoing to cause a worldwide quake, because the dead in Christ are around the world. Some have been dead for nearly 2000 years.Without a doubt, some of the atoms or quarks that once made up those bodies is scattered over a HUGE land area. But in a split microsecond God will bring those particles together to form that same body that was buried.  It is going to be a very serious earthquake and Paul's "sudden destruction." 

However, it will not come close to the incredible quake when God raises the Old Testament saints: this will include those from before the flood. The particles that once made up their bodies could be on the other side of the world! Some could be a thousand miles deep.  God is going to shake the earth terribly when He raises those who died before the flood. I see this resurrection at the 7th vial in chapter 16. So we have to major quakes in Revelation, and several other minor ones.

"The time has come for judging the dead,  Who  said this? Did John? Did God? No, the 23 elders said it AS A PROPHECY.  Judging the dead takes place in chapter 20. Are you going to judge the dead twice - once at the midpoint and once at the end? 

GOD'S TEMPLE IS OPENED IN HEAVEN!   God closes the temple on occasion:

Revelation 15:8

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

 

I guess I would say "so what if the temple is opened?" I think it is opened during much of the book of Revelation. 

I guess you and I will continue to disagree. 

 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, RonaldBruno said:

 

Well, you think and some have postulated that many of the Seal events have transpired. Some think the 5th was opened already. Certainly the world has seen wars, famine, pestilence throughout 1988 years and the 20th century has seen more death from wars than the previous 19 combined. However, when the 3rd Seal is opened, when in history did Israel - or the rest of the entire world see a quart of wheat for a days wages or three quarts of barley for a days wages? Sure in 3rd World countries, but not in most. And when the Fourth Seal was opened, when did we see a 1/4 of the earth's population killed by sword, famine, plague and wild beasts? You if you added up all the deaths in 20 centuries - Nope, not even in the 20th century have we seen that magnitude of carnage. So these events haven't taken place.

Well, you certainly are correct here. Anyone that thinks that the seals are open are just not paying attention to facts.

However, you missed the point I was hoping to make. You made the following observation: The 144k are sealed and in verse 3 is a command, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." How can no harm come to the earth after what just transpired in the first six seals. That's a trick.

I'm not sure how to word this, but here goes. When the seals are opened we see the rider go for forth conquering and to conquer. We see the red horse of war. Do you think that the earth, sea or trees is being hurt when there are wars going off? I'm talking about major wars when peace is taken from the earth, with nations against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms.

Quote

All the events of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls occur in the Great Tribulation,.

 

That would be quite a feat as the great tribulation is only 45 days long. We know the 5th trumpet lasts for 5 month or 150 days, so no what you are saying is not possible.

Edited June 13, 2020 by The Light

[RonaldBruno]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

No, this is "A" rapture. The rapture of the church will happen before any seals are opened. The Church is already in heaven. 70 weeks are determined upon THY people, the people of Daniel. The rapture that you see with the great multitude is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Yeah, I know about the 70 weeks, not an adherent to that theology. It's history, it pointed to Christs first coming. He died and rose in the middle of that week - No gap! God would not give us a specific time frame of 490 years and then extend it for another 2000. Gabriel was a straight shooter, told it like it was.

 

7 hours ago, The Light said:

What I mean is the great multitude includes the dead in Christ, from the time of Christ forward and any Gentile believer that might be alive during the Great Tribulation.

The dead in Christ and alive in Christ as well.

7 hours ago, The Light said:

I would say the first trumpet sounds and then at some point, the second trumpet sounds. The reason I say this is because we know that he fifth trumpet lasts for 5 months. So, I would conclude that the trumpets sound in order with a varying time between each trumpet.

I considered that too, but the trumpets could be blown rapidly and then the events accumulate over time.

7 hours ago, The Light said:

I would think it would be all over the world. I don't think 1/3 of the trees are in the middle east.

I would have to retract that figure. You are correct. The earth has some 3 trillion trees but the Middle East has no where near 1/3. It was speculation. Tying it in with the fact that every nation will be attacking Israel, must include a wider scope of area, possibly Russia and China, Northern and Eastern Africa. ???

7 hours ago, The Light said:

Not sure we can determine for sure it is the middle east, but we do know there will be lots of action there.

Zech. 12:3, 9; Zech. 14:2-4, 12; Joel 3:2

7 hours ago, The Light said:

No, this is not logical. All 6 seals will be completed and Christ will return in the clouds. (see Matt 24 and Rev 14). Then the wrath of God begins.  The events of the 4th trumpet have nothing to do with the sixth seal. We know this for sure because none of the trumpets can occur until the 7th seal is opened.

Well, since you are sure.

 

7 hours ago, The Light said:

It is not 200,000,000 demon locusts. We don't know their number. The second woe has a 200,000.000 million man army. But that happens AFTER the 1st woe of locusts

 Rev. 9:16 reveals that 200 million demons are described to resemble firey red, blue and yellow horses with heads like lions breathing fire. Demons can manifest themselves differently, they can also possess reprobate men and possibly will in this case. There were 200 million and therefore at least 200 million demons released from the Euphrates area, therefore the locusts in the previous trumpet were just different manifestations of these very same demons. It's logical. The locusts came out of the Abyss, then after they were done, transformed into these creatures. Stephen King did a Horror movie that included demon locusts that were huge and stung people, but passes over others. 

7 hours ago, The Light said:

No sir, the four angels of the sixth trumpet cannot be the Four Horsemen. We know this for sure because no trumpets can occur before the 7th seal is opened.

Well again, since you are so sure, we will leave it at that.

[RonaldBruno]

27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

"The time has come for judging the dead,  Who  said this? Did John? Did God?

This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, ALL OF IT. You are picking and choosing scripture that works for your view and scripture that gets in the way, you trivialize as if it wasn't true. Serious scholars have done just this for many years. They find scripture that supports their view and discard or symbolize the scriptures that don't. 

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, Ronald, but the whole world knows that a total eclipse of the moon make the moon appear blood red. And much of the world knows that during a total solar eclipse the sun appears totally black, like midnight in a coal mine, with a halo around it.  What makes this sign so different than the sign in Matthew 24 that will come 7 years later is that this sign is VISIBLE: how could one know if the moon appeared  blood red unless they SEE IT. On the other hand, the other sign, in Matthew 24, neither the sun or moon is visible for the Greek word for darkened is the total absence of light.

Yes, I was very aware of 9-23-2017, the Rev. 12:1 sign in the heavens, then the Blood Moon Tetrad ... followed those guys, I was there. So yes, another eclipse could accompany these events. Actually, I think these guys were valid signs. 

Listen, we have agreed on some stuff. I am just coming from a different view and so no need to bang heads anymore. Let's just see what happens brothers.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, RonaldBruno said:

This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, ALL OF IT. You are picking and choosing scripture that works for your view and scripture that gets in the way, you trivialize as if it wasn't true. Serious scholars have done just this for many years. They find scripture that supports their view and discard or symbolize the scriptures that don't. 

Yes, I was very aware of 9-23-2017, the Rev. 12:1 sign in the heavens, then the Blood Moon Tetrad ... followed those guys, I was there. So yes, another eclipse could accompany these events. Actually, I think these guys were valid signs. 

Listen, we have agreed on some stuff. I am just coming from a different view and so no need to bang heads anymore. Let's just see what happens brothers.

Yes, of course it is all what John wrote, but here John specified that what was spoken was spoken by the 24 elders. And when I examine what they said, I find the same events later on in the book, showing that this was prophecy.

the nations were angry...This is the only time this is mentioned.

thy wrath is come...Is a Second Aorist Active Indicative verb ; which shows something that happened in the past. The Day of His wrath started at the 6th seal, over 3.5 years before this time.

 the time of the dead, that they should be judged  When: right here? Or can we find this happening later?  Is this the righteous dead or the unrighteous dead? The righeous will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ, so this is speaking of the judgment of the unrighteous dead - and we see that their judgment comes at the great, white throne judgment. 

hou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great  Can we see rewards given out later in the book? Yes. In chapter 20, we see thrones and people seated on them judging.  What did Jesus say about this? "Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities." So we see rewards in chapter 20.

shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.  It should be obvious that the destruction of the wicked does not take place here, for the wicked gather at the Battle of Armageddon to fight with God. And there are more wicked as goats at the judgment of the nations.

Therefore, when we study this passage, it is clear that the 24 elders are prophesying - foretelling things that will happen soon - and not that these things happen right here at the 7th trumpet.. 

You are picking and choosing scripture   Yes, I am - I am examining scripture that you used in one way - to demonstrate that the intended meaning was something different: these things are prophecies, and not something that happens right here in chapter 11. 

you trivialize   Did I trivialize these words? No, I only demonstrated they these things actually come to pass later. They certainly will happen; just not in  the time-frame of the 7th trumpet.

Actually, I think these guys were valid signs.  I agree.

See? We do agree on something! 

 

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Apostle John rcvd the Revelation circa 85 AD but Gospel was declared by Jesus Himself at 30 CE, the church only continue His Ministry not the founder of Gospel and Jesus didnt need to open any seal to start His Gospel ministry.

So ur explanation that the 1st seal is the church legally sent to the world is just ur 'story'.

And John wept bitterly just to be shown Himself as the church bringing Gospel to the world  with the 1st seal ? ???

 

John wept because no man was found. Very simple. He seemed to know the great importance of this book, and when no one was found worthy to open it, he wept. 

You do what most do, and just pull that first seal out of its 32 AD context. But you will end up missing the truth of most of the rest of the book.

In the gospels, Jesus DID send out the church to take the gospel to the nations. But here in Revelation, we find out that would have been ILLEGAL unless someone was found worthy to take the book and begin opening the seals.

Yes, agreed: John received this vision around 95 AD. 

The church was sent out with the gospel shortly after Jesus rose from the dead - around 32 AD. 

But when the church was sent out NO ONE KNEW ANYTHING about this book with 7 seals! John only found out in 95 AD. From Revelation, we see what was going on behind the scene. 

What you are missing: this book was and is a LEGAL DOCUMENT created in the throne room of heaven. 
The seals main purpose is to seal the book - prevent anyone from opening it that is not worthy or qualified.
Nothing written in a sealed seal could legally be done until or unless that seal was opened.

You can't just ignore the message of chapters 4 & 5: they are the context for the first seal. 

John used the color white 17 times in Revelation: 16 times to represent righteousness. WE can be SURE the white horse here will represent some kind of righteous overcoming or conquering.  In 32 AD the church was the ONLY "righteous" entity on earth.

[R. Hartono]

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

In the gospels, Jesus DID send out the church to take the gospel to the nations. But here in Revelation, we find out that would have been ILLEGAL unless someone was found worthy

What you are missing: this book was and is a LEGAL DOCUMENT created in the throne room of heaven.

Thats quite an  interesting 'story'.???

Edited June 14, 2020 by R. Hartono