Jesus was holding the scroll, how can He became the white horse rider of the 1st Seal ?

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Matthew 10:34  “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."

 

Thats true Jesus didnt come to bring peace 2000 years ago.

But this fake Messiah will,  as i told u be4 in Daniel 8:25 ...and by peace he shall destroy many.

Antichrist shall come and win peace for the world because its the devil itself behind all the deliberately made crisis n wars, make crisis n appear as hero .

Edited July 29, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Not seeing a correlation here in regards to referencing peace.  David is lamenting over the death of Saul and Jonathan, and interestingly enough, this passage actually supports what I have stated, read it with a little more context.

 

II Samuel 1:14 David said to him, “How is it you were not afraid to put out your hand to destroy the Lord's anointed?” 15 Then David called one of the young men and said, “Go, execute him.” And he struck him down so that he died. 16 And David said to him, “Your blood be on your head, for your own mouth has testified against you, saying, ‘I have killed the Lord's anointed.’”

 

Considering Jesus was the Anointed one, wouldn't you say this is more of a "type" or representation as to what was accomplished on the cross?

The problem you still have not addressed is the fact that this rider was given a crown, who has the authority to give it to him, and doesn't scripture teach us that Jesus was given all authority and crowned?

2 Samuel 1:18 speaks about the Lament of the Bow when the enemy won. This is about antichrist with the bow /peace symbol who wins the world n rule which will be a Lament for the world.

Edited July 29, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

D

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

But it doesn't say anything about the beast being on a white horse does it?

As i told u be4 the devil disguise itself as the angel of light.

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Jeremiah 9:3 they make ready their tongue like a bow to shoot lies.

You could also add Ephesians 6:16

• In addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I am curious, how many times in scripture is the color "white" associated with evil?

It may not be a matter of good vs. evil.  From what I've read, a white horse symbolized victory.  The horse rider is also given a victor's crown so that fits.

As was pointed out earlier, Jeremiah 9:3 states:

• They bend their tongue like their bow; lies and not truth prevail in the land.

That is what I see taking place when the first seal is opened.  The chronology of the last days in summary is stated by Jesus in Matthew 24:14:

• This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The end is brought to pass through the opening of the seven seals.  When the first seal is opened, the rider is allowed to be victorious in his spreading of lies, the arrows of the enemy according to Ephesians 6:16.  Allowing this rider to spread lies after the preaching of the gospel serves the purpose of revealing everyone's faith.  It will challenge and strengthen the faith of those who believe in God, and it will further delude those who have preferred the pleasures of sin and rejected the gospel.  It begins the segregation process.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Thats true Jesus didnt come to bring peace 2000 years ago.

But this fake Messiah will,  as i told u be4 in Daniel 8:25 ...and by peace he shall destroy many.

Antichrist shall come and win peace for the world because its the devil itself behind all the deliberately made crisis n wars, make crisis n appear as hero .

 

Brother, I understand that is the conclusion you have arrived at, but if your conclusion is reached on faulty premises such as the devil having attributes only God has then you have an error in there somewhere.  The dragon and the beast are two separate and distinct entities that not only interact with each other, but are also destroyed at different times roughly 1000 years apart.  I've shown you the scripture that proves this, at some point you have to reconcile the truth of it with your beliefs.

 

5 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

2 Samuel 1:18 speaks about the Lament of the Bow when the enemy won. This is about antichrist with the bow /peace symbol who wins the world n rule which will be a Lament for the world.

 

No it doesn't, I showed you the scripture that makes it clear David is lamenting the death of Saul and his son Jonathan.  Verses do not stand alone, they must be applied in context.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

It may not be a matter of good vs. evil.  From what I've read, a white horse symbolized victory.  The horse rider is also given a victor's crown so that fits.

 

 Hey brother, good to talk with you as always.

I understand what you are saying, but when we take scripture as a whole there is not one single instance where the color white is used to depict or symbolize anything other than holiness.   Then there is the issue of the white rider appearing in two places of the same book and not being consistent with the identity.  As well as victory and the victor's crown would fit more with Jesus than the enemy wouldn't you say?

 

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

As was pointed out earlier, Jeremiah 9:3 states:

• They bend their tongue like their bow; lies and not truth prevail in the land.

 

I agree, and I acknowledge the relevance of that scripture and the possibility it is applicable to the scenario.  In conjunction with your offering from Ephesians credibility is established in that regards.  At the same time, I can also offer scriptures that display God, or an instrument of God (such as Cyrus) depicted with a bow battling against God's enemies, which would support what I see in regards to this.

 

Genesis 49:22 “Joseph is a fruitful bough,
    a fruitful bough by a spring;
    his branches run over the wall.
23 The archers bitterly attacked him,
    shot at him, and harassed him severely,
24 yet his bow remained unmoved;
    his arms were made agile
by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob
    (from there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

 

II Samuel 22:14 The Lord thundered from heaven,
    and the Most High uttered his voice.
15 And he sent out arrows and scattered them;
    lightning, and routed them.

 

These are just two examples, there are a lot more I can produce as well.  In regards to the idea that has been presented by others regarding a bent bow, consider that this in no way implies definitively that a bent bow represents lies or dishonest dealings according to this scripture from the same chapter as II Samuel above.

 

II Samuel 22:35 He trains my hands for war,
    so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.

 

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That is what I see taking place when the first seal is opened.  The chronology of the last days in summary is stated by Jesus in Matthew 24:14:

• This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

I can't say for certain where this falls as far as chronology when factoring in Luke's account and the timeline within it.  Mainly because Luke is the one account that does not include this specific information.  I think though that we agree it is related to the fullness of the Gentiles and that we both see this as yet future.

What I see taking place when the first seal is opened is the genesis of the New Covenant, which is laid out in its entirety within Revelation, and that began with His first advent.  We see this also included in chapter 12 where the birth, attempts by Herod to kill Him as a child, and the establishment of who the woman represents included within the Revelation, which indicates that historical information is directly related to the Revelation.

 

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The end is brought to pass through the opening of the seven seals.  When the first seal is opened, the rider is allowed to be victorious in his spreading of lies, the arrows of the enemy according to Ephesians 6:16.  Allowing this rider to spread lies after the preaching of the gospel serves the purpose of revealing everyone's faith.  It will challenge and strengthen the faith of those who believe in God, and it will further delude those who have preferred the pleasures of sin and rejected the gospel.  It begins the segregation process.

 

I understand, and I am not posting with the intent of convincing anyone of anything, that's God's job if there is an error that needs correcting.  The main reason I decided to post in the first place is because the OP and some who responded, have decided that mockery by method of ignoring God's attributes and even worse, recognizing those attributes as something the enemy possesses, were somehow a solid foundation for their belief.

What I have offered is in my opinion a much more sound and harmonious application of scripture as a whole, and certainly worth considering for anyone that is interested in knowing for certain that what they believe to be true, is actually true.  I know you are a reasonable man, and will consider what a brother offers and decide based on the evidence and personal conviction, others are convinced they know everything and will not give it due consideration.  All I am saying, is that despite the position being called a blunder (not by you), there is merit to it, and I believe more merit than what has been presented to the contrary.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

What I see taking place when the first seal is opened is the genesis of the New Covenant, which is laid out in its entirety within Revelation, and that began with His first advent.  We see this also included in chapter 12 where the birth, attempts by Herod to kill Him as a child, and the establishment of who the woman represents included within the Revelation, which indicates that historical information is directly related to the Revelation.

Hey Wingnut,

The problem I see with that is that the opening of the seals takes place after the letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor. 

• After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”  Revelation 4:1

How could have the gospel gotten to Asia Minor before the new covenant began?  John was told to write three distinct and specific things:

• Therefore write [1] the things which you have seen, and [2] the things which are, and [3] the things which will take place after these things.  Revelation 1:19

Those three things correspond to:

• [1] - the vision of Jesus
• [2] - the seven letters to the seven churches
• [3] - the seven seals

Numbers 2 & 3 correspond to the chronology Jesus gave us in Matthew 24; the gospel will be preached to all nations and then the end will come.  The opening of the first seal follows the preaching of the gospel to all the nations.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The problem I see with that is that the opening of the seals takes place after the letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor. 

• After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”  Revelation 4:1

 

I think we may be reading this in very different ways.  If I'm understanding you correctly, you are applying what must take place after these things to something other than the immediate text that follows it.  When I look at chapter 4, and that phrase from the very first verse I apply it to the events described in that body.  I see nothing within that chapter to indicate this is pointing to a future event and could not be a revealing of what took place in heaven prior to His first advent.  Therefore, the first seal would still be a future event from this event, and yet both still be from the past.

 

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

How could have the gospel gotten to Asia Minor before the new covenant began?  John was told to write three distinct and specific things:

• Therefore write [1] the things which you have seen, and [2] the things which are, and [3] the things which will take place after these things.  Revelation 1:19

Those three things correspond to:

• [1] - the vision of Jesus
• [2] - the seven letters to the seven churches
• [3] - the seven seals

 

This is another instance where we are reading this from two different perspectives.

 

Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

 

Where you place your number one, I just see the instruction to record what is seen, which includes two things, things that are (from the past), and things that are to come (future).  The Revelation contains both the past and the future, to the people living at that time that the letter was to be delivered, the 7 churches.  As I understand it, John sent a single letter that was delivered to the first church as listed, and then circulated to the others in the order he names them, one at a time.  The letter included the entirety of the Revelation, which contains a revealing of both past and future events.

Now some of the things that were yet future to them, may now be in the category of things that are for us, with other things yet future.  I just want to illustrate with an example that precedes this from chapter 1, and see if you can see what I see.

 

Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

[Last Daze]

3 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

I think we may be reading this in very different ways. 

Seems so.  Take care my friend and stay awake!