Evolution vs creation

[Deborah_]

11 minutes ago, David1701 said:

There is something very important that no-one has touched on yet.  Evolution (i.e. molecules to man evolution) undermines the gospel.

The NT says that death came by sin, that Adam and Eve were real people and that as by man came death, even so by man (the Lord Jesus Christ, who is God and man) came the resurrection from the dead.

Evolution denies that death came by sin (it claims many millions of years of death, disease and suffering, before man even existed).

Evolution need not deny that human death came by sin. Once God imprinted His image on us, we were not meant to die - and would not have died, apart from the Fall, because we could eat from the tree of life.

Consider also these factors:

1) If animals did not die prior to man's sin, why did God give them the power to reproduce? The world would rapidly have become overpopulated with mice/beetles/ fish etc

2) If Adam had not witnessed animal death, how could he possibly have understood God's warning - that he himself would die if he ate the forbidden fruit?

[David1701]

33 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Good points and how do you 'evolve' a spirit??

Hmm ... tricky!

[David1701]

27 minutes ago, Deborah_ said:

Evolution need not deny that human death came by sin. Once God imprinted His image on us, we were not meant to die - and would not have died, apart from the Fall, because we could eat from the tree of life.

Consider also these factors:

1) If animals did not die prior to man's sin, why did God give them the power to reproduce? The world would rapidly have become overpopulated with mice/beetles/ fish etc

2) If Adam had not witnessed animal death, how could he possibly have understood God's warning - that he himself would die if he ate the forbidden fruit?

I'm sorry but this is nonsense.

Evolution teaches that it REQUIRES death and the struggle for survival, in order for natural selection to weed out the weak ones.  This is nothing to do with sin.

1) What do you mean "If" animals did not die prior to man's sin?   The Bible says that death came by sin, so animals DID NOT die before Adam sinned.  God gave them the power to reproduce, because he wanted the Earth to be filled.  God is well capable of preventing overpopulation.

2) Adam obviously had understanding built in, when God created him.  He had language, so that he could name the animals, for example.

Your post reads like excuses for unbelief.

Edited July 16, 2020 by David1701

[Deborah_]

50 minutes ago, David1701 said:

I'm sorry but this is nonsense.

Evolution teaches that it REQUIRES death and the struggle for survival, in order for natural selection to weed out the weak ones.  This is nothing to do with sin.

 

Exactly - animal death has nothing to do with human sin.

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

Exactly - animal death has nothing to do with human sin.

That's not what I posted.  This would only be true, if the Bible were a lie.  The Bible says that death (it does not limit it to human death) came by sin.  The first animal death was when God made animal skins as coverings for Adam and Eve (a type of the shed blood of Christ, on the cross), after they had sinned.

[Omegaman 3.0]

4 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

1) If animals did not die prior to man's sin, why did God give them the power to reproduce? The world would rapidly have become overpopulated with mice/beetles/ fish etc

2) If Adam had not witnessed animal death, how could he possibly have understood God's warning - that he himself would die if he ate the forbidden fruit?

1 is only an issue, if things reproduce at a high rate, and don't stop. For example, if people live to be 900, then they don't have to  pop out a kid every year to build a family. God's instruction was to fill the Earth, not to overfill it. Of course though, in reality, an omniscient God can forsee that death would enter the picture, and build into his creation a way to compensate for that!

On statment 2, I do not think you have thought about it much perhaps. Adam and Eve seem to have be created with a working knowledge, the understood words without having to learn what they meant. For example, God said to them:

Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

Look there at all the things the did not know yet from experience. What is fruitful, what is the earth,  what is dominion, what is a fish? That last one is interesting, because Adam had not named the animals yet. If the first couple could understand God, then they could understand what death meant. In any case, it might not even have meant what we think of now by the term>

"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Well, literally speaking as we use the terms typically (day and die), they did not die that day!

Edit: Sorry, I had not noticed that some of these points had been made already.

[Tristen]

Hi again Sophie, I thought to add some more practical advice to my original response.

We shouldn't ever feel obligated to know all the answers. I would therefore propose something like the following statement for your predicament.

"I don't know for sure how to reconcile the secular and Biblical narratives. There are many Christians who take Genesis as history. I'm not convinced that is correct. I currently interpret the Genesis creation account as symbolic. Maybe the creationists are right, and God will one day reveal that to me. Maybe I am right and God will one day correct the creationists. Or maybe there is another explanation entirely. There are many things I don't know and have yet to learn. Only God knows everything. What I do know is that God loves us, and that Jesus died to pay the pardon for my sins, and that I have accepted that pardon by declaring Jesus as my Lord. If Jesus is also your Lord, then we are fellow children of God. And one day God will reveal that truth to us. For now, I am elated that I am in His grace. And anything I need to know to fulfil His purpose for my life will be revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. I pray God will do the same for you."

[NOTE: as stated in my earlier post, I am one of the creationists that may, or may not, be correct. So in the above statement, I am presuming to come from your perspective. I hope I haven't overstepped the mark in doing so]

 

[one.opinion]

21 hours ago, Sophie2003 said:

So, I personally believe that evolution was the process in which God created us.

Hi Sophie. I also believe this is the case.

I grew up with the teaching that the universe and everything in it was approximately 6,000 years old. I also believed that any scientist that did not accept this was deluded and brainwashed. I studied Biology as an undergraduate and went on to earn a PhD degree in Molecular Virology. I've taught Biology for over 20 years now. Throughout my 10-ish years of education, although I was not looking to change my mind about YEC, I could not help but learn continuously more about the evidence supporting evolution and saw through the weak arguments that had been presented to me throughout my childhood.

As others have mentioned, I certainly recognize the possibility that I could be wrong about evolution, but it is extremely difficult to explain away the supporting evidence. I believe I have served my Lord faithfully by pursuing knowledge of his creation to the best of my ability. I do not see Christianity and science as any sort of conflict, but as beautiful complements to one another.

I know others with similar beliefs to mine that question whether or not Adam and Eve were archetypes or true individuals, but I believe the genealogies provided in Luke and elsewhere indicate that they were historical people. Dr. Joshua Swamidass (computational biologist at Washington University in St. Louis) has written a book about the Genealogical Adam and Eve, maintaining that God could have indeed created them de novo, just as a literal interpretation of Genesis would indicate, but alongside other humans. It appears that the strongest objections to the concept of evolution are centered on  Adam and Eve, and Dr. Swamidass shows that these objections are unnecessary.

There are several other posters here with similar beliefs to my own, but it is probably safe to say we are in a bit of a minority among the rest of the Worthy population. :-)

[Deborah_]

10 hours ago, David1701 said:

Your post reads like excuses for unbelief.

Unbelief in what, exactly?

[enoob57]

On 7/16/2020 at 12:05 AM, Sophie2003 said:

So, I personally believe that evolution was the process in which God created us. I believe that the Adam and Eve story is not purely history, but a metaphor to explain evolution, and it bothers me when people say “how can you be a Christian if you believe in evolution?” and i always say to them that I don’t view the Bible as 100% literal, because if the Bible were taken 100% literally, it would be acceptable to do things like sell your daughters into slavery. I definitely believe that lots of the stories are literal, for example Jesus rising from the dead, and a lot of other stories. But the ones that can be disproved by science, I believe are metaphors used to convey a bigger meaning.

i don’t really want to see comments of people telling me they think I’m wrong on this post. I respect if you have different beliefs, but please respect mine as well. I simply want to know if anybody else on here does share similar views to me? And if so, how do you cope when people tell you that you can’t believe in both science and God?

evolution is a religion it is not a science....

12 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

Evolution need not deny that human death came by sin. Once God imprinted His image on us, we were not meant to die - and would not have died, apart from the Fall, because we could eat from the tree of life.

Consider also these factors:

1) If animals did not die prior to man's sin, why did God give them the power to reproduce? The world would rapidly have become overpopulated with mice/beetles/ fish etc

2) If Adam had not witnessed animal death, how could he possibly have understood God's warning - that he himself would die if he ate the forbidden fruit?

evolution uses death verse God uses life....

10 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

Exactly - animal death has nothing to do with human sin.

The Bible teaches that all of creation suffers due to the sin initiated into breathed life
 

Rom 8:20-23

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV