The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Well, sometimes one must "throw out the fleece" to "test the waters" (if you'll pardon the mixed metaphors).

What you quoted is absolutely true, IF one remembers that "Christ" means "the Messiah of God"; that is, "the One Anointed by God to be Israel's King."

However, consider the following Venn diagram / pie chart:

The top half of the rectangle (divided from the bottom half by a black line) represents the Gentile nations (or "Goyim" in Hebrew). The bottom half represents the children of Israel (or "bneey Yisra'eel" in Hebrew), here labeled "Israelis." The RED line tracks the difference between those who are inside the Kingdom of God and those who are outside the Kingdom of God. I believe you might consider all of the green area as "Christians," consisting of both Gentile believers and Israeli believers. Notice, too, that the black line is ERASED between the two by Ephesians 2:14. HOWEVER, the black line continues throughout the rest of the rectangle!

The red areas are people who will just REFUSE to come to the Messiah and be a part of God's Kingdom, whether "Jew" or "Greek." The Bible calls these people "sons of Belial" or "bneey bliyya`al" ("sons of a wearing out or failure in order to gain profit or benefit").

The blue areas are people who will become part of God's Kingdom during the Millennium.

The largest part of the children of Israel will return en masse at the beginning of the Millennium because they will recognize and accept the Messiah of God, Yeshua` the Son of David.

The "Sheep" nations are those who treated both the children of Israel and those Gentiles grafted into the "Olive Tree" well prior to the Messiah's return.

God will, throughout the Millennium, diminish the two red sections, and the red line will shift through the blue area above until the Kingdom completely engulfs the world. When the world empire of the Messiah grows to such an extent that there are no more enemies, then the LAST enemy - death - will also be defeated at the Great White Throne Judgment and the sentencing to the Lake of Fire.

Then, Paul tells us (1 Corinthians 15:20-28) that the Messiah Yeshua` ("the Christ Jesus") will deliver the Empire up to His Father, that God may be all in all. Then, Gavri'el ("Gabriel") tells us (through Miryam or "Mary") (Luke 1:30-33) that Yeshua` will go on reigning over Israel forever.

 

The lost "sheep" Jesus came for are the 10 scattered tribes of the Northern House of Israel that after the Assyrian captivity went out through out the earth, not returning to their own lands.  They are different than the Southern House of Judah, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin who after their captivity went back to their lands which I am sure had some of the peoples FROM the Northern tribes, but couldn't be many as GOD HAD SCATTERED THEM.

We KNOW this because IT WAS AFTER Christ flesh TIME ON EARTH

THAT

PETER AND PAUL RECEIVED THE VISIONS TO CALL THE GENTILES/NATIONS/ETHNOS/NOT OF ISRAEL to salvation.

That is as far as I got on your chart with the Blue wedge being called "the sheep nations" or goyim/gentiles.  

The sheep may have "lost" who they were but the Lord (THE SHEPHERD) DID NOT.   Hence,  WHO JESUS CAME FOR.  To let them know how to get BACK to God, as Christians, their salvation offered through the GIFT of the blood of the Lamb, now opened up to the gentiles

[wingnut-]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

Look, just ask for Wikipedia's article on "Seven churches of Asia" Here's a link: Seven churches of Asia. You'll get a nice map and a pretty good description of where each church was located. You can also follow the link on that page to Asia Minor (Anatolia) where one can get a map on which one may zoom in closer to read the names of the various cities.

 

Thanks brother for the links, it's good information for anyone not familiar with the locations.  I have looked at this before, I think maybe we just saw the questions differently in that I was answering in regards to whether I thought the location had significance in regards to the future.  In regards to it being significant in the past I think you and I agree that it surely did.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

It feels like the doctrines of today are just like the laws that had been put out by the "men of God" back when Jesus walked the earth.  They are BINDING.  Gods Word grows when it is set free of "mans conditions" put upon it.  I digress and am sorry, things you already know and understand,  I hope you don't mind,  I just need to vent sometimes 

I get it. I think we all have similar experiences when we choose to follow God's written word and ignore the word of mankind, when looking to understand God's word.

Speaking of tells a big one is citing man's works of interpretation of God's word. Another is lack of all or most of relevant scripture:

Pretrib, preterism, dispensationalism, amillennialism...you get the idea.

This is where we get understanding of God's word:

"Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." - James 1

"For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous:" - Proverbs 2

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." - Ephesians 1

"The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.' - Psalm 119

And on and on it goes proving God will send His Spirit of truth to give understanding to those who diligently seek His truth with pure hearts. 

Amazing!

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Matt 24:34

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Mark 13:30

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Luke 21:32

Highly significant to the entire discourse.

 

I agree.

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

The entire teaching from the question:

“Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?” - Matt 24:3

“Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?” - Mark 13:4

“Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?” - Luke 21:7

 

Who is the "US" that is asking?  That matters too don't you think?

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

to the conclusion is a whole and it's for the generation that sees all the things in the discourse. Certainly the 1st century disciples experienced trials, etc., but this discourse falls under the umbrella of the terminal generation, 'that sees all these things'. 

 

If a condition exists, and continues to exist from the time it began until the time of the end, then doesn't every generation from the beginning of that condition until the end see it?

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

That cannot be the 1st century as none of the events in the discourse have happened in relation to the return of Jesus in the sight of a single generation. That one sentence in all three gospels cements the discourse in the time/space continuum as future.

 

It is not limited to the future when it occurred in the 1st century, when Luke says "But before all this" that is very specific timing in which the event would occur.  It would precede what Matthew and Mark defined as birth pains or the beginning of sorrows, and it did.  We see this played out in the lives of the very 4 men whom Jesus was speaking to, and one of them, being John, tells us that not only did people depart from the faith, he calls them many anti-christs.

Jesus told them, some of you will be put to death, Peter was crucified, James was beheaded, my memory fails me on what fate Andrew suffered, but John would survive being boiled in oil and go on to write Revelation later.  As Jesus said, some of them were in fact put to death.  Being crucified or beheaded is no less significant in the 1st century than it would be in the future, and I am sure you would agree with that.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's obvious the letters to the churches were to existing congregations circa 95 AD but they apply to all ages.

 

 I never said that there is truth in those letters that cannot be applied over the ages, I said that those letters were written for those churches in that time and the truth within those letters directly applied to them.

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Taken as whole, which must be done as very few teachings in scripture, if any, are fully realized by cherry picking desirable verses, we should understand the letters in relation to the entire Revelation of Jesus Christ. It doesn't seem reasonable to me to isolate the letters; divorcing the encouragement and warnings and rewards from the book of which they are a part.

 

The question that I responded to was, WHY would the 7 churches receive letters about the end times prophecy?

The answer is simple really, because they were living in the end times, and so has everyone from the 1st century until the return of Christ.  The individuals at those churches were facing heavy persecution and many of them would be killed in the near future, so their eternal state rested in the balance of them getting right with the Lord, thus all the admonitions.

The implication, whether intended or not, was that these things had nothing to do with them.  Yet there are parts of those letters that are not applicable today, nor to anyone since that time, so producing verses regarding the death of Antipas or food sacrificed to idols and used to trick Jews are very clear examples of things that cannot and do not apply to everyone through the ages.  It is not cherry picking to point these facts out when someone is implying these letters were not applicable to those people.

Trying to disprove this by introducing arguments I never made, such as exhortations or messages of repentance not applying to future generations does not refute the facts that I stated.  The letters applied to the people that first received them, which you seem to agree with, and if that is the case then you don't disagree with me about the letters.

[Diaste]

18 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Who is the "US" that is asking?  That matters too don't you think?

It might be relevant but I wouldn't see it as a limiter. If we begin to limit scripture to a finite set where does it end?

20 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

If a condition exists, and continues to exist from the time it began until the time of the end, then doesn't every generation from the beginning of that condition until the end see it?

The one condition, sure. The Discourse is reaches much further to the point of the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. "This generation shall not pass till all these things are fulfilled." must include the Return and the gathering. In that sense then Matt 24:4-10 will occur in the terminal generation. I'm not saying this passage is only for the end of the age and the Return of the King. In the context of the Discourse it's directly related.

26 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

It is not limited to the future when it occurred in the 1st century, when Luke says "But before all this" that is very specific timing in which the event would occur.  It would precede what Matthew and Mark defined as birth pains or the beginning of sorrows, and it did.  We see this played out in the lives of the very 4 men whom Jesus was speaking to, and one of them, being John, tells us that not only did people depart from the faith, he calls them many anti-christs.

Jesus told them, some of you will be put to death, Peter was crucified, James was beheaded, my memory fails me on what fate Andrew suffered, but John would survive being boiled in oil and go on to write Revelation later.  As Jesus said, some of them were in fact put to death.  Being crucified or beheaded is no less significant in the 1st century than it would be in the future, and I am sure you would agree with that.

Agreed, it's not limited. What's "before all this"? I see Luke 21:12-19 as the conditions and events of GT in relation to followers of Jesus. What's happening in that passage can exist or begin with the events and conditions of Luke 21:10-11 ongoing during the same period. In my mind the end is the Return of Jesus and the gathering. In that context the previous scenario is unforced. I used to think that the prophecies would come to pass as stated in a strict order, one begins and ends and the next begins then ends, and so on. That's not a demand in any of the end of the age prophecies. There is constant overlap of the fulfillment. Even when specific duration is mentioned no prohibition of overlap is seen.

What you say is true, "We see this played out in the lives of the very 4 men whom Jesus was speaking to, and one of them, being John, tells us that not only did people depart from the faith, he calls them many anti-christs.".

Not sure that would cancel the same warnings for the terminal generation.

 

[DeighAnn]

30 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I get it. I think we all have similar experiences when we choose to follow God's written word and ignore the word of mankind, when looking to understand God's word.

Speaking of tells a big one is citing man's works of interpretation of God's word. Another is lack of all or most of relevant scripture:

Pretrib, preterism, dispensationalism, amillennialism...you get the idea.

This is where we get understanding of God's word:

"Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." - James 1

"For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous:" - Proverbs 2

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." - Ephesians 1

"The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.' - Psalm 119

And on and on it goes proving God will send His Spirit of truth to give understanding to those who diligently seek His truth with pure hearts. 

Amazing!

Tears of joy came upon me as I read this.   Thank God, and thank you.  Yes, yes, yes.  

Never again, after the Spirit has given understanding the first time do you ever go anywhere else again.  Or need to.  Can't give it away, can't explain it and can't hardly wait for the next time, every time.  Makes you truly understand what being CAPTIVE means.  
 

2 Corinthians 10:2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2 Corinthians 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

2 Corinthians 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

2 Corinthians 10:9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.

2 Corinthians 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

2 Corinthians 10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

2 Corinthians 10:13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

2 Corinthians 10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:

2 Corinthians 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

2 Corinthians 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.

2 Corinthians 10:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

2 Corinthians 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

 

[Diaste]

17 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

 I never said that there is truth in those letters that cannot be applied over the ages, I said that those letters were written for those churches in that time and the truth within those letters directly applied to them.

I agree. 

17 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

 

The question that I responded to was, WHY would the 7 churches receive letters about the end times prophecy?

The answer is simple really, because they were living in the end times, and so has everyone from the 1st century until the return of Christ.  The individuals at those churches were facing heavy persecution and many of them would be killed in the near future, so their eternal state rested in the balance of them getting right with the Lord, thus all the admonitions.

The implication, whether intended or not, was that these things had nothing to do with them.  Yet there are parts of those letters that are not applicable today, nor to anyone since that time, so producing verses regarding the death of Antipas or food sacrificed to idols and used to trick Jews are very clear examples of things that cannot and do not apply to everyone through the ages.  It is not cherry picking to point these facts out when someone is implying these letters were not applicable to those people.

Trying to disprove this by introducing arguments I never made, such as exhortations or messages of repentance not applying to future generations does not refute the facts that I stated.  The letters applied to the people that first received them, which you seem to agree with, and if that is the case then you don't disagree with me about the letters.

Was she saying they didn't apply? Maybe I have wildly misunderstood. Yes, of course they applied to the 1st century church. I apologize if I got off at the wrong stop here.

Of course I agree. What I didn't agree with, and what I may have misunderstood, is an allusion the 1st century is the end of the application. 

And why wouldn't the examples given apply to everyone down through the ages? That's not this discussion but I'm betting we need to be on guard for the same. The teachings of Balaam, the Nicolaitans, Jezebel, the cause of martyrs, Satan's seat, etc., are all spirit driven. I feel this is all relevant. Even if a specific event is ancient it's lesson is timeless.

They, and we, are in the last days. We have not yet reached the end of the age.

Again, I apologize for any misunderstanding. I do that sometimes.

[Diaste]

39 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

It is not cherry picking to point these facts out when someone is implying these letters were not applicable to those people.

Maybe another apology is in order.

I was making a general observation about how some doctrines are constructed. I didn't mean to imply specifics. 

I apologize for not being clear.

[wingnut-]

8 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It might be relevant but I wouldn't see it as a limiter. If we begin to limit scripture to a finite set where does it end?

 

I agree completely, and that is what I am saying, it is not limited to the future when we know it already happened and continues to happen and will happen again very similar to the manner in which it first happened.

 

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Agreed, it's not limited. What's "before all this"? I see Luke 21:12-19 as the conditions and events of GT in relation to followers of Jesus. What's happening in that passage can exist or begin with the events and conditions of Luke 21:10-11 ongoing during the same period. In my mind the end is the Return of Jesus and the gathering. In that context the previous scenario is unforced. I used to think that the prophecies would come to pass as stated in a strict order, one begins and ends and the next begins then ends, and so on. That's not a demand in any of the end of the age prophecies. There is constant overlap of the fulfillment. Even when specific duration is mentioned no prohibition of overlap is seen.

 

I agree with what you are saying, but at the end of verse 11 in Luke, would you agree that the terrors and great signs from heaven align with events we see in Revelation?  Such as, the wormwood event, the signs in heaven at the sixth seal, two witnesses that can bring fire down from heaven and stop the rain from coming, a false prophet that can also bring fire down from heaven, etc.  Did those type of events come before or after what Luke describes in verses 12-19?  From a historical aspect, did those celestial events occur in the life of the disciples, or MUST they come after what we know did occur in their lives?

So for example from Matthew's account, he mentions the lightning in the sky from east to west and associates that with the Coming of the Son of Man, and this is said before the section regarding the AoD.  We know that the AoD comes first, so the chronology aspect of the Olivet discourse is still dependent on the sequence of events.  In other words, the Olivet discourse is not laid out chronologically either, we still have to use the verbal clues given throughout scripture that construct the sequence.

 

32 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Not sure that would cancel the same warnings for the terminal generation.

 

I am not saying that they don't, what I am saying is the sequence still has to follow what is written.  So here is my question, when the falling away that you see as future occurs, would you say it comes before or after the implementation of the mark of the beast?  Will the mark of the beast have any effect on people departing from the faith?