Why can't we blame God for things that happen?

[Wesley L]

On 8/24/2020 at 4:27 PM, Faithwilldo said:

You said:

God also created mankind, not willing that mankind would sin. Does that mean that nobody would sin?

God was not only willing that mankind would sin, He caused it to happen.

Prov 16:4  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Ecc 1:13  An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Adam and Eve were made in such a way (subject to vanity) they could not have done anything but sin just like we all do.  Eve even displayed the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life BEFORE she sinned.

You said:

By saying everybody will be saved by God, by saying there is no punishment in hell , you are calling Jesus Christ a liar. Don't be blinded by your own desires. Be fair and use scripture to understand God's will, not using scripture to support your personal desires and personal understanding. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ alone.

The Elect are the only ones who are going to be saved in this present age.  They are the First Fruits of God's harvest of mankind.  The main harvest of mankind occurs at the end of the final age. 

Our salvation requires judgment because it teaches us the righteousness of God.  Since the First Fruits are the first to be saved, they are the first to be judged:

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Christ is only working at present to save His Elect who were chosen from the foundation of the world.  All who remain lost in this age will be resurrected to judgment.  That judgment is symbolized by the term "Lake of Fire".  Fire represents the judgment of Christ.  It is not a literal place and there is no literal fire there.  Also, "hell" is NOT the penalty of sin - death is the penalty.

Here is what Christ's judgment will be like:

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isa 1:27  Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Psa 9:8  And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Psa 33:5  He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Jer 9:24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD.

Amos 5:24  But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

Mark 9:49  For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

1Pet 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Prov 28:5  Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Christ's judgment is not like man's judgment.  When Christ judges someone, they learn righteousness.  To believe that the lost will remain lost forever is not supported by scripture. 

The destruction that is mentioned in scripture is the destruction of our carnal nature (Old Man).  The Old Man is the one who sins and must die.  That is what water baptism symbolizes and what the two pathways Christ mentioned symbolizes.  We all must travel the pathway that leads to destruction.  Upon that destruction, the New Man in Christ is born.  After we are "born again", we must travel the path that leads to the narrow gate.  During that journey, we are judged by Christ so that we mature and produce His spiritual fruit.   We all must "live by every word" that Christ speaks:

Matt 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

God the Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world.  

1John 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Why did the Father send Him?  Because He loves us.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...

Will God's love for us fail?

1 Cor 13:8  Love never fails;

So why do you believe Christ is going to fail to save all mankind?  God does not ever fail at anything because that would be a sin.  

Here is what scripture says about the salvation of mankind:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Rom 5:15  But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. 

Rom 5:18-19  so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.  For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Yes, it is my desire that all mankind be saved.  It is also God's desire and God always accomplishes what He desires:

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Joe

 

 

Hi Joe,

I totally agree with the scriptures that you are sharing. God's words are true.
But I don't agree with the conclusion that you draw out of these scriptures.

The thing is "cause".
Yes, God created mankind
Yes, God even created the ones that became evil.
Actually, no one is good, not even one. So all man fall short to the glory of God.
Did God created evil? Did God cause mankind to sin? May it never be!

• God is the cause of life.
• God is the cause of mankind being able to choose. Good or Evil.
• But God did not cause mankind to sin. God left the choice open for mankind. God is the cause of choice, free will. Mankind chose to disobey, to sin.

To say that God is the cause of evil/sin is blasphemous.
Unless, you have a different definition of cause.

When you try to understand scripture. You have to know God's attributes.
If your understanding of scripture contradicts with God's attributes, then that understanding is in error.
God is Holy, how can He cause evil or sin? (unless you have a different definition of cause)

God is Omnipotent
God is Omnipresent
God is Omniscient 
God is Holy.
God is Righteous.
God is Loving
God is Merciful

Not everybody is saved. That is very clear through scripture. (matthew 7:22-23)
The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all, for sure. But not all are willing to repent and trust in Jesus Christ.
We are only saved through faith in Jesus Christ, the only way.

Jesus Christ is the Word. If we have a wrong understanding of the Word, we are believing in a wrong jesus. 
Only faith in the true Jesus Christ will we be saved.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Wesley L

[Faithwilldo]

17 hours ago, Wesley L said:

Hi Joe,

I totally agree with the scriptures that you are sharing. God's words are true.
But I don't agree with the conclusion that you draw out of these scriptures.

The thing is "cause".
Yes, God created mankind
Yes, God even created the ones that became evil.
Actually, no one is good, not even one. So all man fall short to the glory of God.
Did God created evil? Did God cause mankind to sin? May it never be!

• God is the cause of life.
• God is the cause of mankind being able to choose. Good or Evil.
• But God did not cause mankind to sin. God left the choice open for mankind. God is the cause of choice, free will. Mankind chose to disobey, to sin.

To say that God is the cause of evil/sin is blasphemous.
Unless, you have a different definition of cause.

When you try to understand scripture. You have to know God's attributes.
If your understanding of scripture contradicts with God's attributes, then that understanding is in error.
God is Holy, how can He cause evil or sin? (unless you have a different definition of cause)

God is Omnipotent
God is Omnipresent
God is Omniscient 
God is Holy.
God is Righteous.
God is Loving
God is Merciful

Not everybody is saved. That is very clear through scripture. (matthew 7:22-23)
The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all, for sure. But not all are willing to repent and trust in Jesus Christ.
We are only saved through faith in Jesus Christ, the only way.

Jesus Christ is the Word. If we have a wrong understanding of the Word, we are believing in a wrong jesus. 
Only faith in the true Jesus Christ will we be saved.

 

How can you say that God did not create evil when scripture plainly says that He creates evil and that He has given mankind an experience of evil?   How would scripture have to say it for you to believe it??? 

Also, God made man "subject to vanity" without asking our permission to do so.  Did God do it by mistake?  Surely He knew we would be sinning machines or did this catch Him by surprise, too?  

Also, you keep saying that not everyone is saved.  Christ is not trying to save everyone at this time.  He is ONLY saving the Elect whom He will use in the final age to help bring in the full harvest of mankind.  You are only seeing what Christ is doing now.  Matt 7:22-23 that you mentioned only shows fallen away believers being rejected by Christ.  But His rejection is not final.  Why do you think it is? 

Lam 3:22  The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;

Christ's work of saving mankind does not end until the last person is saved and then God will be "all in all".

1 Cor 15:20-28  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God can't be "all in all" if most of mankind is still lost.

And scripture says that the Jews will be last to be saved:

Matt 19:30  But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Mat 20:8  So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So when does the "fullness of the Gentiles" occur?  When do the Jews receive salvation?  It certainly cannot happen in this present age.  2000 years has already gone by and the "chosen" Gentiles are still being saved plus most Jews still reject Christ.  

Here is what Christ said to one of the Pharisees who crucified Him:

Matt 21:31  Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

With Christ, our salvation is certain since it is 100% His work, only the timing of it is varied.  So when does Christ save this Pharisee that He spoke to?  His salvation has to come after the "fullness of the Gentiles come in" and that has not happened yet.  This Pharisee died at the time of Christ, so when is he going to be saved? 

Please show me your answer with scripture.

Joe 

 

[Wesley L]

Hello @joe,

I think I have already shared the verses which states that not everyone is saved.
I put them below again. There are many more, but I don't think adding more scripture will help at this moment.

Believing that all are saved is called "universalism". Which is unbiblical. https://www.gotquestions.org/universalism.html
But how come you can find scripture that seemingly supports universalism? Let's go to your points and scriptures one by one.

Quote:"How can you say that God did not create evil when scripture plainly says that He creates evil and that He has given mankind an experience of evil?   How would scripture have to say it for you to believe it?"

• Genesis 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Scripture doesn't plainly say God created evil. God is holy. If you say God created evil. Then you don't understand what holy truly means.
God created everything and it was very good, according to God Himself. No sin has been committed yet on the 6th day.

When Adam and Eve ate from the fruit. They were tempted by the snake. They could not resist the temptation and chose to disobey God.
Did God cause Adam and Eve to sin?
Did God cause the snake to sin?
God created all things, but God did not cause them to sin. They chose to disobey God, which is sin.

God is light, when we choose to disobey God, we are moving away from the light, towards darkness.
Does light create darkness? No, darkness is not created by light. Darkness is the absense of light.
Evil is the absense of Holiness.

• 1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
• James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
• Exodus 15:11 “Who is like You among the gods, O Lord? Who is like You, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?
• Leviticus 20:26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

God created stones. God gave man free will.
With stones, man can do good things, making tools for crafting.
With stones, man can do evil things. Making weapons for killing and robbing.
But God did not tempt man to do evil. (James 1:13)
Even the stones are innocent. It is man disobeying God which is evil, turning away from God.

Quote: "Also, you keep saying that not everyone is saved.  Christ is not trying to save everyone at this time.  He is ONLY saving the Elect whom He will use in the final age to help bring in the full harvest of mankind.  You are only seeing what Christ is doing now.  Matt 7:22-23 that you mentioned only shows fallen away believers being rejected by Christ.  But His rejection is not final.  Why do you think it is? "

• Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So here, we have at least two persons in hell forever. The beast and the false prophet.

• Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Who else is Jesus talking about here? Only the beast and the false prophet? Certainly not.

• Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
• Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
• Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
• Revelation 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
• Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Many will end up in darkness, absense of light. The place called hell is the place without the glory of God, without the light of God.

Quote:" Lam 3:22  The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; Christ's work of saving mankind does not end until the last person is saved and then God will be "all in all""

• Lamentations 3:22 King James Version It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

This verse is saying that the mercy of God is forever. His love never ceases. But where does it say that God will save all mankind?
We receive His mercy through faith in Jesus Christ. Who never had faith in Jesus Christ, willingly rejected His mercy.

• John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
• Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Quote: "God can't be "all in all" if most of mankind is still lost."
I don't think "all in all" is explained the way you believe it does. But I have to do some study before I can say anything about it. Maybe others can reply on that.

Quote:" So when does the "fullness of the Gentiles" occur?  When do the Jews receive salvation?  It certainly cannot happen in this present age.  2000 years has already gone by and the "chosen" Gentiles are still being saved plus most Jews still reject Christ.  
In our days, many Jews, Greek, Asian, European, American, African, Australian, Middle Eastern are saved through faith in Jesus Christ, the narrow path.
But the majority of people are denying Jesus Christ, the wide path. Not only most Jews deny Christ, most PEOPLE deny Christ. There aren't many that are truly believing in Jesus Christ.

• John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
• Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Nearing the end times, the Jewish nation will see a revival of believers. While for the other nations, many will turn away from the truth.
 

Quote: "Here is what Christ said to one of the Pharisees who crucified Him: Matt 21:31  Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.  With Christ, our salvation is certain since it is 100% His work, only the timing of it is varied.  So when does Christ save this Pharisee that He spoke to?  His salvation has to come after the "fullness of the Gentiles come in" and that has not happened yet.  This Pharisee died at the time of Christ, so when is he going to be saved? "

• Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

• Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

• John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Our salvation is indeed 100% certain, AFTER we have put our faith in Jesus Christ. In true faith.
But whoever denies Jesus, is condemned already, because of the wages of sin.

The sentence "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do" does NOT mean that all will go to heaven.  Like: It will be easier for an elephant to climb a tree than for you to climb this tree. Jesus talked this way to show how hardened the heart was of the Pharisee.

• Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Salvation can only be received through faith in Jesus Christ. True faith in humility.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Wesley L

[Deadworm]

On 8/10/2020 at 5:58 PM, WowLookaDuck said:

God is sovereign. Why is it wrong to blame him for things that happen in our lives? 

I would rephrase your question this way:  Is it right to expect God to operate in our world in a way that is consistent with His revealed nature?  The Bible teaches that at creation God brought order out of chaos.  But it never says that God controls the forces of chaos.  God allows the universe to operate by its own fixed laws and that often puts us in harms way from accidents or from being at the wrong place at the wrong time.  In other words, God does not eliminate the element of chance:  "All are victims of time and chance (Ecclesiastes 9:11).  Given this teaching, I know many Christians who reject the doctrine of the interventionist God.   But this ploy rejects biblical revelation.  So the real question is this: how can we understand effective petitionary prayer in the light of the fact that God does not micro-manage the laws of the universe.  Does divine healing somehow operate within unknown hidden laws of consciousness of which we are oblivious?

Here is a recent case that brings this issue close to home.  A few months ago, I talked to Pastor Andy about his new job as a youth pastor.  Andy recently led his youth group (20 people) on a retreat by the Columbia River.  The group waded into the water on a sand bar, but the river did not slope gradually and the group found themselves plummeted into the swift current.  Most of the group were rescued.  But Andy forgot about his own wellbeing and plunged in in an ill-fated effort to rescue an 11-year-old boy from the group.   Both drowned!  Why didn't God intervene and allow both to be rescued?  That's a hard question to answer--and anger directed at God is understandably very  human  in this case.  What is highly objectionable is the rationalization that it was just time for God to take Andy and the young boy home!   Yes, Andy should have checked out the sand bar to see if it quickly led to a deep drop-off.  Andy and the boy died for the same reason I might die on my daily long walks, if I don't check for cars when I cross streets, regardless of what God's calling is on my life. 

[WowLookaDuck]

9 hours ago, Deadworm said:

I would rephrase your question this way:  Is it right to expect God to operate in our world in a way that is consistent with His revealed nature?  The Bible teaches that at creation God brought order out of chaos.  But it never says that God controls the forces of chaos.  God allows the universe to operate by its own fixed laws and that often puts us in harms way from accidents or from being at the wrong place at the wrong time.  In other words, God does not eliminate the element of chance:  "All are victims of time and chance (Ecclesiastes 9:11).  Given this teaching, I know many Christians who reject the doctrine of the interventionist God.   But this ploy rejects biblical revelation.  So the real question is this: how can we understand effective petitionary prayer in the light of the fact that God does not micro-manage the laws of the universe.  Does divine healing somehow operate within unknown hidden laws of consciousness of which we are oblivious?

Here is a recent case that brings this issue close to home.  A few months ago, I talked to Pastor Andy about his new job as a youth pastor.  Andy recently led his youth group (20 people) on a retreat by the Columbia River.  The group waded into the water on a sand bar, but the river did not slope gradually and the group found themselves plummeted into the swift current.  Most of the group were rescued.  But Andy forgot about his own wellbeing and plunged in in an ill-fated effort to rescue an 11-year-old boy from the group.   Both drowned!  Why didn't God intervene and allow both to be rescued?  That's a hard question to answer--and anger directed at God is understandably very  human  in this case.  What is highly objectionable is the rationalization that it was just time for God to take Andy and the young boy home!   Yes, Andy should have checked out the sand bar to see if it quickly led to a deep drop-off.  Andy and the boy died for the same reason I might die on my daily long walks, if I don't check for cars when I cross streets, regardless of what God's calling is on my life. 

"Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will."

-Matthew 10:29

[Deadworm]

2 minutes ago, WowLookaDuck said:

"Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will."

-Matthew 10:29

You fail to distinguish between God's active will and His permissive will.  Only this distinction permits a reconciliation with the biblical view that we are all victims of chance.

[Faithwilldo]

23 hours ago, Wesley L said:

Hello @joe,

I think I have already shared the verses which states that not everyone is saved.
I put them below again. There are many more, but I don't think adding more scripture will help at this moment.

Believing that all are saved is called "universalism". Which is unbiblical. https://www.gotquestions.org/universalism.html
But how come you can find scripture that seemingly supports universalism? Let's go to your points and scriptures one by one.

Quote:"How can you say that God did not create evil when scripture plainly says that He creates evil and that He has given mankind an experience of evil?   How would scripture have to say it for you to believe it?"

• Genesis 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Scripture doesn't plainly say God created evil. God is holy. If you say God created evil. Then you don't understand what holy truly means.
God created everything and it was very good, according to God Himself. No sin has been committed yet on the 6th day.

When Adam and Eve ate from the fruit. They were tempted by the snake. They could not resist the temptation and chose to disobey God.
Did God cause Adam and Eve to sin?
Did God cause the snake to sin?
God created all things, but God did not cause them to sin. They chose to disobey God, which is sin.

God is light, when we choose to disobey God, we are moving away from the light, towards darkness.
Does light create darkness? No, darkness is not created by light. Darkness is the absense of light.
Evil is the absense of Holiness.

• 1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
• James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
• Exodus 15:11 “Who is like You among the gods, O Lord? Who is like You, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?
• Leviticus 20:26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

God created stones. God gave man free will.
With stones, man can do good things, making tools for crafting.
With stones, man can do evil things. Making weapons for killing and robbing.
But God did not tempt man to do evil. (James 1:13)
Even the stones are innocent. It is man disobeying God which is evil, turning away from God.

Quote: "Also, you keep saying that not everyone is saved.  Christ is not trying to save everyone at this time.  He is ONLY saving the Elect whom He will use in the final age to help bring in the full harvest of mankind.  You are only seeing what Christ is doing now.  Matt 7:22-23 that you mentioned only shows fallen away believers being rejected by Christ.  But His rejection is not final.  Why do you think it is? "

• Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So here, we have at least two persons in hell forever. The beast and the false prophet.

• Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Who else is Jesus talking about here? Only the beast and the false prophet? Certainly not.

• Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
• Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
• Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
• Revelation 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
• Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Many will end up in darkness, absense of light. The place called hell is the place without the glory of God, without the light of God.

Quote:" Lam 3:22  The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; Christ's work of saving mankind does not end until the last person is saved and then God will be "all in all""

• Lamentations 3:22 King James Version It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

This verse is saying that the mercy of God is forever. His love never ceases. But where does it say that God will save all mankind?
We receive His mercy through faith in Jesus Christ. Who never had faith in Jesus Christ, willingly rejected His mercy.

• John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
• Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Quote: "God can't be "all in all" if most of mankind is still lost."
I don't think "all in all" is explained the way you believe it does. But I have to do some study before I can say anything about it. Maybe others can reply on that.

Quote:" So when does the "fullness of the Gentiles" occur?  When do the Jews receive salvation?  It certainly cannot happen in this present age.  2000 years has already gone by and the "chosen" Gentiles are still being saved plus most Jews still reject Christ.  
In our days, many Jews, Greek, Asian, European, American, African, Australian, Middle Eastern are saved through faith in Jesus Christ, the narrow path.
But the majority of people are denying Jesus Christ, the wide path. Not only most Jews deny Christ, most PEOPLE deny Christ. There aren't many that are truly believing in Jesus Christ.

• John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
• Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Nearing the end times, the Jewish nation will see a revival of believers. While for the other nations, many will turn away from the truth.
 

Quote: "Here is what Christ said to one of the Pharisees who crucified Him: Matt 21:31  Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.  With Christ, our salvation is certain since it is 100% His work, only the timing of it is varied.  So when does Christ save this Pharisee that He spoke to?  His salvation has to come after the "fullness of the Gentiles come in" and that has not happened yet.  This Pharisee died at the time of Christ, so when is he going to be saved? "

• Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

• Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

• John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Our salvation is indeed 100% certain, AFTER we have put our faith in Jesus Christ. In true faith.
But whoever denies Jesus, is condemned already, because of the wages of sin.

The sentence "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do" does NOT mean that all will go to heaven.  Like: It will be easier for an elephant to climb a tree than for you to climb this tree. Jesus talked this way to show how hardened the heart was of the Pharisee.

• Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Salvation can only be received through faith in Jesus Christ. True faith in humility.

You said:

I think I have already shared the verses which states that not everyone is saved.

You have not posted any verses that say Christ will not save everyone because there are no such verses.  Your quoted verses do not say Christ is going to fail to save all mankind as you believe. 

Here is my response to each of them:

1).  Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet are "symbols" just like the entire book of Revelation contains.  They are not real people but represent a specific group of people that have existed since the time of Paul.   

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The book of Revelation communicates its message by using  physical symbols that represent spiritual truths.  To understand these symbols, one must look elsewhere in scripture for those symbols.

1Cor 2:13  These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Also, the Greek word "aion" in that verse is mistranslated.  It does not mean "for ever and ever".  It means "age". Here is the proper translation of that verse:

Rev 20:10   And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the age of ages (the final age).

By the end of the final age, this verse will be testified to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2).  Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The Lake of Fire is another symbol with a spiritual meaning.  The Lake of Fire means God's righteousness judgment.  It is not a literal place nor does it have literal fire.  Here is what God's fire is and does:

1Cor 3:13-15  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Mankind is saved by God's "fire", not tortured for eternity.  The loss they receive is not being saved first along with the First Fruits and not helping Christ bring in the full harvest of mankind (ruling and reigning with Christ).

Once Christ's "rule and reign" comes to an end in the final age, God is "all in all" because everyone is saved and is in the Kingdom of Heaven.

1 Cor 15:20-28  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 

Your beliefs say that God is NOT "all in all" because He is tormenting in literal fire most of mankind.  That is not the God of scripture who never fails at anything.  

1 John 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 Cor 13:8  Love never fails;

3).  Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

These people are fallen away Christians who remain "lawless".  This means that they are still under law and not under grace.  Since they are under law, they must experience the same "destruction" of their carnal nature that the Elect experienced and the law demands.  For their benefit, they are sent off to be judged in the Lake of Fire.  There they will suffer loss but they will be saved by "fire".  Judgment is NOT "for ever and ever" but lasts for only an age of time.  The Elect are judged in this present age and like those in the Lake of Fire, their judgment comes to an end when the fire has burned away their spiritual impurities. 

4).  Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.     

This verse only repeats that Christ will judge the lost in the "Lake of Fire".  It is an not eternal judgment nor is it in literal fire.  Christ's judgment is:

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Psa 33:5  He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Jer 4:2  And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Jer 9:24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD.

Amos 5:24  But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

Prov 28:5  Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

God's judgment fills the earth with God's "goodness" and is not like man's judgment.  God's judgment will "bless" the nations and make them righteous.   It burns away our spiritual impurities.

5).  Revelation 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

As I have stated, we all must be judged.  

Rom 14:10  But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Mark 9:49  For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Judgment starts with the chosen Elect of this age:

1Peter 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

At the time when the Elect are judged, they are not any better than the lost.  They are just as carnal and full of self-righteousness.  From their judgment, these spiritual impurities are burned away.

This verse you quoted (like the others) is only speaking of judgment.  You are inferring that their judgment is eternal which it is not.  Judgment is for the good and loving purpose of purifying them to make them worthy of salvation.  Once the judgment has achieved that goal, then their judgment ends (just like it did for each of the Elect).  At that time, this calls goes out to them:

Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Why would the Spirit and the Bride (the Elect) say to come and drink of the water of life if they will never be saved or allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven as you believe?  This call by God goes out when it is time for them (those who have just been judged) to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  God will then be "all in all".

5).   Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Like Rev 20:10, The Greek word "aion" is mistranslated.  However, here in this verse, the adjective form (aionios) of "aion" is used.  It means for a time period of an age and should be translated as "age-enduring":

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.

The Elect who have already had the "ends of the ages" come upon them, will have life in the Kingdom of Heaven during this final age.  In contrast to them are the lost who will not have life in the final age but will finally and mercifully be judged.

1Cor 10:11  Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Why does God's Word say that the Elect have had the "ends of the ages" come upon them?  The answer is because salvation for mankind (everyone but the First Fruits, the early and best portion of God's harvest) comes at the end of the final age (the end of the harvest season).  Only then will God be "all in all" and this verse will be proven to be true:

Act 2:17  And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

The "last days" (or as you say "end times") is referring to the time when a person is judged and purified.  At that time (the time of the Day of the Lord) they will receive the Holy Spirit and be saved.  The Elect's "last days" happen now but the lost's "last days" do not occur until the end of the final age.  Your belief says that God will not pour out His Spirit on "all flesh".  Who is right, you or God's word?  

The verses you quoted do not address whether Christ will save all mankind.  They are mostly speaking about judgment which you do not seem to understand.  

Here are the verses you should have quoted that specifically teach on who will be saved:

Rev 5:13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the age of the ages.

Who could this leave out?

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Why do you believe this verse says until the restitution of "some" things"?

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Why do you believe this verse says only "some" men will be saved?

Rom 5:18-19  so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.  For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous. 

Why do you believe that by the obedience of the One, only "some of the many" will be constituted righteous?

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Why do you believe that "not" every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord?  Is it because you believe they will be cursing Christ while they are being tormented in the fires of "hell" for no loving or redeeming purpose? 

2Pet 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Why do you believe that Christ will be denied His will to not have anyone perish (death:  the true penalty of sin), especially in light of this verse I quoted below?

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 

As for your other comments in your last post, I will not respond to them because your arguments do not make sense nor do they change the clear meaning of the verses.  

Joe

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[WowLookaDuck]

By arguing that everyone is saved and that unbelievers go into the "lake of fire" for some finite amount of time, you're basically arguing for purgatory, right? 

[Wesley L]

15 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

1).  Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet are "symbols" just like the entire book of Revelation contains.  They are not real people but represent a specific group of people that have existed since the time of Paul.   

A specific group of people = REAL PEOPLE.
Even in your wrongful conclusion, the group of people that have existed since Paul, they are not saved. Thus not all people are saved.

In God's words there can't be any contradiction.
In your words there are. Are you speaking things in truth and in spirit?
The way you use scripture, you can make the bible saying all kinds of things out of context. (I am willing to elaborate, if you want to)

When you say that all mankind will be saved, you don't understand the true reason and weight of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
Not understanding when Jesus says:"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.".

The truth is not revealed by our own intellect trying to uncover the mysteries of God's words. But the truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit Who dwells in each born again Christian. So that I can't boast of my understanding of His words, all to His glory. I pray that each one of us has the Holy Spirit and understand God's words according to His will.

P.S.

According to your beliefs, it doesn't matter what I belief. I may get punishment for a "wrongful" belief but end up in heaven anyway.
According to your beliefs, you are just preventing people to get severe punishment, but in the end all end up in heaven anyway. There is no urgency to belief or to share the gospel. Because any temporary punishment is truly nothing compared to afterwards living with god in eternity.

But according to God's words, christians are to share the gospel of salvation. So that by hearing His words, one can believe and be saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ. So that one won't be lost forever. There is only one way, the choice is to be made within our lives on earth. By sin, we have already made the choice for hell. And only through faith in Jesus Christ we can turn back to God and be seen as righteous in His eyes.

Is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ sufficient to save ALL mankind times a million? Certainly.
But will all mankind be saved? Certainly not. Unfortunately many will choose to deny Christ forever.

Your forum name is "faith will do"... which faith will do what?
That name could even be  "any faith will do". 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Wesley L
grammar, PS

[Faithwilldo]

10 hours ago, WowLookaDuck said:

By arguing that everyone is saved and that unbelievers go into the "lake of fire" for some finite amount of time, you're basically arguing for purgatory, right? 

Absolutely not.  The Lake of Fire is only a spiritual symbol and is not like anything that is commonly taught.  Hell according to scripture is a state of death and can be translated as the "unseen place".  The Lake of Fire is a symbol for God's righteous judgment.  If you read Revelation chapter 21, it will show that those who were cast into God's judgment are actually on the New Earth and exist outside the New Jerusalem.   Of course, New Jerusalem and the New Earth are also symbols.  The New Jerusalem is the Kingdom of Heaven which represents the Christ and His First Fruits of His harvest.  The details of the building are also symbols.  But as you may be able to see, the lost are not in a place of literal fire and brimstone.   

Christ and the Elect (New Jerusalem) descend down from heaven and are placed into the midst of the lost for these reasons:

Eph 2:7  that he might display in the coming ages the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.

The Elect are displayed to the lost who are being judged (Lake of Fire) to show "the surpassing riches of His grace".  

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.  

This verse is referring to the Old Testament saints (including John the Baptist and the thief on the cross) who were justified by faith but were not sanctified by the truth.  Because of this lack of knowledge, they have not been made perfect yet and are not in the Kingdom of Heaven.  However, the Elect will see to it that they receive the knowledge of the truth and are made perfect.  This happens by God's judgment (Lake of Fire).  

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Ruling and reigning with Christ is for the purpose of judging and saving the lost.  That is what the symbol of a "thousand years" represents.  The Elect lived through their "thousand years" after they were saved when Christ poured out the latter rain of His Spirit on them.  This happened to them in this present age.  Once the Elect reach full spiritual maturity, they will produce the spiritual fruit God requires of them.  This must likewise happen to the lost who are in the "Lake of Fire".  

God's judgment (Lake of Fire) teaches mankind God's righteousness and purifies away our spiritual impurities.  No one can produce spiritual fruit and be saved unless they are judged.  

Once those who are experiencing God's judgment have been purified, this call will go out to them by God and the Elect:

Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This is "typed" for us by the Feast of Tabernacles.  That is the feast that celebrates the end of the harvest season.  It is the time that God will bring in the full harvest of mankind. 

Christ also typed this for us in this verse:

John 7:37-38  In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

This call goes out to the lost in the "Lake of Fire" at the end of the final age.  

There is no Hell or Purgatory as is commonly taught.

Joe