Do Seals and Trumpets Work Together?

[Uriah]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

The Third Seal: Famine

Then I looked and saw a black horse, and its rider held in his hand a pair of scales. And I heard what sounded like a voice from among the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine.”

The First Trumpet: 

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

Joel 1:

 

Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD; ...The field is ruined;...For the grain is destroyed,

for fire has consumed the open pastures and flames have scorched all the trees of the field.

The Third Trumpet:

Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters.

Joel 1:

Even the beasts of the field pant for You, for the streams of water have dried up, and fire has consumed the open pastures  

The Fourth Seal: Death

Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

The Fourth Trumpet:

Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

Joel 2:

The sun and moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness. (Before the DOTL)

The Fifth Trumpet:

Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet....And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth...And the locusts looked like horses prepared for battle...and the sound of their wings was like the roar of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.

Joel 2:

Their appearance is like that of horses, and they gallop like swift steeds. With a sound like that of chariots they bound over the mountaintops, (Before the DOTL)

The Fifth Seal: The Martyrs

The Sixth Seal: Terror

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

The Seventh Trumpet:

 

The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead.....and to destroy those who destroy the earth.

Good job "D"

A great look at the harmony of prophecy in scripture. I did a similar post one time about the trumpets and seals. It seems to me there is a connection to other prophecies in the OT. Apparently other prophets saw some of the same visions of the future as well. Of course none as detailed as Revelation, but that only makes it so that God's people can see how there is harmony from OT to NT  and the Jewish people can understand that we are a branch from the root. The Messiah binds them together in the graft.

[RonaldBruno]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Lion king of the wild animals, eagle of the birds, ox of domestic animals, and man.  Gods creations.  Nice.  

Seems you have it all down.  How wise.  

No, I was  being facetious, using my imagination as someone would who does not take that literally. BUT I do take this literally: " ...And in the midst of the throne and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. the first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a ox, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within ... "Rev. 4:6-8

Edited August 19, 2020 by RonaldBruno
grammar

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, RonaldBruno said:

No, I was  being facetious, using my imagination as someone would who does not take that literally. BUT I do take this literally: " ...And in the midst of the throne and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. the first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a ox, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within ... "Rev. 4:6-8

Ezekiel opens with the same living creatures, described as each having all four faces. Interesting that John was showed just one different face on each. Some see the symbolism as Lion = strength, Ox = sacrifice, Man = dominion, Eagle = swiftness. These four creatures announce the four horsemen in order, Conquest, Conflict, Commodities, Carnage. Rev 6:1-8. The number four speaks of foundation. 

Eze 1:4-11  And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.  (5)  Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.  (6)  And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.  (7)  And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.  (8)  And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.  (9)  Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.  (10)  As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.  (11)  Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 8:1 And when He had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Not exactly. "And I saw..." does not tell us one follows from the other. That's a post hoc fallacy i.e., after this, therefore resulting from it: used to indicate that a causal relationship has erroneously been assumed from a merely sequential one." From this we don't even have an order of events that demands the trumps follow the seals.

We can't rely on chapter and verse either as those divisions are merely for reference and do not appear in the source text.

If John had recorded 'Then...' in 8:2 as he did in 8:3 and in every instance where the order of the sounding of the trumpets is described in the 8th chapter, then yes the trumps would follow the 7th seal. That isn't the case. The trumps are sounded in order, they begin to sound at a time we have to determine from other evidence.

[RonaldBruno]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Ezekiel opens with the same living creatures, described as each having all four faces. Interesting that John was showed just one different face on each. Some see the symbolism as Lion = strength, Ox = sacrifice, Man = dominion, Eagle = swiftness. These four creatures announce the four horsemen in order, Conquest, Conflict, Commodities, Carnage. Rev 6:1-8. The number four speaks of foundation. 

Eze 1:4-11  And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.  (5)  Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.  (6)  And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.  (7)  And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.  (8)  And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.  (9)  Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.  (10)  As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.  (11)  Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

Cherubum and Seraphim may have symbolic meaning as well, but they are living beings, angels with specific duties and abilities who look like their description. They aren't just attributes of God, since it says they are living beings.

Scripture often has both literal and symbolic meanings. Symbolism is usually explained in scripture. You can't discard the literal meaning though.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not exactly. "And I saw..." does not tell us one follows from the other. That's a post hoc fallacy i.e., after this, therefore resulting from it: used to indicate that a causal relationship has erroneously been assumed from a merely sequential one." From this we don't even have an order of events that demands the trumps follow the seals.

We can't rely on chapter and verse either as those divisions are merely for reference and do not appear in the source text.

If John had recorded 'Then...' in 8:2 as he did in 8:3 and in every instance where the order of the sounding of the trumpets is described in the 8th chapter, then yes the trumps would follow the 7th seal. That isn't the case. The trumps are sounded in order, they begin to sound at a time we have to determine from other evidence.

I see what you are saying, but it wasn't the "And i saw" 

 it is the

And when He had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

It would seem they don't even have the trumpets in their possession until the seventh seal is opened.    That is where I get the order of events.  I believe the seals are knowledge of events and not necessarily events in the order given.  It isn't about the divisions man made, its about the words God used.  Numbers or no, it still directly follows.   

Edited August 19, 2020 by DeighAnn
quote marks

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

Cherubum and Seraphim may have symbolic meaning as well, but they are living beings, angels with specific duties and abilities who look like their description. They aren't just attributes of God, since it says they are living beings.

Scripture often has both literal and symbolic meanings. Symbolism is usually explained in scripture. You can't discard the literal meaning though.

Yes, first mention of Cherubims is post-fall, guarding Eden. Their likenesses adorn the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple described in Ezekiel.  

Gen 3:24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Eze 41:17-20  To that above the door, even unto the inner house, and without, and by all the wall round about within and without, by measure.  (18)  And it was made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree was between a cherub and a cherub; and every cherub had two faces;  (19)  So that the face of a man was toward the palm tree on the one side, and the face of a young lion toward the palm tree on the other side: it was made through all the house round about.  (20)  From the ground unto above the door were cherubims and palm trees made, and on the wall of the temple.
 

Albert Barnes has this to say in his Notes on the Bible:

"The cherubim are intelligent beings. This is indicated by their form, movement, and conduct. In their visible appearance the human form predominates: “They had the likeness of a man” Eze_1:5. The human face is in front, and has therefore the principal place. The “hands of a man” determine the erect posture, and therefore the human form of the body. The parts of other animal forms are only accessory, and serve to mark the possession of qualities which are not prominent in man. The lion indicates the active and destructive powers; the ox, the patient and productive; the eagle denotes rapid motion, with which the wings coincide, and quick sight with which the many eyes accord; and the man signifies reason, which rationalizes all these otherwise physical qualities."

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I see what you are saying, but it wasn't the "And i saw" 

 it is the

And when He had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

  

Yes. I used to think the same. Then there is this:

The Sixth Seal: Terror

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

The Seventh Trumpet:

The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead.....and to destroy those who destroy the earth.

It's possible that the wrath of God comes at the 6th seal, then some time later it also comes at the 7th trumpet, but it's improbable.

 

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I believe the seals are knowledge of events and not necessarily events in the order given.   

I agree more or less. I see the seals as conditions that exist except for the 6th and seventh, those are events and conditions. And I don't see where they would begin specifically except for the first seal; which I'm convinced kicks off to start the final days of the government of man. 

Joel tells us the first trumpet has sounded when the meat and drink offering is cut off. So the first trump and its result happens at least by the A of D and most probably before, and that is before the sign of the coming of the Son of Man at the 6th seal.

 

Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests are in mourning, those who minister before the LORD. The field is ruined; the land mourns. For the grain is destroyed, the new wine is dried up, and the oil fails. Be dismayed, O farmers, wail, O vinedressers, over the wheat and barley, because the harvest of the field has perished. The grapevine is dried up, and the fig tree is withered; the pomegranate, palm, and apple—all the trees of the orchard—are withered. - Joel 1

Alas for the day! For the Day of the LORD is near, and it will come as destruction from the Almighty. Has not the food been cut off before our very eyes—joy and gladness from the house of our God? - Joel 1

To You, O LORD, I call, for fire has consumed the open pastures and flames have scorched all the trees of the field. - Joel 1

The Day of the Lord is NEAR here and all the grass is gone and the trees damaged. The harvest of wheat and barley is gone. These food grains are grasses. The pastures are gone which is obviously grass.

"Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass." - Rev 8:7

Joel says fire has burned the pastures and the trees and the food grains are destroyed, just what the 1st trump describes, before the DOTL which is at the 6th seal. I think the conclusion the first trump occurs before the midpoint is pretty solid. 

Joel says:

"Blow the ram’s horn in Zion; sound the alarm on My holy mountain! Let all who dwell in the land tremble, for the Day of the LORD is coming; indeed, it is near—" - Joel 2

Joel says of the army:

"Their appearance is like that of horses, and they gallop like swift steeds. With a sound like that of chariots..." - Joel 2

The 5th trumpet:

"And the locusts looked like horses prepared for battle, with something like crowns of gold on their heads, and faces like the faces of men. They had hair like that of women, and teeth like those of lions. They also had thoraxes like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the roar of many horses and chariots rushing into battle." - Rev 9

The context of both is the end of the age and Joel places the 5th trump before the Day of the Lord, which again is at the 6th seal.

A thought just occurred to me that Joel could be describing the 6th trumpet army also. I'll have to look into that. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Yes. I used to think the same. Then there is this:

The Sixth Seal: Terror

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Isn't it possible that "the great day of Their wrath" is speaking of a general period of time and not something that necessarily takes place on that specific day?  Something that would read like "the great time of Their wrath"?

[Diaste]

9 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Isn't it possible that "the great day of Their wrath" is speaking of a general period of time and not something that necessarily takes place on that specific day?  Something that would read like "the great time of Their wrath"?

Yes, that's how I read it as well. It's a time period that begins and ends with an unspecified duration. 

But it does begin at some moment in time where the condition of wrath did not exist one moment, then does exist and runs the course, however long that may be.