Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon is inconsistent with a post-tribulation rapture

[iamlamad]

8 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

Iamlamd,

I agree with what you said about the pre-tribulation theory.    I also pointed out, in the post that started this thread, that the post-tribulation theory has a problem because Jesus coming at the Battle of Armageddon negates the idea that nobody will know the day nor hour.  This is exactly why I have had to reject the idea that Jesus comes at the Battle of Armageddon.  There is just to much scriptural evidence that He comes at the end of the Great Tribulation and every pre-tribulation argument I have seen has fatal flaws.

Again, please read my post where I outline the events of the last days that fulfills 1 Thessalonians 5:1 - 4.  Then tell me how a pre-tribulation theory can work.  In other words, why will people be saying that there is peace.  I would like to understand how there will be peace in either of the following two situations:

• Right before the pre-tribulation rapture with all the trouble that is occurring and will continue to occur with the rise of China trying to battle the United States as a superpower, COVID-19, the George Floyd protests, the California forest fires and whatever it is that is coming next. 
• Right before the Battle of Armageddon when armies of the world, including a 200 Million person army from the king of the east, are gathering to fight the battle to end the world.

 

People are thinking and saying peace and safely RIGHT NOW. The US is not at war. Most of the world is not at war. I feel perfectly safe, even from Covid 19. 
The peace and safetly are to be at the moment of the rapture: it will start on a day just like today, when SUDDENLY Christ comes and the trumpet sounds, and the dead in Christ fly up out of their graves. 

Then Paul shows us two different groups of people that get two different results in the very next moment after the dead have risen:
1. This in Christ get "salvation:" they get caught up and get to "live together with Him."
2. Those NOT in Christ will be left behind and will suffer "sudden destruction."

Just what is this "sudden destruction? Matthew 27 says, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..." This shows me a precedent: that when God raises the dead, it is going to cause an earthquake. Note, also an earthquake when the Two Witnesses are raised.

What will cause this earthquake? It is written that the dead turn back into "dust." After a time, that "dust" could be scattered - especially over a long time. At the resurrection, in one instant of time, God will gather all that dust that once formed the dead in Christ, and reform each body. Moving that "dust" is what will cause this earthquake. In other words, Paul's sudden destruction is a sudden destruction, worldwide earthquake. (the dead in Christ are found the world around.)

Next, Paul tells us that this great earthquake is the start of the Day of the Lord and the start of Wrath (1 thes. 5)

Where then, in Revelation, do we find the first earthquake at the very same time as the start of WRATH? That would be at the 6th seal. Where does John start the 70th week? That would be at the 7th seal. Therefore, the rapture is most certainly PREtrib. 

Where in Revelation did John see the raptured church in heaven? As the great crowd, too large to number, seen in chapter 7, right after the 6th seal, by the way. 

Which is most likely: people saying peace and safety today, or after 7 trumpet judgments, then 7 bowl judgments? I think at the end of the week, people are going to be scared out of their wits. In my mind peace and safety is NOW, before the Day of the Lord and the 70th week begin. 

[BeauJangles]

On 8/22/2020 at 12:51 PM, John n Claudia said:

A couple months ago, I was encouraged to reexamine my beliefs and question my every assumption about what would happen during the last few years before Jesus returns.

No one can truly ascertain this. Not one theologian I've read their publications, listened to, and was an attendant at their lectures, or personal studies have been able to make this call in particular. 

On 8/22/2020 at 12:51 PM, John n Claudia said:

Jesus returning again to at Armageddon in order to defeat the armies waiting for him does not have to be a surprise because the surprise already occurred years earlier.

What surprise is this?

On 8/22/2020 at 12:51 PM, John n Claudia said:

I asked a dozen people, most of whom know nothing about the Bible, what will happen at Armageddon.

Why would anyone care about unknowledgeable persons who know nothing pertaining to scriptures?  

On 8/22/2020 at 12:51 PM, John n Claudia said:

"Oh yeah, Jesus will return to beat up everybody."

That sounds rockin' good to me! 

On 8/22/2020 at 12:51 PM, John n Claudia said:

Since I have searched too much scripture not to believe in a post-tribulation rapture followed by the Wrath of God, I have no choice but to also reject Jesus returning to fight the Battle of Armageddon.  Has anyone else out there reached this same conclusion?

No. 

Wait a minute. No one can do too much searching of scriptures. That's all time first. 

[John n Claudia]

47 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

People are thinking and saying peace and safely RIGHT NOW. The US is not at war. Most of the world is not at war. I feel perfectly safe, even from Covid 19. 
The peace and safetly are to be at the moment of the rapture: it will start on a day just like today, when SUDDENLY Christ comes and the trumpet sounds, and the dead in Christ fly up out of their graves. 

 

iamlamad,

I am very happy that you personally have the peace of God and I pray that this continues for you.  However, there are riots taking place all over the United States.  A quick review of the news regarding Atlanta, Portland, Seattle, Chicago, New York and many other cities will very quickly show that the second seal has been opened and peace has been taken away from the world.  There may not be an active military war between the United States and another country, but there are many hot spots around the world, including Iran and China.  I think that you would be hard pressed to find even 5% of the population of the United States saying that they are feeling peaceful or that they are living in a period of safety, let alone the vast majority as 1 Thessalonians 5:3 indicates.

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Then Paul shows us two different groups of people that get two different results in the very next moment after the dead have risen:
1. This in Christ get "salvation:" they get caught up and get to "live together with Him."
2. Those NOT in Christ will be left behind and will suffer "sudden destruction."

Just what is this "sudden destruction? Matthew 27 says, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..." This shows me a precedent: that when God raises the dead, it is going to cause an earthquake. Note, also an earthquake when the Two Witnesses are raised.

This is exactly correct.  Now we need to ask ourselves when the two witnesses were raised.  Chapter 11 starts by saying that there are 42 months where the Gentiles will trample the Holy City.  These are the last 42 months of the Great Tribulation and Revelation 11:3 tells us the two witnesses testify throughout the entire 42 months.  This means that they are killed at the end of the great tribulation and Revelation 11:11 tells us that they are raised up and raptured 3.5 days later.  The sudden destruction occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, not 3.5 years before the Great Tribulation even starts.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

What will cause this earthquake? It is written that the dead turn back into "dust." After a time, that "dust" could be scattered - especially over a long time. At the resurrection, in one instant of time, God will gather all that dust that once formed the dead in Christ, and reform each body. Moving that "dust" is what will cause this earthquake. In other words, Paul's sudden destruction is a sudden destruction, worldwide earthquake. (the dead in Christ are found the world around.)

Next, Paul tells us that this great earthquake is the start of the Day of the Lord and the start of Wrath (1 thes. 5)

 

Again, you are very correct.  We are told that this earthquake occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation and from your previous comment, we see that this is also the time when the rapture occurs.  It seems like we are agreeing that the rapture occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Where then, in Revelation, do we find the first earthquake at the very same time as the start of WRATH? That would be at the 6th seal. Where does John start the 70th week? That would be at the 7th seal. Therefore, the rapture is most certainly PREtrib. 

Where in Revelation did John see the raptured church in heaven? As the great crowd, too large to number, seen in chapter 7, right after the 6th seal, by the way. 

Which is most likely: people saying peace and safety today, or after 7 trumpet judgments, then 7 bowl judgments? I think at the end of the week, people are going to be scared out of their wits. In my mind peace and safety is NOW, before the Day of the Lord and the 70th week begin. 

Once again you are very correct.  The first time we see an earthquake in the Book of Revelation is with the sixth seal and immediately after that, we see the Jews sealed and the church raptured and the start of the wrath of God.  This means that the rapture takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation, not seven years earlier.

I know from conversations with other people that a big cause for their confusion regarding the timing of the rapture is that they are confusing the Great Tribulation with the Wrath of God.  These are two different things and we can see this if we give the Great Tribulation the name it was first given in the Bible; the time of Jacob's trouble.  In other words, the Great Tribulation is the time period during which the Jews are being persecuted.  This cannot possibly also be the time of the Wrath of God because the Wrath of God is the time period during which God rescues His people (the Jews) in order to set up the Millennial Kingdom so they can rule for 1000 years.  God is punishing the enemies of the Jews during the Wrath of God, not the Jews themselves.  This is also why God seals the 144,000 Jews before rapturing the Church.  The Church will no longer be living on the earth, so they will not experience the Wrath of God.  The Jews however will be staying on the earth and therefore they need to be protected from all the carnage that will occur during this time.

 

 

[John n Claudia]

19 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

No one can truly ascertain this. Not one theologian I've read their publications, listened to, and was an attendant at their lectures, or personal studies have been able to make this call in particular. 

BeauJangles,

You are very correct that nobody can be 100% certain of what will happen.  However, this does not mean that we are to ignore the scriptures.  The Berean's were commended for their study and all Christians are called to study the scriptures so that they can know the Lord.  When I study, I always ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and every time I find any scripture that contradicts my current beliefs,  I examine everything I believe in order to find out where I misinterpreted scripture and what I need to change in order to make sure that i have a correct theology and picture of what will happen during the last days.

23 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

On 8/22/2020 at 2:51 PM, John n Claudia said:

Jesus returning again to at Armageddon in order to defeat the armies waiting for him does not have to be a surprise because the surprise already occurred years earlier.

What surprise is this?

The point of my post was to say that the post-tribulation theory has a problem if Jesus returns at the Battle of Armageddon, but the pre-tribulation theory does not.  The surprise in question here is the rapture of the Church.

 

25 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Why would anyone care about unknowledgeable persons who know nothing pertaining to scriptures?  

Because the Bible says that the unbelievers will be surprised when Jesus returns.  Therefore if I want to know when Jesus will NOT return, I simply need to ask them when they think He will return.

 

26 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

On 8/22/2020 at 2:51 PM, John n Claudia said:

Since I have searched too much scripture not to believe in a post-tribulation rapture followed by the Wrath of God, I have no choice but to also reject Jesus returning to fight the Battle of Armageddon.  Has anyone else out there reached this same conclusion?

No. 

Wait a minute. No one can do too much searching of scriptures. That's all time first. 

If you read what I actually wrote, I was using a colloquial expression to say that I personally believe in a post-tribulation rapture, not that I spend to much time in the scriptures.

[BeauJangles]

On 8/22/2020 at 12:51 PM, John n Claudia said:

"Oh yeah, Jesus will return to beat up everybody." 

This still sounds rockin' great to me! 

8 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

BeauJangles,

If you read what I actually wrote, I was using a colloquial expression to say that I personally believe in a post-tribulation rapture, not that I spend to much time in the scriptures.

Oh, okay. I see now. Well, it sorta could make sense, although I'm still trying to make some out of it. Being a dispensationalist however, it's out of my theological studies and time sequence factors in beliefs and understanding. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

 

iamlamad,

I am very happy that you personally have the peace of God and I pray that this continues for you.  However, there are riots taking place all over the United States.  A quick review of the news regarding Atlanta, Portland, Seattle, Chicago, New York and many other cities will very quickly show that the second seal has been opened and peace has been taken away from the world.  There may not be an active military war between the United States and another country, but there are many hot spots around the world, including Iran and China.  I think that you would be hard pressed to find even 5% of the population of the United States saying that they are feeling peaceful or that they are living in a period of safety, let alone the vast majority as 1 Thessalonians 5:3 indicates.

This is exactly correct.  Now we need to ask ourselves when the two witnesses were raised.  Chapter 11 starts by saying that there are 42 months where the Gentiles will trample the Holy City.  These are the last 42 months of the Great Tribulation and Revelation 11:3 tells us the two witnesses testify throughout the entire 42 months.  This means that they are killed at the end of the great tribulation and Revelation 11:11 tells us that they are raised up and raptured 3.5 days later.  The sudden destruction occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, not 3.5 years before the Great Tribulation even starts.

Again, you are very correct.  We are told that this earthquake occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation and from your previous comment, we see that this is also the time when the rapture occurs.  It seems like we are agreeing that the rapture occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation.

Once again you are very correct.  The first time we see an earthquake in the Book of Revelation is with the sixth seal and immediately after that, we see the Jews sealed and the church raptured and the start of the wrath of God.  This means that the rapture takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation, not seven years earlier.

I know from conversations with other people that a big cause for their confusion regarding the timing of the rapture is that they are confusing the Great Tribulation with the Wrath of God.  These are two different things and we can see this if we give the Great Tribulation the name it was first given in the Bible; the time of Jacob's trouble.  In other words, the Great Tribulation is the time period during which the Jews are being persecuted.  This cannot possibly also be the time of the Wrath of God because the Wrath of God is the time period during which God rescues His people (the Jews) in order to set up the Millennial Kingdom so they can rule for 1000 years.  God is punishing the enemies of the Jews during the Wrath of God, not the Jews themselves.  This is also why God seals the 144,000 Jews before rapturing the Church.  The Church will no longer be living on the earth, so they will not experience the Wrath of God.  The Jews however will be staying on the earth and therefore they need to be protected from all the carnage that will occur during this time.

 I think that you would be hard pressed to find even 5% of the population of the United States saying that they are feeling peaceful or that they are living in a period of safety  And somehow you think it will get better sometime after the Day of the Lord has started, then the 70th week? 

Let's look:

1st Bowl: all who have the mark get terrible sores.
2nd Bowl: all the sea becomes blood; all on the sea dies
3rd Bowl: All Fresh water turns to blood
4th bowl: Sun scorches with great heat
5th Bowl: Total darkness
7th Bowl: earthquake so terrible it shakes the mountains down into the earth; every city gone; probably most houses destroyed. All are homeless.

Then day after day of darkness and dread, wondering what comes next. 

Somehow I cannot fathom people thinking "peace and safety" at such a time. 

Perhaps a war comes before the Day starts. Perhaps this war ends in world peace ( I know: I am dreaming!) . Perhaps then, before the trumpets, there MIGHT be people thinking peace. I think the truth is, as time goes on, life on earth gets more and more difficult and scary! 

confusing the Great Tribulation with the Wrath of God.  These are two different things and we can see this if we give the Great Tribulation the name it was first given in the Bible; the time of Jacob's trouble.  In other words, the Great Tribulation is the time period during which the Jews are being persecuted.  This cannot possibly also be the time of the Wrath of God because the Wrath of God is the time period during which God rescues His people (the Jews) in order to set up the Millennial Kingdom

Could we PLEASE just follow the text rather than human reasoning or imagination? First, lets find where the days of GT are found in Revelation. What will CAUSE those days of Great Tribulation (GT)? John tells us, it will be the forced bowing to an imagine (think Nebuchadnezzar) and the force mark of the Beast: both with the threat of losing the head. AT the same time, an angel warning all in their own language that those who take the mark will be doomed to fire and brimstone forever. Therefore GREAT PRESSURE (i.e. GT) will be put upon people to run, hide, don't get caught!  AT the same time, no water to drink, and the only water fit to drink is in stores, where those running from the mark cannot go. These are the days of great tribulation (GT) Jesus spoke of. (Rev. 13) WHO will cause those days? It will be the Beast and False Prophet, who are written about in Rev. 13. the beast will not be revealed as the beast until the abomination in chapter 11.

WHERE IN REVELATION will we find the days of GT?  We find God giving His warning not to take the mark, in chapter 14, so the mark will not be enforced before then. Finally, we see the martyrs of the GT BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15.  We have located the days of GT as starting late in chapter 14. Someone might scream: "JESUS SAID AFTER THE ABOMINATION!" Chapter 14 would be after the abomination! (It is in chapter 11) The days of GT Jesus spoke of will begin later in chapter 14 and go to the end of chapter 16.

(Some people imagine the days of GT Jesus spoke of in the seals. They are miles off from truth. The beheaded only begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15!)WHERE THEN IS GOD'S WRATH?  We see His wrath starting with the DAY of His wrath, at the 6th seal, chapter 6. The trumpet judgments and vials come after this start of the Day of the Lord. I submit, BOTH the trumpets and vials are a part of God's wrath. In other words:
God's wrath goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16 in Revelation. And without a doubt Jesus will have wrath at Armageddon in chapter 19. 

In summary: The entire 70th week is God's wrath on earth: the 70th week begins with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial. ALL of this time is God's wrath.  The "trib" then, is exactly the same: people substitute "the trib" for "the 70th week."  The days of Great tribulation cannot start before the abomination, from Jesus own words. And from study, they are not going to start until the time of Rev. 13 when John saw the beast rising. From further study, those days of GT won't start until AFTER God warns people not to take the mark. Then, finally, the mark will be enforced, and people who refuse the mark will lose their head. 

WHO is God angry with?  I think ANYONE who will not acknowledge these events are the judgment of God and refuse to repent: Jew and Gentile alike.  Verse after verse tells us God's wrath will come up sinners. 

These are the last 42 months of the Great Tribulation and Revelation 11:3 tells us the two witnesses testify throughout the entire 42 months.  This means that they are killed at the end of the great tribulation and Revelation 11:11 tells us that they are raised up and raptured 3.5 days later.  Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant. (you just missed in one tiny point). Too many people try to force the Two Witnesses testimony into the first half of the week. Let's break this down:

Chapters 11 through 13 are MIDPOINT chapters, because each chapter includes a countdown from the midpoint to the end of the week. there are five countdowns.  Now, for the Two witnesses: WHEN do they begin? OF COURSE at or near the midpoint, but can we be more precise? Yes. They show up suddenly and begin their testimony just 3 1/2 days before the abomination that will divide the week (marked by the 7th trumpet.) They will then testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the END of the week. they are killed and lay dead those 3 1/2 days, and are raised at the 7th vial that ENDS the week. (I think that is when ALL the Old Testament saints rise.)   They are NOT killed at the end of the days of GT for those days are shortened and won't last the entire 42 months. They are killed just 3.5 days before the END OF THE WEEK, and are raised at the end of the week. 

Most people don't know or won't agree, but verses 11:4 to 11:13 are written as a parenthesis: John takes the readers on a SIDE JOURNEY down the path of the two witnesses  - OUTSIDE of His chronology - as a parenthesis. For Chronology:

11:1-2: 42 months of trampling begin (just days before the midpoint abomination)
11:3:  1260 days of testifying begin.  (just 3.5 days before the midpoint abomination)
11:14: Statement that the first two woes are history, and the 3rd is imminent.
11:15: the 7th trumpet sounds as the man of sin enters the temple and abominates. (new word)
12:6: 1260 days of fleeing: those in Judea begin to flee

The sudden destruction occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, not 3.5 years before the Great Tribulation even starts.  Let's follow the script, not imagination.

Paul ties the sudden destruction to the Day of the Lord (the start of) and to the start of God's WRATH. (I didn't associate WRATH with the rapture; Paul did!) I did not associate the Day of the Lord with the rapture: PAUL DID! Where in Revelation does wrath start? At the 6th seal in chapter 6. Where will the days of GT start? According to Jesus; Not until after the abomination that divides the week (the 7th trumpet marks that time). According to John, not until God gives His warning not to take the mark: chapter 14. 

Summary: Paul's "sudden destruction" comes at the rapture just a moment before wrath - at the 6th seal in chapter 6.
The days of GT Jesus spoke of won't even START until late in chapter 14.  

Note: the huge crowd, too large to number, shows us just after the 6th seal, NOT just after the days of GT, proving the rapture at the 6th seal. 
Note: we don't know WHERE in Revelation the days of GT will end. God will "shorten" those days by pouring out the vials of His wrath. The closest we could get would be SOMEWHERE in chapter 16 during or just after the vials.
Sorry, my friend, but I will stick with the TEXT. It is not a time to use imagination or even human reasoning. 

This means that the rapture takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation, not seven years earlier.  You are rearranging Revelation: your theory will be proven wrong. The days of GT Jesus spoke of won't even  START until late in chapter 14.  Prewrath puts the days of GT in the seals: are you prewrath? 

It seems like we are agreeing that the rapture occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation.  NO! Only prewrath places the rapture there. GOD places in just before wrath at the 6th seal. 

Note,  it is MYTH that the signs in the sun and moon in Matthew 24, AFTER the days of GT, are the same signs as seen at the 6th seal: this is where Van Kampen and Rosenthan - the inventors of Prewrath went wrong. These are two DIFFERENT signs, for two DIFFERENT purposes, and come over 7 years apart:
The signs at the 6th seal are the signs for the start of the DAY and of His wrath, and come BEFORE ANY PART OF THE 70th week.  How would anyone KNOW the moon appears red in color? they would have to SEE it. How would anyone know the sun appears black? They would SEE it. In other words, at this sign, both the sun and moon are VISIBLE. This sign is also shown in Joel 2. 

On the other hand, over 7 years later and AFTER the days of GT, more signs will appear: TOTAL DARKNESS! Not even the stars will be seen. No one will see the sun, and no one will see the moon. If so, it would not be total darkness. If you look up the Greek for "Darkened" it says, for planets, the absence of light: deprived of light. NO ONE can see the sun in total darkness. If the sun is putting out light, then the moon cannot be seen. This is the sign for the coming of Jesus Christ, where every eye can see Him. (He comes 7 years previous but hidden in a cloud) We find this sign in Joel 3, and in Matthew 24.  Note: Joel chapters 2 & 3 show us BOTH these signs, and show that they are separated in time. 

The TRUTH: the rapture takes place just before wrath, at the 6th seal, but days of GT will not come until over 3.5 years later. And the signs AFTER the GT will not be until 7 years later. 

NOte: it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath, for they happen SIMULTANEOUSLY! When Satan's wrath is at its peak, beheading millions, God pours out the vials of HIS wrath to shorten those days of GT. They would last the entire 42 months of authority of the Beast. The 42 months will continue, but they will not be days of GT: they will just be days of darkness and dread, wondering what terrible thing comes next. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

No, first as in the first of two resurrections in Revelation. 

The first takes place before the 1000 years and the last takes place after the 1000 years. 

Those who are resurrected in the first resurrection die during the tribulation. These who died in Christ are rewarded for overcoming the beast as Jesus promised and they shall reign with him as he promised. 

The rest of the dead live not again till the 1000 years is fulfilled. 

You are trying to place this resurrection in TIME. You cannot. It is not at one place in time: it is for the righteous for ALL TIME. Once again, Jesus was the firstfruits of this resurrection. 
Since there are only TWO resurrections by title, which one was Jesus the firstfruits of? 

WHAT? When the people are resurrected from death to life, as in the dead in Christ at Paul's rapture, they get resurrection bodies that will NEVER die. 

You are mistaken. 

[Shilohsfoal]

31 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are trying to place this resurrection in TIME. You cannot. It is not at one place in time: it is for the righteous for ALL TIME. Once again, Jesus was the firstfruits of this resurrection. 
Since there are only TWO resurrections by title, which one was Jesus the firstfruits of? 

WHAT? When the people are resurrected from death to life, as in the dead in Christ at Paul's rapture, they get resurrection bodies that will NEVER die. 

You are mistaken. 

Perhaps you don't get it. 

Those who are in the first resurrection died during the tribulation when they were killed for thier testimony of Christ and they did not worship the beast or recieve his mark. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-4.htm

The rest of the dead live not again till the 1000 years are complete. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-5.htm

Unless you would like to rewrite revelation for you own personal use, you should except it as it is. 

I would advise you to believe the revelation which God gave to christ to show us. 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[John n Claudia]

12 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 I think that you would be hard pressed to find even 5% of the population of the United States saying that they are feeling peaceful or that they are living in a period of safety  And somehow you think it will get better sometime after the Day of the Lord has started, then the 70th week? 

iamlamad,

Right now there are not very many people who are saying that the earth is peaceful, so if this is a requirement for Jesus' return, it cannot happen right now.  I also did not say that it will get better after the Day of the Lord has started.  In fact once that day gets here, there will be even less peace than there is now.

What I said is that after the Battle of Armageddon and after the empire of the Antichrist has killed the two witnesses, the empire will be very happy.  They have defeated all of their external and internal enemies and will celebrate by sending gifts to each other.  They will look back at the previous seven years and breathe a collective sigh of relief because they believe that all the troubles they encountered during those years is now behind them and they have a glorious 1000 year kingdom to look forward to.  This is when they are feeling peaceful and this is the Day of the Lord when Christ will return.

 

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Could we PLEASE just follow the text rather than human reasoning or imagination? First, lets find where the days of GT are found in Revelation. What will CAUSE those days of Great Tribulation (GT)? John tells us, it will be the forced bowing to an image (think Nebuchadnezzar) and the force mark of the Beast: both with the threat of losing the head. AT the same time, an angel warning all in their own language that those who take the mark will be doomed to fire and brimstone forever. Therefore GREAT PRESSURE (i.e. GT) will be put upon people to run, hide, don't get caught!  AT the same time, no water to drink, and the only water fit to drink is in stores, where those running from the mark cannot go. These are the days of great tribulation (GT) Jesus spoke of. (Rev. 13) WHO will cause those days? It will be the Beast and False Prophet, who are written about in Rev. 13. the beast will not be revealed as the beast until the abomination in chapter 11.

I do not think that John ever tells us what causes the days of the Great Tribulation.  As far as I can tell, John only tells us what will happen, not the reason that those things will happen.  For example, John tells us that with the first bowl, the citizens of the beast empire will be afflicted with boils, but he does not tell us why they are afflicted.  It might be because the chose to worship the beast rather than God.  It might be because they have been persecuting the Jews.  There are many reasons this could happen, but we are not told the cause, so any guess on our part is just speculation.

One thing that I have learned is that I must be careful with my terms.  Under most definitions, the beast is the empire and the person who is the emperor of the beast is the Antichrist.  It is the Antichrist, the leader, who will be revealed at the abomination, not the empire.  I have had to correct my understanding of the last days multiple times because I got sloppy with my terminology and this confused my thinking.  After I became consistent with my terms and definitions, things became much more clear.

 

36 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

(Some people imagine the days of GT Jesus spoke of in the seals. They are miles off from truth. The beheaded only begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15!)WHERE THEN IS GOD'S WRATH?  We see His wrath starting with the DAY of His wrath, at the 6th seal, chapter 6. The trumpet judgments and vials come after this start of the Day of the Lord. I submit, BOTH the trumpets and vials are a part of God's wrath. In other words:
God's wrath goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16 in Revelation. And without a doubt Jesus will have wrath at Armageddon in chapter 19. 

I thought that everyone, regardless of their pre, mid or post-tribulation position believed that the Wrath of God started with the return of Jesus to punish His enemies.  If this is true, then the Wrath of God cannot possibly start until after Revelation 16:12 where Jesus tells us that His coming is still in the future.

In addition to the confusion caused by conflating the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God, I have found that a lot of confusion regarding the last days is caused by the belief that the events described in Revelation are going to occur chronologically in the same order that they are listed in the book.  That is the events of chapter 6 precede the events of chapter 7 which precede the events of chapter 8.  There are multiple problems with this approach, the biggest one being that doing this requires much more time than the 3.5 or 7 years that are allotted to the last few years before Jesus returns.  After all, the locusts in chapter 9 take 5 months, the witnesses in chapter 11 take 42 months, the woman in chapter 12 spends another 42 months in the desert, and the mouth of the beast in chapter 13 speaks blasphemies for another 42 months.  These events by themselves take up nearly 11 years and do not leave any time for the other trumpets or any of the bowls.  Adding in all the time required for 1/3 of the forests to burn, 1/3 of the seas to turn to blood, the Euphrates to dry up, the king of the east to march out with a 200 Million person army and all of the other listed events, we have to be talking about 20 or 30 years.  Adding in the events described in Daniel chapter 11 and the wars with the kings of the north, south and east, will extend the timeline even further and all of this still does not explain why the people will be saying there is peace when Jesus does return.

The Book of Revelation is a prophetical book, not a historical book.  Historical books are written chronologically, but prophetical books are not.  We can see this more easily in Ezekiel where chapter 36 tells us what will happen at the end of the Great Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom, chapter 37 tells us about the return of the Jews to the Holy Land in 1948, chapter 38 tells us what will happen at the end of the Millennial Kingdom and chapter 39 returns to the end of the Great Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom.  The visions given to Ezekiel bounce back and forth between different time periods, so there is precedence to believe that the visions in Revelation also bounce back and forth.

You will never be able to make sense of the events in Revelation and you will encounter contradiction after contradiction with any interpretation until you are able to see that the events between chapters 8 and 16 cannot possibly occur chronologically.

 

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On 8/22/2020 at 2:51 PM, John n Claudia said:

A couple months ago, I was encouraged to reexamine my beliefs and question my every assumption about what would happen during the last few years before Jesus returns.  I spent much of this time in prayer, asking God for wisdom and insight and searching the scriptures to see what they have to say about this time.

During my studies, I realized that Jesus returning as a thief is not a problem for a pre-tribulation rapture because Jesus returns as a thief without any warning to rapture his church.  Jesus returning again to at Armageddon in order to defeat the armies waiting for him does not have to be a surprise because the surprise already occurred years earlier.

In contrast with this, the post-tribulation rapture theory has a problem because Jesus has not yet returned as a thief when people are not expecting Him.  As an experiment, I asked a dozen people, most of whom know nothing about the Bible, what will happen at Armageddon.  Eleven of them started out by saying that was the time Jesus would return.  The one who did not start out that way said it is a battle of all the armies of the world.  When I asked if anything else would happen at that time, he then said "Oh yeah, Jesus will return to beat up everybody."  I know this is a small sample size, but I am confident that this is representative and Jesus returning at a time when the armies of the world are gathering in the plains of Megiddo would not surprise anybody.  This means that you can't have a post-tribulation rapture and have Jesus returning as a thief, when nobody is expecting Him, in order to fight the Battle of Armageddon.

Since I have searched too much scripture not to believe in a post-tribulation rapture followed by the Wrath of God, I have no choice but to also reject Jesus returning to fight the Battle of Armageddon.  Has anyone else out there reached this same conclusion?

 

Jesus returned as a thief at the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, but it was not a resurrection coming. It was a "coming" like lightning with the armies of Rome to destroy Jerusalem.

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The resurrection/rapture (resur/rapt) second coming for salvation is going to happen shortly.

The sign of the resur/rapt coming is the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel. (1967) 

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The confusion is not being able to separate the coming to destroy Jerusalem, from the resur/rapt coming for the kingdom which has yet to happen.

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