Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon is inconsistent with a post-tribulation rapture

[Shilohsfoal]

1 minute ago, luigi said:

Jerusalem ruling over all the world's nations is when the Lord commences to reign through His saints in Jerusalem, and the nation of Israel/Zion becomes the largest of mountains/nations in the world.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Jerusalem will be ruling over the nations that attack Jerusalem before they attack. 

The two witnesses will be attacking those nations as often as they want for 42 months. After the 42 months, the beast attacks the prostitute and strips her naked. 

While you will be waiting for them to attack NY, they will have already striped Jerusalem naked. 

[luigi]

4 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

This was true at the time John had his vision and wrote the prophecy.  Over 1900 years have passed since then and the other heads have also now had their day of prominence and passed away.

I see Rome/Italy having had their day of prominence end circa the fifth century AD. Japan, circa the 15th century. France's day of prominence ended in the 16th or 17th century. England's ended in the 19th century. Germany's short day of prominence throughout Europe ended in the 20th century. The U.S. is currently the G-7's prominent head. While this may mean that Canada still has a time of prominence ahead, I'm not totally sure on this. Additionally, the eighth head of the beast which carries the whore, I believe to be the nation of China who supplies the seven other heads of the beast with the vast majority of material goods they so love.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Diaste,

I agree with you that the Jews will not be subject to seven years of intense persecution and that the Great Tribulation is "only" the last 3.5 years before Jesus returns.  I have a very different view of the last days from that of everyone else.  My initial post here is a perfect example of that.  I do not believe that Jesus will come to rapture His Church until the end of the Great Tribulation.  I also believe that Jesus will not return at the Battle of Armageddon as I stated in my initial post.

As it written...

16 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

I also know that there are many very committed Christians who strongly believe that the Great Tribulation is all that is left and the first 3.5 years occurred in the past.  I have a very different position on this as well and believe that we still have seven years ahead of us where we will see the rise of the Antichrist for the first 3.5 years and then the Great Tribulation will begin after he overruns Jerusalem and throws the Jews in concentration camps scattered about his empire as per Zechariah 14.  I personally believe that much of the first 3.5 years of the Antichrist will consist of him consolidating his power and it will only be close to the beginning of the Great Tribulation that he declares war on Israel and conquers them at the time of the Abomination.  Because of this, I try to be very careful in how I phrase things.  I do not refer to a "seven year tribulation", but rather "the years of the Antichrist".  I also only use the Great Tribulation to refer to the last 3.5 years.

Again, this is what the scriptures saith.

16 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

I disagree with the belief that the Great Tribulation will be less than the 1260 days mentioned in Daniel for the Great Tribulation or the 1290 days after the Abomination.  Therefore, I cannot agree with Jesus returning and rapturing His Church prior to these days that Daniel tells us.  I believe that things will happen as described, the Great Tribulation will begin 30 days after the Abomination and last 1260 days.  After that, Jesus will return to rapture the Church and establish the Millennial Kingdom.

I suppose that's possible. But Jesus did say,

"And except those days were cut short there would be no flesh saved, but for the elects sake those days are cut short."

Speaking of the days of GT. So the last of the week runs its course but the trial by fire at the hand of Satan is ended before the end of the week. 

16 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

As i said, Jesus coming as a thief at the Battle of Armageddon is a big problem for the post-tribulation theory and since i cannot reject post-tribulation, I have to reject Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon.

And if its shown GT is only a period within the last half of the week then Jesus can come post trib. You said you don't refer to the week as the Tribulation and that's proper and accurate. That would mean you don't believe in a 7 year trib, which is correct. And it's not 3.5 years either. No scripture says it lasts any specific amount of time.

16 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

 

We are to gather fact from mankind and then use the scriptures to interpret that fact.  I do not think that anyone on these forums or indeed anywhere in the world would deny that the Christian teaching is that Jesus is going to return at the Battle of Armageddon and that if such a battle were to take place, then Jesus would return at that time.

Here is my logic:

• Unbelievers believe that Jesus will return at the Battle of Armageddon
• Therefore, when armies gather on the planes of Megiddo to do battle, unbelievers will expect Jesus to return at that time
• If Jesus returns at the Battle of Armageddon he is returning at a time when the unbeliever expect Him

These first three things flow directly from human expectations.  Now we need to bring in scripture to see the flaw.

• In scriptures, Jesus told us that He would return at a time that the unbelievers do not expect.

Since scripture tells us that Jesus will return when people do not expect Him and people will expect Him at Armageddon, this means that Jesus cannot return.  Rather than using fact from mankind to override scripture, I am using fact from scripture to override mankind.

 

But Jesus referred to a day and hour not a general time. In fact he said we could discern the time, just not the exact moment. We won't know the day of the week or the hour of that day but when we see Jerusalem compasses by armies we are to look up as our redemption is near, says Luke.

So it's not that anyone can discern the moment but the times and events will show nearness to the 2nd coming. 

I would submit the armies are gathered at the threshold of Jerusalem specifically to fight against the Lord. 

[John n Claudia]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Quote

I disagree with the belief that the Great Tribulation will be less than the 1260 days mentioned in Daniel for the Great Tribulation or the 1290 days after the Abomination.  Therefore, I cannot agree with Jesus returning and rapturing His Church prior to these days that Daniel tells us.  I believe that things will happen as described, the Great Tribulation will begin 30 days after the Abomination and last 1260 days.  After that, Jesus will return to rapture the Church and establish the Millennial Kingdom.

I suppose that's possible. But Jesus did say,

"And except those days were cut short there would be no flesh saved, but for the elects sake those days are cut short."

Speaking of the days of GT. So the last of the week runs its course but the trial by fire at the hand of Satan is ended before the end of the week. 

Diaste,

Cutting short could mean either that the number of days was reduced or the activities that would occur during those days was reduced.  For example, I have been in many meetings and conferences that were running long and were "cut short" by eliminating elements that were on the agenda so that it could finish as per the original schedule.  I believe the days were cut short by the removal of what the seven thunders said, not by the removal of days from what was prophesied in Daniel.

I also believe that the week runs its full course and the trial by fire at the hand of Satan continues all the way until the end.  In my scenario, the empire of the Antichrist has already defeated the kings of the north and south and heads out to battle China, the king of the east with its 200 Million person army at the Battle of Armageddon.  Religious institutions all around the world are declaring the Antichrist is Isa/Jesus of the Muslim/Christian religions who will defeat all his enemies and establish the Millennial Kingdom.  Both sides of the battle are controlled by Satan and he will use this battle to convince the world that the Antichrist is the Isa/Jesus when he defeats his last enemy in order to start a 1000 year reign.

The Jews and faithful Christians who have not been killed within the empire of the Antichrist were already in concentration camps awaiting their death and those outside his empire are subject to ridicule, scorn and all types of persecution.  After the Antichrist defeats the Chinese by calling down fire from heaven, his secret police round up the few Jews and true Christians who are left, killing them and leaving their bodies rotting in the streets.  Outside the empire of the Antichrist, in the Americas and elsewhere, only the truly elect realize that this is exactly what was prophesied.  Everyone else will believe that since the Antichrist won at Armageddon, he must be Isa/Jesus and they fall down to worship him as God. 

With this much pressure to conform by the rest of the world, the trial by fire continues all the way until Jesus returns 3.5 days after the bodies are left in the streets and the rapture happens.  But it is only those who endure all the way to the end who are saved and raptured.

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

And if its shown GT is only a period within the last half of the week then Jesus can come post trib. You said you don't refer to the week as the Tribulation and that's proper and accurate. That would mean you don't believe in a 7 year trib, which is correct. And it's not 3.5 years either. No scripture says it lasts any specific amount of time.

I believe that there will be a seven year period where the Antichrist is active on the Earth.  The first 3.5 years minus 30 days (exactly), the Antichrist will be building up his empire.  At the abomination, 1290 actual days before the return of the real Jesus, he will conquer Jerusalem and religious leaders will declare that he is the Isa/Jesus mentioned in my scenario above.  It takes 30 days to establish the concentration camps and transport the captured Jews and Christians who do not accept the Antichrist as God to these camps where they endure the Great Tribulation for the next 1260 actual days.  These days come directly from Daniel.  The last of the people in the camps are slaughtered 1256.5 days later, 3.5 days before the real Jesus returns as per Revelation 11:11.  Then after the final 3.5 days, the two witnesses, the Jews and Christians in these concentration camps stand up and are raptured followed by the rest of the Church who remained faithful to the God of Heaven.

There is no need to change the number of days in Daniel.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

But Jesus referred to a day and hour not a general time. In fact he said we could discern the time, just not the exact moment. We won't know the day of the week or the hour of that day but when we see Jerusalem compasses by armies we are to look up as our redemption is near, says Luke.

So it's not that anyone can discern the moment but the times and events will show nearness to the 2nd coming. 

I would submit the armies are gathered at the threshold of Jerusalem specifically to fight against the Lord. 

When we see Jerusalem compassed by armies, we will know that the abomination is about to occur and there are only 3.5 years left before Jesus returns.  I believe that once we see the abomination we will be able to start a calendar counting down the exact number of days.  We will not know at what time that day Jesus will return, but we ill know the day.  This day will then be confirmed when we see the dead bodies lying in Jerusalem and we will know that there are only 3.5 more days that we have to endure. 

1 Thessalonians 5:2 is often used to support a pre-tribulation rapture.  The Holy Spirit showed me that this actually shows that we will know the exact day because we are not supposed to stop this passage at verse 2.

1But you have no need to have anything written to you, brothers, about the times and dates when this will happen; 2because you yourselves well know that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

3When people are saying, “Everything is so peaceful and secure,” then destruction will suddenly come upon them, the way labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there is no way they will escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in the dark, so that the Day should take you by surprise like a thief; (1 Thessalonians 5:1 – 4, CJB)

This passage is talking about the exact timing of when Jesus is going to return.  Verse 3 tells us "people are saying that everything is peaceful and secure".  If Jesus is going to return at the Battle of Armageddon and people all around the world are seeing armies gathering in the plains of Megiddo, they would not be saying that everything is peaceful and secure.

Under my scenario however, the Battle of Armageddon is in the past so the antichrist has defeated all of the external enemies to his empire.  The two witnesses in the concentration camps were just killed 3.5 days earlier so the antichrist has defeated all of the internal enemies to his empire.  There is celebration throughout the land because the wars to unify the empire and then defend it from the kings of the north, south and east have finally finished.  There has also been massive forest fires, water turning to blood killing fish and disrupting shipping, a pandemic where sores broke out throughout the empire.  Seven years years of extreme trouble have finally come to an end and everyone is looking forward to a bright future where they are the preeminent nation ruling the world for the next 1000 years.  They are celebrating and giving gifts to each other (Revelation 11:10).

It is at this point that Jesus finally returns and only the elect who have remained faithful until the end will have seen this coming and be saved.  Everyone else will be surprised, but Jesus comes as a thief when nobody but those who will remain faithful are expecting him.

[iamlamad]

On 8/22/2020 at 3:31 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

PS. 

According to scripture the first resurrection is of those who were killed for testifying of Christ and who did not worship the beast or recieve its mark. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-4.htm

It's going to be kinda hard for you to convince me that you will be raptured before the dead in Christ rise at the first resurrection of those who are killed during the tribulation. 

I suspect you are thinking "first" as in the first resurrection is speaking of TIMING. If so, you are missing it: it is first in priority or honor. It is for ALL the righteous, and Jesus was first fruits of this resurrection way back nearly 2000 years ago. it is NOT a resurrection JUST for those killed during the tribulation: that, perhaps, will be the last wave of those who are in this "first" or chief of resurrections.

Many people imagine this resurrection happens ONCE at the end of the 70th week. Sorry, that is not what is written. There are only two resurrection titles, this one and then the "second death" resurrection. 

Jesus' resurrection therefore had to be a part of one of these two. I can assure you, His resurrection was not a part of that 'second death" resurrection. It had to be, therefore, the firstfruits of the "first" resurrection: first in honor and first in time; but for all the righteous of all time. 

[iamlamad]

On 8/22/2020 at 2:51 PM, John n Claudia said:

A couple months ago, I was encouraged to reexamine my beliefs and question my every assumption about what would happen during the last few years before Jesus returns.  I spent much of this time in prayer, asking God for wisdom and insight and searching the scriptures to see what they have to say about this time.

During my studies, I realized that Jesus returning as a thief is not a problem for a pre-tribulation rapture because Jesus returns as a thief without any warning to rapture his church.  Jesus returning again to at Armageddon in order to defeat the armies waiting for him does not have to be a surprise because the surprise already occurred years earlier.

In contrast with this, the post-tribulation rapture theory has a problem because Jesus has not yet returned as a thief when people are not expecting Him.  As an experiment, I asked a dozen people, most of whom know nothing about the Bible, what will happen at Armageddon.  Eleven of them started out by saying that was the time Jesus would return.  The one who did not start out that way said it is a battle of all the armies of the world.  When I asked if anything else would happen at that time, he then said "Oh yeah, Jesus will return to beat up everybody."  I know this is a small sample size, but I am confident that this is representative and Jesus returning at a time when the armies of the world are gathering in the plains of Megiddo would not surprise anybody.  This means that you can't have a post-tribulation rapture and have Jesus returning as a thief, when nobody is expecting Him, in order to fight the Battle of Armageddon.

Since I have searched too much scripture not to believe in a post-tribulation rapture followed by the Wrath of God, I have no choice but to also reject Jesus returning to fight the Battle of Armageddon.  Has anyone else out there reached this same conclusion?

 

Problem: posttribbers will find it impossible to get to the marriage and supper in heaven. "oh! NO PROBLEM" they say, the marriage and supper will be on earth after the rapture."  

That is how easy it is for some to CHANGE with is written to fit their pet theory. 

Axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

If I am mistaken, please show us all HOW you are going to get up to heaven for the marriage and supper. It will be NO PROBLEM for pretribbers, for we will spend the entire 7 years IN HEAVEN and will already be there for the marraige. 

Next, many imagine they can count 1260 days from the abomination and know the day Jesus will come. NOT! He does not come on the last day of the week (the 7th vial marks that day). He will come some UNKNOWN time after the week ends. The events of chapters 17 & 18 and the marriage take place after the week and before He comes to Armageddon. 

[Shilohsfoal]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I suspect you are thinking "first" as in the first resurrection is speaking of TIMING. If so, you are missing it: it is first in priority or honor. It is for ALL the righteous, and Jesus was first fruits of this resurrection way back nearly 2000 years ago. it is NOT a resurrection JUST for those killed during the tribulation: that, perhaps, will be the last wave of those who are in this "first" or chief of resurrections.

Many people imagine this resurrection happens ONCE at the end of the 70th week. Sorry, that is not what is written. There are only two resurrection titles, this one and then the "second death" resurrection. 

Jesus' resurrection therefore had to be a part of one of these two. I can assure you, His resurrection was not a part of that 'second death" resurrection. It had to be, therefore, the firstfruits of the "first" resurrection: first in honor and first in time; but for all the righteous of all time. 

No, first as in the first of two resurrections in Revelation. 

The first takes place before the 1000 years and the last takes place after the 1000 years. 

Those who are resurrected in the first resurrection die during the tribulation. These who died in Christ are rewarded for overcoming the beast as Jesus promised and they shall reign with him as he promised. 

The rest of the dead live not again till the 1000 years is fulfilled. 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[iamlamad]

On 8/22/2020 at 3:58 PM, John n Claudia said:

Shilohsfoal,

I agree that the Great Tribulation starts 42 months before Jesus returns and this will be a time of trouble for both the Jews and the (capital C) Church.  I also agree that those who listen to His voice will not be deceived and they will not be surprised when Jesus does return.

My point was that everybody, especially the nonbelievers "know" that Jesus is coming at Armageddon.  Since everybody "knows" this, Jesus returning then will not surprise anyone.  Jesus can't come as a thief when nobody is expecting Him if he comes when there are armies waiting for Him and everybody all around the world is expecting Him.

As far as the rapture is concerned, I am very much in the post-tribulation camp with one rapture where the dead in Christ rise first.  All of this happens 42 months after the start of the Great Tribulation and 43 months after the Abomination that causes desolation.

If we go by what is written, and not imagination, it is written that no man knows the DAY or the HOUR. Pretribbers expect His coming for the rapture NOW, and if not NOW, tonight, and if not tonight, tomorrow. But we don't know the day nor the hour. For Armageddon it will be the same. They will be expecting Him, but won't know exactly WHEN. They won't know what day or what hour of the day. 

Again, I hope you explain to us all how you are going to get to heaven for the marriage and supper. 

[John n Claudia]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If I am mistaken, please show us all HOW you are going to get up to heaven for the marriage and supper. It will be NO PROBLEM for pretribbers, for we will spend the entire 7 years IN HEAVEN and will already be there for the marraige. 

Iamlamad,

Please read my last post where I outlined the events on the earth preceding the rapture.  After the rapture and the church has helped deliver the Wrath of God on an unrepentant world, Jesus and the raptured saints all go up to New Jerusalem.  It is there that the marriage and supper takes place.

One thing that many people do not understand is that while the Church will rule and reign with Christ, we will not be doing this on the earth.  The promise to rule and reign on the earth was made to the Jews, not the Church.  After the Wrath of God is finished and the Millennial Kingdom set up, the Jews, led by the prince in Ezekiel will rule and reign on the earth while the Church rules and reigns up in the houses that Jesus went to prepare for us 2000 years ago.

Paul tells us that the promises made to the Church are much, much better than the promises made to the Jews.  I would rather believe what the Bible says will happen and not try to take over a promise that was made to someone else and which is inferior to the promise made to me.

[John n Claudia]

22 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If we go by what is written, and not imagination, it is written that no man knows the DAY or the HOUR. Pretribbers expect His coming for the rapture NOW, and if not NOW, tonight, and if not tonight, tomorrow. But we don't know the day nor the hour. For Armageddon it will be the same. They will be expecting Him, but won't know exactly WHEN. They won't know what day or what hour of the day. 

Iamlamd,

I agree with what you said about the pre-tribulation theory.    I also pointed out, in the post that started this thread, that the post-tribulation theory has a problem because Jesus coming at the Battle of Armageddon negates the idea that nobody will know the day nor hour.  This is exactly why I have had to reject the idea that Jesus comes at the Battle of Armageddon.  There is just to much scriptural evidence that He comes at the end of the Great Tribulation and every pre-tribulation argument I have seen has fatal flaws.

Again, please read my post where I outline the events of the last days that fulfills 1 Thessalonians 5:1 - 4.  Then tell me how a pre-tribulation theory can work.  In other words, why will people be saying that there is peace.  I would like to understand how there will be peace in either of the following two situations:

• Right before the pre-tribulation rapture with all the trouble that is occurring and will continue to occur with the rise of China trying to battle the United States as a superpower, COVID-19, the George Floyd protests, the California forest fires and whatever it is that is coming next. 
• Right before the Battle of Armageddon when armies of the world, including a 200 Million person army from the king of the east, are gathering to fight the battle to end the world.